Originally Posted by kroelai
Dark Ritual doesn't make you discard your hand, that is the key point.
The main argurement against LED is that you have to discard your hand in order to use it which gives you no protection.
Thats why I was saying you really have to run white for chant b/c duress/thoughtseize doesn't cut it a lot of times.
~Shriek~
I don't see the point. So? It's also not an artifact. It doesn't cost 0. It doesn't necessarily create hellbent. Doesn't mean it's bad to run LED.
Chant, Duress and Thoughtseize work fine with LED. The only thing that doesn't work, that is not horrible to play is Pact. Which is worse than playing with LED and other protection.
True.
So? We have dual lands and fetch lands in the format.
Team Nijmegen
Does this thread involve Ad Nauseum decks with red in it?
For Burning wish and rite of flame and good SB-cards like pyroblast and shattering spree.
Has anyone considered running 4 divining tops and 1 or more locket of yesterdays? With 1 top in the graveyard and locket + 2 tops in play, you get infinite storm count. Divining tops wouldn't be bad in the deck anyway, would they?
-How will you get 1 Top in the GY? The only answer I see is LED.
-Locket is a really bad card you practically can't tutor for.
-Infinite storm is useless, if you can create 9.
-You want to play a 6 card combo? With 1 piece you can tutor for and 3 copies of the same card?
Top itself isn't bad in the deck. Though I think it's not the best option.
Team Nijmegen
A substitute for locket would be helm of awakening. Since the deck plans to go off early, it probably doesn't help your opponent too much. Granted, it's a bad card too, and costs 1 more than locket, but you wouldn't need to get the top in the graveyard that way. Helm also makes your cabal rituals good.
Have people been reaching 9 storm with ease?
The combo would be supplementary to what's already in the deck. Since tops are not bad anyway, you're really only needing to make room for the helm/locket. I concede that if you really, really don't want tops in your deck anyway, that this isn't a good idea.
Hybrid lists which also run Doomsday have a Helm of Awakening and Grapeshot/Brain Freeze in the SB. A Doomsday utilizing these cards generates infinite storm for decks that gain life (even gaining just 10 life is already tough for Storm to reach), and it also circumvents hate such as Meddling Mage, Gaddock Teeg, Ethersworn Canonist, etc.
The Source: Your Source for "The Source: Your Source for..." cliche.
Is empty the warrens a good card vs. counterbalancedecks? Post-board
Can somebody explain me the "Doomsday Combo"?
@ mercc
Assuming you are playing a more control-oriented approach, using Red for blasts, then yes.Is empty the warrens a good card vs. counterbalancedecks? Post-board
EtW lets you win small, often with a smaller number of spell/cards than would have been required for Tendrils. Going for EtW can be an alternate gameplan for when Tendrils would have worked but failed, letting you spend your hard earned Storm through some outlet. EtW requires fewer resources to become functional, and thus more resources can be devoted to soaking up or answering control cards from your opponent.
Sometimes you just have to win small against heavy control (like CB).
peace,
4eak
It's just a mass tutor that works as a storm engine. You generally won't pass the turn so you build a stack something like:
Meditate/Brainstorm
Accel
Accel
Random Card
Win Condition
and you're simply looking to get a free 4-6 storm using SDT/Brainstorm to draw into the pile. That it doesn't give your opponent back force of will or really care about your life total (you need 2 life to go off with Doomsday which is a lot more forgiving than Ad Nauseam in some matchups) is a nice bonus. If you search the boards for Doomsday piles I'm sure you'll come up with some posts of mine or others explaining how to play them.
The specific sensei, sensei pile we use is usually something like this:
Meditate
Helm of Awakening
Sensei's Divining Top
Lion's Eye Diamond
Grapeshot
For the record, I win the vast majority of my games with Tendrils.
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
http://wizards.com/Magic/TCG/Events....pchi09/welcome
Look at "Quarterfinals: Tommy Kolowith vs. Andy Probasco"
Slaughter :(
what do you do?
EtW?
Grips?
Shusher?
First turn discard?
Well, Probasco landed Counterbalance both games, Turn 3 (?) first game and Turn 2 on the second. Grips would have helped him more than Shushers.
On the first game, I would have Mystical'd for Wipe Away in my build and waited for a protection spell to go off, probably with IGG or Doomsday.
The Source: Your Source for "The Source: Your Source for..." cliche.
My experience against Probasco in the trial that weekend:
I'm on the play and I lead with Duress. I think I take a Brainstorm effect noting his Force of Will (I have a second Duress). I Duress him again turn 2 for the Force knowing I can go off with Chant next turn. He draws and drops Counterbalance and I never draw the third land for the Wipe Away in my hand (I was playing 16 main). I was playing the ANT/Doomsday hybrid with Wipe Away and he simply drew well.
The bottom line is that even in a build that is geared to dealing with CB, their good draws are usually going to beat your good draws. Shusher doesn't help much because (1) they don't tend to take out all of their removal and (2) they board in BEB/Threads for expensive/worthless stuff like Sower anyway because it still pitches to Force and might randomly do something good (like nuke a Shusher).
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
But our good draws lets us win turn 1 or 2, maybe 3.
So, maybe more consistent speed?
And we dont have win by storming for Tendrils, but maybe just 10 EtW tokens?
But even Kolowith played Burning wish for EtW, but didn't win. hmm
Is the CB-maychup just a fold?
Concentrating on winning every other matchup instead?
Because of my experiences I can say that mostly every time when I cast Empty the Warrens I won´t win. There is to many hate against our little green friends.
I think the best plan against Counterbalance is to play 4 Korsan Grips in SB.
Alright, I took the same U/B/g/w list I posted a while ago with a slightly different SB to my local tournament again and went 3-0-2 and made it to the top 8 (out of 30ish people) and there I encountered the worst possible matchup this deck could have, Ninja Chant. This deck is no joke, almost everytime he bring it he top8s or top4s. Here are the MAINDECK HATE CARDS:
4x Daze
4x Force of Will
4x Meddling Mage
3x Stifle
4x Orim's Chant
3x Jotun Grunt (fucks up threshed Rituals and can't IGG cards played earlier)
Game 1 I mulled to 5 and lost to double Meddling Mage and Force, and game 2 I lost to Chant and double Force, so this was good times. But this got me thinking, maybe Pyroblast and Red Blasts would be better than green. More hate for CB game 1 (and Mage) and is randomly good in the mirror. And in place of KGrip just run Wipe Away. I was thinking about playing these hate cards in the main:
4x Chant
3x Pyroblast
1x Wipe Away
Then in the SB bringing the following in:
1x Pyroblast
2x REB
2x Wipe Away
Just an idea for beating heavy control decks. I will really miss Swarm but he has been sent farming quite often lately so I am losing a little faith in the card. There is something I have really been looking into testing and that is City of Solitude but it just seems to expensive and to slow .... but the Blast plan seems good. I will also miss Duress but I think having blasts against CB is an even trade off and the random aggro matchups where Duress is really good are so winnable anyway that it doesn't matter.
"I just shot Marvin in the face!"
"Why the fuck'd you do that??"
I was doing some light testing today and noticed that this list works extremely well (based on the Spanish and ML lists):
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Ad Nauseam
2 Tendrils of Agony
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Pyroblast
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Badlands
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
I went with 8x red blasts and the SSG to help avoid the daze issue. The list has been pretty consistent in initial testing and I'm running 4 LED, 2 Infernal Tutor, 1 IGG in the sb against discard decks. I've been playing 4x Shattering Spree, 3x Chain of Vapor, and 1x Wipe Away to round out the sb. I'll do some more testing with this over the weekend to see if I can find a better plan against aggro/discard and to see if I need to tweak the manabase for basics or to go heavier on a particular dual.
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
I run more or less the same list and it's absolutely fucking amazing vs Threshold; as much as I like Simian Spirit Guide, it's not that great, because it's a lightning bolt post-Nauseam and the 8 blasts gives you a lot of time to hit your land drops, so you may as well run 15-17 lands to take advantage of it.
Since there's so much red in the list why not cut a Tendrils for a Wish?
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