[Article] Turn One and Tempo in Legacy

[The Ocho]

Turn one can be tricky in Legacy, so Webster goes over in great detail the advantages and disavantages of all sixteen lines of play in a sample opening hand. If that isn't enough, he even explores Aggro-Control by comparing Team America and Canadian Threshold on a card-by-card basis.

http://strategy.channelfireball.com/...mpo-in-legacy/

I would prefer to have a discussion about this article in the forums on my site to provide content over there.

Enjoy.

[undone]

I liked it but disagreed with one line of play being out and out wrong which is playing sea ponder. With that hand your sink hole/waste/stifle resiliance is high on the play and in the situationhe describes ponder is the best play as you STILL scoop to 3sphear +wastes it is better to ponder and give yourself nearly an 80% chance to have force or daze as the decks that run 3sphear generaly have a real tough time with goy which will resolve turn 2 or 3... -.- Aside from that I generaly like this artical I like the red thresh vs team america, america has no real advantages over red thresh aside from like 2 MUs and red thresh has a better matchup against like 6 other important decks than team A.

[mujadaddy]

I would prefer to have a discussion about this article in the forums on my site to provide content over there.

Yet you're using the free advertising for the article here, so that's where I'll comment.

Reading that article made me weep for the player's manabase.

Also: "HOW DOES I PLAI MAJIX?" came to mind reading through all the various stream of consciousness options he considered, and "What exactly is tempo? What is an aggro-control deck?" Uh huh. I guess people who weren't around to be disappointed in Ice Age need stuff like this, though, so I'll be nice. Oops, too late?

More: "Card quality is paramount for aggro-control decks." -- while everyone else is still pimping Giant Slug, right?

"Lightning Bolt, the most balanced of the “one-mana-do-3-X” spells from Alpha" -- oh, is that why they keep reprinting it?

[The Ocho]

Yet you're using the free advertising for the article here, so that's where I'll comment.

Advertising my article 'for free' here isn't my primary goal. I wrote an article about Legacy. I figured you (i.e. people who like legacy enough to browse forums) would rather have something to read than not.

If I'm going to discuss my article, I'd rather do so on the site that I write for.

Reading that article made me weep for the player's manabase.

Also: "HOW DOES I PLAI MAJIX?" came to mind reading through all the various stream of consciousness options he considered, and "What exactly is tempo? What is an aggro-control deck?" Uh huh. I guess people who weren't around to be disappointed in Ice Age need stuff like this, though, so I'll be nice. Oops, too late?

Given that I'm explaining how to play a hand out, it's better to go through all the options (being more in depth about the relevant ones) rather than skip a few and have people tell me that I missed something when I didn't.

[mujadaddy]

I didn't mean to come across as ungrateful -- thanks for writing it, seriously. More people *do* need to know the relevant thought processes in playing Legacy.

[Happy Gilmore]

Although I disagree a bit on some of your approximations and choices in various plays I think overall it was a good article. My only major complaint is that you were trying to both compare two decks and explain tempo in legacy at the same time. It would have been much much better to choose one of the decks.

[bowvamp]

It isn't lightning bolt, it's healing salve. (in reference to the most balanced 3-of-x spells).
Card Quality is paramount for every deck, you don't want your whole deck neutralized regardless of the MU cause you're playing sucky cards right?

[GreenOne]

It isn't lightning bolt, it's healing salve. (in reference to the most balanced 3-of-x spells).

Healing salve is a bit underpowered. I'd take Giant Growth: similar spells have strong additions to cost more (like trample) and they made different enjoyable playable variations: Seal of Strenght, Briar Shield, Bounty of the Hunt, Predator's strike, Might of Old Krosa, Symbiosis, Muscle Burst, Predator's strike and so on. Spells like those are actually similar to the original spell without being strictly worse (like shock, seal of fire, etc) and pickable in draft ;).

[mercenarybdu]

I disagree on a dozen things within the article.

He keeps putting certains into categories that aren't always there. Then he is only justifying his points through only control plans over a variety of three, which makes for less accuracy.

Of course, he gives us stuff on how to make moves on the first turn depending on what you open out with. Yet, the article is overall narrow.

[Forbiddian]

When you have an Underground Sea to protect, and need the green anyway, why bother fetching an Island?

If he has one waste, you're either left with Island or Tropical Island. If he has double Waste, he'll still Waste your secord land drop (deck looks like it needs three land anyway). Matters vs. Blood Moon, but not Wasteland.



I don't have enough experience with Team America/dreadstill/UGB whatever variants to definitively tell you that you came to the wrong conclusion, but your critical thinking seems really lopsided and the critical thinking aspect I'm sure is the whole point of the article.


You highlight certain aspects as absolutely required, but offer nothing as to why those were highlighted: The necessity to dig up Island to get around Waste and how scary Stifle/Wasteland plan is or 3sphere are beaten out a few times, and you really hammer the need to have Brainstorm up turn 1 so that you can Daze or Force,

[quote]Playing SDT on turn one gives your opponent the opportunity to resolve something nasty like Aether Vial because you will only be able to see the top card of your deck by drawing with SDT in order to find Daze or Force of Will.[quote]

Do you know the probability of getting a Daze or Force of Will off of a Brainstorm? It seems like a critical statistic and an embarrassment to leave out of your analysis, if you knew it. For the record, it's 39.43%. And if you Ponder it's the same 39.43% and then 48.57% if you take the shuffle.

And what type of Turn 1 drop do they have where you want to Force? Vial seems like shit, you don't even have other countermagic and you have half the combo for Countertop + Stiflenought and a crazy amount of draw. I'd just let Vial resolve and dig for Stiflenought with Tgoyf backup. Also, if I force the Vial, he just casts other crap.


Running the Top out turn 1 I agree would be weak, but mainly because you already have Ponder and your hand is full of filter cards. Playing the top precludes the turn 2 Tarmogoyf play (if you cast it, it comes in as a 1/2 off the fetchland).

You don't mention casting the Goyf turn 2, which is an important option if your opponent makes an aggressive play, like lackey or something. I think that alone is quite damning to the SDT option (that and Wasteland the Sea sucks pretty hard balls if you turn 1 Topped).

You also don't mention how the fetchland is your G source as well for the moment. The ability to play the goyf really deepens your decision tree and gives you an answer to an aggressive deck and an ability to manhandle a slower deck. You repeatedly state how you need Island (seems ridiculous to me, as not many people play Blood Moon)




Also given your hand, it seems really suspect that you don't think you can maximize Ponder.

You know what you're digging for: Countermagic, third land, Counterbalance, Bob, and Dreadnought are all pretty much no-brainers that fill your hand out very well. The cards you'll probably pass on that you might need: Echoing Truth, Engineered Explosives.

You don't discuss the actual ramifications of passing on those cards or taking them thinking you might need them, etc. etc. You seem pretty content to just say, "You don't have enough information to Ponder."


Also, you don't mention how Brainstorm lets you undo two shit draws if you save it until your mainphase and follow it with a fetchland, but you have to keep your second crappiest card if you Brainstorm at endstep with no shuffle effect.

Whereas Ponder is great to run out early (and fills the yard +1 Goyf, which was unmentioned), Brainstorm costs you card filtration through the midgame if you try to cast it immediately.

And who gets their land stifled anyway these days? Just don't fetch vs. open U. With Underground Sea, pass, they go Fetchland pass. If your opponent doesn't get Stifled, you're doing the same thing as mainphasing your Brainstorm.


Basically I think waiting to Stifle is a mistake against an unknown opponent. The hand isn't hurt much by not using stifle early. It's not one of those hands where you have to keep Stifle open early because it'll be a straight -1 later in the game if you don't use it upfront. If you hold the Brainstorm, anyway, you'll be able to get rid of Stifle. Or you can run it through a Dreadnought.

But even if staying open for Stifle is right, you don't even go into detail about the actual tradeoff. The odds that they don't present a Stifle target are overwhelming and then the question is: Ponder now or Brainstorm endstep.



Maybe you're right anyway, but you missed a lot of really critical points of contention for playing that hand that really call into question your ability to write for so long on such a detailed and esoteric topic.