[Premium Article] Innovations - Blame it on the Counterbalance

[undone]

Foil is garbage, and it is stupid to bring up such a corner-case card. 'goyf doesn't just make creatures smaller than him worse. All creatures do that. He makes almost any creature that is not a 4/5 for 2 mana unplayable. Psychatog was amazing in his day. That was before Tarmogoyf said "1/2 for 3 in two different colors that can be pumped? How about an easily splashable 4/5 or 5/6 for 2?" Same with Werebear "A 1/1 for 2 that taps for mana and becomes a 4/4? Why not a creature that is almost guaranteed to start larger every single time?"

If you think this is how the game should work then I feel sorry for you. Now nothing wizards prints will be good enough to play, unless it is better than a Tarmogoyf. So I hope you like him guys, cause nothing is going to replace him for a long long time.

Just because there are more creatures than free counter magic doesnt change my point. Either FoW AND goyf are bad for the format as they invalidated the next best option, OR neither are. As above there are tons of examples, you chose to ignore them and dismiss them, that doesnt mean its not ture. I believe its the latter case when it comes to goyf. You can still play flame toung, shreikmaw, and heck even wear bare did well it just had goyf along side. Being the best creature doesnt mean it invalidates other options after all you can only play 4 and you need more than that to win games.

Goyf is good but most definately NOT broken.

[raharu]

I thought for a long time that Goyf should be banned, but two things changed my mind.
If you argument that Goyf goes in so many decks, than you should argue with cards like FoW too. Is it just because green got a stable? You may add green for the package of Goyf and Grip to you freshly build deck, you may also add blue for FoW, BS, Daze and Ponder to your deck so what?

I have to disagree with that. In order to fit in the 'Threshold Package', you have to dedicate a large portion of your deck to Blue. Force of Will doesn't simply fucking splash into any deck, and adding in the rest of the 'Threshold Package' eats at least 16 slots and still won't give you a large enough blue count.

Saying that Goyf basically reads '1U' (put it in every blue deck) is not the problem of Goyf, its the problem of blue, bringing so many poweful cards and mechanics to the table.

Well, blue is a color that you have to dedicate the deck to, so it's balanced. Blue doesn't splash. Tarmogoyf does, easily and frequently. Paralleling Blue and Tarmogoyf is really... well, it's not accurate. Not even close.

It seems like you just don't like walking into Force and Daze.

[Volt]

flame toung, shreikmaw, and heck even wear bare

Congrats. That was impressive.

[raharu]

Just because there are more creatures than free counter magic doesnt change my point. Either FoW AND goyf are bad for the format as they invalidated the next best option, OR neither are. As above there are tons of examples, you chose to ignore them and dismiss them, that doesnt mean its not true.

You fail to recognize that the alternatives to Tarmogoyf were actually relevant before it appeared. Foil and the corner-case nonsense you dredged up weren't, aren't, and most likely never will be, even in the absence of Force of Will. Tarmogoyf and Force of Will are drastically different cases, and to treat them the same and demand that the judgment of each be mutually inclusive is an ignorant argument, ignoring the basic facts.

[deadlock]

Okay, i admit FoW was a bad example, take BS / Ponder instead. Also consider that FoW is around for a very long time compared to Goyf, so it may feel more "natural" to have it.

Another relevant question is, what archtypes became unviable / destroyed since Goyf? Psychatog wasnt relevant before, the only deck i am currently come up with is madness (dont know if it was remotly good).

Sure he obsoleted some creatures, foremost Werbear in ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh, which actually sees play again because of Natural Order / Progenitus and people moving to more cmc 3 cards in Thresh.
This Troll Ascetic dude maybe saw play in Rock, i dont know.. i just dont get the feeling that he kicked that many played(!) creatures out of the theme.

It seems like you just don't like walking into Force and Daze.

Yes i dont like when my spells dont resolve, but i also wouldnt touch a deck that doesnt start with 4 FoW...

[Isamaru]

I know everyone's sort of sick of this discussion, but I'll just say that it's not only that Tarmogoyf invalidated creatures... it's that it invalidates creatures and also gets to "oops I win" games where the opponent can't find/resolve an answer or a Goyf of their own.

Anyway. While I still don't think Tarmogoyf will be banned, I think it probably should be and it would probably make the format more interesting. Not to mention, cheaper. Heck, there was a time when Dark Ritual- Phyrexian Negator was a good play...

mhmm, good point

[frogboy]

Jitte was far more distorting than Tarmogoyf is. Blossom in Block wasn't as bad as Jitte, but I think it was still worse.

[raharu]

Okay, i admit FoW was a bad example, take BS / Ponder instead. Also consider that FoW is around for a very long time compared to Goyf, so it may feel more "natural" to have it.

Another relevant question is, what archtypes became unviable / destroyed since Goyf? Psychatog wasnt relevant before, the only deck i am currently come up with is madness (dont know if it was remotly good).

Sure he obsoleted some creatures, foremost Werbear in ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh, which actually sees play again because of Natural Order / Progenitus and people moving to more cmc 3 cards in Thresh.
This Troll Ascetic dude maybe saw play in Rock, i dont know.. i just dont get the feeling that he kicked that many played(!) creatures out of the theme.


Yes i dont like when my spells dont resolve, but i also wouldnt touch a deck that doesnt start with 4 FoW...

Card selection doesn't warp the format, and decks still don't splash for Brainstorm and Ponder. You aren't really making a point.

[Volt]

Jitte was far more distorting than Tarmogoyf is. Blossom in Block wasn't as bad as Jitte, but I think it was still worse.

The reason it isn't "distorting," at least in the traditional sense in which that word applies to our silly little card game, is because almost every deck can and does play it. It hasn't polarized the format into "play goyf" vs "beat goyf." It's pretty much just "play goyf." That's why I made I made the analogy to Mr. Smith in The Matrix sequels earlier. It's like Tarmogoyf just went around to all the different decks in Legacy, touching them and converting them into goyf decks. It hasn't distorted the format so much as infested it.

[Bardo]

Tarmogoyf is one of the few cards that actually makes green worth playing.

Blue has Force of Will, Brainstorm and Ponder; Black has Thoughtseize, Dark Ritual, Tombstalker and Dark Confidant; White has Swords to Plowshares (that's about it); Red has REB and Pyroclasm? Actually, Red has a lot of powerful cards, they're just "build-around-me's," rather than auto-includes; you can't throw Magus of the Moon, Goblin Ringleader, Burning Wish, Price of Progress into any old deck that runs red.

Basically, Tarmogoyf is to green what Swords to Plowshares is to White: a saving grace to an otherwise shit color. He just happens to be a beater, which is green's raison d'etre.

Like all of the Legacy staples, Tarmogoyf is extremely efficient for its cost. That's what makes it a staple. And I haven't heard anyone clamoring for Brainstorm to be banned so they can play Counsel of the Soratami. Staples make other cards obsolete. There's no reason to play Disrupting Shoal when you can play Force of Will (see also, Condemn vs. Swords to Plowshares). Again, staples make other cards obsolete.

It seems that the underlying objection to the "ban Goyf" crowd is that he's a win condition in his own right, unlike Thoughtseize, etc. He's green, what do you expect?

[Volt]

He's green, what do you expect?

But he isn't green. Not really.

[Michael Keller]

Tarmogoyf may be green, but that doesn't necessarily claim it as the "be all and end all" of green. I think at the time when Tarmogoyf was released, green itself wasn't a very strong color (except in mono-Stompy variants which saw occasional play). Ever since then, when you think about green in Magic, you really think about Tarmogoyf - he's just that good. Magic was a game created primarily using the attack phase and he's just arguably the best creature per-cost, per-average P/T ever (excluding Phyrexian Dreadnought).

But I wouldn't classify him as a staple. I just think people want to create decks that don't necessarily need him. Most people have the misconception that he serves as an "alternate win condition". I believe this to be a fallacy. He dies to Terror and just about every removal spell there is. And how often is it you play against an opponent who is unprepared to handle the attack phase? If you throw Tarmogoyf in your deck because you need to fill slots, then that's fine. But ultimately, you need to weigh down whether or not he bogs the overall strategy and purpose of your deck down or acts as an important compliment to the whole concept.

Chances are, if you have four available slots open by the time you finish tweaking a competitive deck, then your deck should already be well-oiled and ready to go. This is where Tarmogoyf works best; chomping at the bits to make his way into another competitive round of Magic.

[Illuvator Brightstar]

Silly question, but when does the DCI announce bannings anyway? I know it's this month, but what day of the month? Or does it vary?

[Atwa]

Silly question, but when does the DCI announce bannings anyway? I know it's this month, but what day of the month? Or does it vary?

Normally the 21st if my memory serves me right.

EDIT: My memory didn't serve me right.....

[Bardo]

Silly question, but when does the DCI announce bannings anyway? I know it's this month, but what day of the month? Or does it vary?

March 20.

@ Hollywood - Do you disagree with this statement: "Tarmogoyf is the best green card ever created that's legal in Legacy?" I'm speaking in general terms, since there may be excellent flagship cards (Argothian Enchantress) that fit into a very limited number of decks.

The most telling thing is the number of Goyfs in the T8 of the GP: Chicago.

Tarmogoyf: 24
Dark Confidant: 10

Brainstorm: 16
Force of Will: 12
Dark Ritual: 12
Sensei's Divining Top: 11
Counterbalance: 8
Swords to Plowshares: 8
Spell Snare: 7

Fucking nutty.

Six of the T8 decks ran playsets of Tarmogoyf. One other T8 deck was creatureless; the other was mono-red. The two finalist decks both ran 8 Goyfs between them.

BTW, I don't think Goyf should be banned. It's just really, really good at winning games.

@ Volt - True. He's more blue than green. Still. I also agree that he's dumbed down deck construction a bit. That's true of all the Legacy staples (Brainstorm, FOW, etc.)

[frogboy]

Do you disagree with this statement: "Tarmogoyf is the best green card ever created?" I'm speaking in general terms, since there may be excellent flagship cards (Argothian Enchantress) that fit into a very limited number of decks.

It's not really fair to not be allowed to includes cards like Oath, Channel, Enchantress, and so on. He's the best 'fair' green card, sure.

Yeah, I was thinking "Best Legacy-legal green" card; not "ever." Personally, I blame the alcohol. Oath > Goyf. - Bardo

almost every deck can and does play it.

If you were playing an aggro mirror during this period and your opponent had Jitte and you didn't, you were a gigantic dog unless your opponent was terrible or didn't draw any creatures. Tarmogoyf is usually the best card in RG mirrors due to size, but it's usually just a random threat in other aggro matchups.

And yeah, there were control decks that ran Jitte.

The comparison to Plow is pretty accurate.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Format warping in Standard is really a very different creature than in Legacy. The former changes every, what, three to four months usually? It's part of the scene. Legacy is supposed to be more wide open- at least that's what's attractive about the format.

It has nothing to do with "broken". Banning Tarmogoyf would make the format more interesting by opening up a lot of exciting new cards that it's supressing. I don't think you can say the same about Ponder.

[Omega]

Once goyfs goes away, Threshold as a deck will die. (Werebear + Nimble mongoose won't make it, since Relic of Progenitus is so good)
Goblin will rise back to the top.
And we will go back to our old format of Goblins.
Of course, people don't like goblins. Neither do I.
Why isn't Goblin dominating as it used to?
Because there are Tarmogoyf
Combo and Landstill were always present back in the days. They did improve.
NLU, or decks that relied heavily on Goyfs will likely die. They won't have that 2cc kill condiiton anymore

[scrow213]

Once goyfs goes away, Threshold as a deck will die. (Werebear + Nimble mongoose won't make it, since Relic of Progenitus is so good)
Goblin will rise back to the top.
And we will go back to our old format of Goblins.
Of course, people don't like goblins. Neither do I.
Why isn't Goblin dominating as it used to?
Because there are Tarmogoyf
Combo and Landstill were always present back in the days. They did improve.
NLU, or decks that relied heavily on Goyfs will likely die. They won't have that 2cc kill condiiton anymore

Relic hurts Tarmogoyf more than Werebear or Nimble Mongoose. If Tarmogoyf is gone, it opens a plethora of other playable creatures and strategies, and makes CB + Top less of a powerhouse. It would diversify the meta and give people a lot more options. I mean right now you have what? Tribal, Combo, or some variant of 'goyf aggro-control. Sounds like fun to me.

[Isamaru]

Tarmogoyf may be green, but that doesn't necessarily claim it as the "be all and end all" of green. I think at the time when Tarmogoyf was released, green itself wasn't a very strong color (except in mono-Stompy variants which saw occasional play). Ever since then, when you think about green in Magic, you really think about Tarmogoyf - he's just that good. Magic was a game created primarily using the attack phase and he's just arguably the best creature per-cost, per-average P/T ever (excluding Phyrexian Dreadnought).

But I wouldn't classify him as a staple. I just think people want to create decks that don't necessarily need him. Most people have the misconception that he serves as an "alternate win condition". I believe this to be a fallacy. He dies to Terror and just about every removal spell there is. And how often is it you play against an opponent who is unprepared to handle the attack phase? If you throw Tarmogoyf in your deck because you need to fill slots, then that's fine. But ultimately, you need to weigh down whether or not he bogs the overall strategy and purpose of your deck down or acts as an important compliment to the whole concept.

Chances are, if you have four available slots open by the time you finish tweaking a competitive deck, then your deck should already be well-oiled and ready to go. This is where Tarmogoyf works best; chomping at the bits to make his way into another competitive round of Magic.

Okay, one more time: It doesn't matter if you play a ton of answers to Tarmogoyf, you will still lose to it if you can't find them and resolve them quickly.

Some good points have been brought up in this thread - it's not that he's broken, but it would make things a bit more interesting [TIBA]. It's not a distortion, it's an infestation [Volt].