I'm not denying the power of Relic. I'll probabily move back to monored because of it. I just think that with Weirdings, relic is not that needed MD. I think, nonetheless, that you should have them in the SB.
You're list is fine. Even thogh the Ring looks weird, keep it if you want it.
I noticed people are cutting Fanatics from 4 to 3 MD.. I did it aswell, guess is the right move.
As for CotV agains't Dredge, I think it can be sided in, because we have some cards to remove from MD agains't them.
For the sake of doing so, I tabulated what Goblins splashes made day 2 @ the GP(there posted at thestarkingtonpost.com in case you missed it). Without further ado:
Green: 9
Green Black: 3
Mono Red: 1
Black: 1
White Black: 1
Interestingly, the most popular sideboard strategy among the popular Green spash was something along the lines of:
4 Relic of Progenitus
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Pyrokinesis
3 Krosan Grip
I have to say that the green splash and this sideboard plan is something I am in agreement with. Particularly running Pillar over Chalice. Combo decks always seem to pack answers to Chalice and have far fewer answers for enchantments. This also combos very effectively with Tin Street Hooligan, because they will often play their artifact mana right away to dodge Chalice. Indeed, I have won both of my past two matches against combo with no dedicated sideboard hate with Rg Goblins and simply Tin Streeting and Wasting their mana sources. (Not that I am trying say this match is good or anything, just that its not entirely hopeless).
"Mono Red: 1
Red: 1"
did not got it... =/
Now, the SB looks good. I might give it a shot in my monoR list, with REB in place of Grips.
Will check the site later.
Thanks for posting that for us. =]
Fixed!Originally Posted by ScatmanX
In regards to the green splash and the normal sideboard: that looks like it has a hard time dealing with tarmogoyf. Stingscourger + Wasteland, and the classic of Gempalm Incinerator have proven themselves that they can't do it by themselves.
Also, Avatara, I disagree with your mana base: 22 lands with only 2 basics in the most extensive splash (black) really restricts your use of wasteland. I guess the manabase is just a little out of the ordinary, I'll be interested to see how it does for you.
To ScatmanX: I don't know if I can agree with REB replacing Grips in the sideboard in monored since they serve two very different functions. REB can't get rid of plague and random annoying things like humility and moat that may pop up from time to time. Not taking anything away from REB because it's a good card, but having 4 vials, 4 relics, and 3 REBs in deck with 23 lands puts you at 26 goblins, which means ringleader will reveal less than 2 goblins on average, unless you decide to board out ringleaders (and I'm really quite against that for obvious reasons).
Finally, analyzing original decklists from the GP I think is a good idea. But the metagame there is vastly different with 1200 people than it is with 40. Goblins in those situations has to generalize itself and make itself a stock build, which in tourneys of 40 people will be much easier equipped to handle. That's why I recommend (and have seen through testing) the effectiveness of some slightly more unique cards like Goblin Goon, Price of Progress, and Stingscourger (who is no longer unique at this point).
About Goblin Goon: his primary purpose is to fight engineered plague in the monored version of goblins. I realize he seems like he sucks, but thinking in the minds of your opponent, they will often keep bad hands that have a plague or multiples. Especially in the case of multiple plagues and 2-3 mana sources, opponents will keep total crap just to smirk with their double plagues against monored. Well, goon is still a 4/4 in that situation. He really is a good tool to fight against engineered plague from what I've seen. If an opponent has a decent hand PLUS engineered plague, well tough luck. That's the weakness of playing monored, but I really don't think plague is as common as it is made out to be on this thread. Also, goblin goon is helpful against decks like team america that have very few threats. A 6/6 beater that gets by tarmogoyf easily? Sign me up.
Also, with price of progress, I figure Landstill is a DtB still, and we don't really have much else to side in for the matchup. I feel this matchup is grossly overestimated and that Landstill is actually not that great of a matchup for goblins. Though I haven't tested PoP much at all yet, it looks good on paper. I'd be interested to hear from anybody who has. Just wondering: has anybody tested Magus of the Moon in matchups like landstill? I figure you can vial it in pretty nicely to prevent counters, unlike blood moon.
So yes, Rg goblins is perhaps the best build for a 1200 person event, but for smaller venues I'd stick to something else (imo monored w/ md relics) unless enginereed plague is really that big of a problem. I think everyone knows about goblins is that monored, Rg, Rb, and Rbg are all good in their own different metagames.
Last edited by FoulQ; 03-14-2009 at 01:35 PM.
ok guys sorry about the late post heres what I ran at gp chi-town
Lands
5 Mountain
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
3 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
Creatures
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
3 Mogg Fanatic
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
2 Tin Street Hooligan
1 stingscourger
Spells
4 Ęther Vial
Sideboard
1 goblin king
4 Relic of Progenitus
3 Krosan Grip
3 Pyrokinesis
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
sadly I went 6-2-1 my 2 losses to thresh I just couldnt draw the answers
So deathdealer has 4 Pyrostatic Pillar in his sideboard, while I run 4 Chalice of the Void, what do you guys think is better? I prefer Chalice as it hits burn and Elves (to some extent) as well. Also, it is able to win through turn 1 or 2 wins of combo.
Against combo I go:
-4 Vial
-4 Gempalm Incinerator
-1 Skirk Prospector
-1 Goblin Ringleader
+4 Krosan Grip (I know it's terrible, but let's just hope the combo player misplays and KroGrip can get there, do it in your own turn as mana abilities don't use the stack!)
+4 Chalice
+2 Relic of Progenitus (I run 2 maindeck)
Against Elf Combo I go:
-4 Vial
-2 Relic
-1 TSH
-1 Ringleader
-1 Piledriver
+1 Sharpshooter
+4 Chalice of the Void
+4 Pyrokinesis
In the mirror match; what do you take out to fit in Pyrokinesis? I take out my 2 MB Relic and 3 Piledrivers for 4 PKinesis and 1 Sharpshooter.
Curious to see the boarding plans of other people in these matchups.
yeah, it was a joke, I was talking shit. it was a reference to how everyone posting on this forum thinks that their shit doesnt stink, but when it comes time to put their money where their mouth is and win a GP, everybody fails. no matter what DTB/DTW deck they're playing, fucking zero people here managed to top 8. I think its a little funny thats all, like playing a pithing needle and naming 'ego'.
Well, Caplan worked his way to the Top8 and he's a sourcerer. Some sourcerer made day 2 too. I think it's not bad, considering 1200 people attended, with pros being present and just <50 sourcerers probably went there.
It's just a pity goblins didn't Top8 in a quite good metagame, but was probably hated out by people's SB, that was prepared to Elves and Merfolk too.
Currently Playing: Nourishing Lich.Deck
Current Record: 1-83-2
Here's the list that I have been testing.
Lands
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Mountain
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Badlands
2 Taiga
Creatures
4 Goblin Lackey
2 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Matron
1 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Warchief
3 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
1 Tin Street Hooligan
Spells
4 AEther Vial
4 Warren Weirding
4 Thoughtseize
Sideboard
3 Mogg Fanatic
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Duress
3 Krosan Grip
Hoping that somebody can further improve my list.
I don't get the Fanatics in the SB.
In what matchups outside dredge and the mirror are you siding them? If those are the only matchups than Pyrokinesis might be overall better.
Currently Playing: Nourishing Lich.Deck
Current Record: 1-83-2
In my opinion, people loaded up tons of tribal hate for GP:Chicago in their sideboards, and many kept that hate in their sideboards. But also, wasteland and stifle are on the decline in many places. In many thresh lists, stifle is being cut for cards like shackles and sower, mainly a lot more artifacts. So I am in love with monored (and playing it for the last month), but the question is, why not splash? Going 2color really doesn't make you that vulnerable to wasteland, and less and less people are playing waste+stifle. So, going back to the original point, people loaded up CoP:Red for burn/goblins, as well as of course Enginereed Plague, AND a lot of the cards they are adding to the new blue lists are artifacts. Green splash looking attractive...
I also think the combo matchup is not worth the time. I know some people do. But that is what makes goblins no longer the best deck, it will lose to combo a lot of the time.
So with that I'd like to present my decklist and see what you guys think:
LAND (23)
5 Mountain
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Taiga
GOBLINS (30)
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
3 Mogg Fanatic
1 Goblin Tinkerer
1 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Siege-Gang Commander
3 Stingscourger
OTHER (7)
4 Aether Vial
3 Relic of Progenitus
SIDEBOARD
1 Relic of Progenitus
3 Goblin Goon
4 Pyrokinesis
1 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Shattering Spree
3 Krosan Grip
A few things about this: 1 gempalm incinerator worries me. I really like deathdealer's list which is basically just straight-up Rg goblins, but I think it might have difficulty dealing with tarmogoyf. That's why I love stingscourger+wasteland/port as well as relic of progenitus. And the maindeck tinkerer I like because it deals with many problems, and they might think you are dedicated to tinkerers but you have hooligans in the sb.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: Goblin goon is tech. The last tournament it was at, every time I played it my opponent had to read the card. And every time I played it I won the game.
Singleton shattering spree is in there for decks like affinity, which is popular in my metagame. It can randomly pull out wins.
So what do you guys think? Gempalm count too low? Me throwing out the combo matchup a big mistake? Tinkerer/Hooligan split a good idea? I'm really interested because I'll be honest, most of you here are probably a lot better players than I am with the deck.
ETA: I'm also curious for those of you bringing in Grips and Relics against Goyf/Plague decks. That's 11 nongoblins, and with 23 lands, that leaves only 26 goblins for ringleader. Do you end up boarding him out then? The day they print a goblin enchantment destroyer is the day goblins becomes good again...
Last edited by FoulQ; 03-25-2009 at 02:08 PM.
They were there for dredge and to ping pesky creatures with x/1.
But I will start testing with Pyrokinesis.
You just cant disregard the combo mu if you expect to win a tournament, if 1 combo deck enters T8 along with you thats a 25% chance you will face it.. Given that in most T8s at least 1 combo deck shows up thats a percentage I just dont feel comfortable with..
Last tournament I played (MCM 50 man) I faced 3 combodecks... solidarity twice (won 2-0 once and lost 1-2 once) and ANT (He killed himself with AN twice for 2-0) so yeah, combo is a factor, at least in NL/Belgium.
The silly thing is, 50% of the time there's hardly any combo around, and the other 50% of the time there's loads of it :(
That being said, combo is a shitty matchup but not completely unwinnable. You lack any form of interaction with a combodeck (no MD counters/stifles/discard/other forms of disruption except wastelands/ports) but at least you can present a very relevant clock, with *some* form of combohate coming in from the board you *should* be able to win it, sometimes, but unless you run some form of disruption maindeck, outside wastelands/ports which often aren't that big of a factor anyway, you're going to be devoting insane amounts of sideboard-space just to be able to get a reliable matchup against combo, which at least in NL isn't even showing up to alot of tournaments.
So, what can we do about this? The answer is simple: run maindeck disruption, diluting the overall plan of goblins but improving the shitty matchups like TES and friends.
Stuff like Thorn of Amethyst, Thoughtseize, Cabal Therapy etc all seem like decent candidates for the MD, but I'm reluctant to put anything of this in, since you'll shit all over your other matchups, even though some cards (like seize) might be relevant in those as well, so it might actually be worth considering.
The third option is to hope for WotC to print some grixis/jund hybrid goblin that makes your opponent discard cards or something or has a glowrider effect but meh.
Hello friend.
Boartusk Liege is a much better card then Goon against Plague IMO.
I would somewhat agree with you, I think they fit hand in hand as tools to fight EP and mainly because they are goblins. It can be hard for me to stick behind KGrip because it simply isn't reliably drawn. Would you say the beefier body and trample is better than mountainwalk that King offers, though? Also the fact that Liege costs RRR somewhat scares me. I'd be interested to hear how it works for you in a tournament setting though.
The whole point is that it survives 2 plagues basically.
Goblin Goon is a 4/4 under 2 Plagues.
Liege is too hard to cast.
But if you have done some testing, please share. I'd like to hear (read).
I wrote a quite big speech about everything on the deck i'm going to post, but it was all lost, and I'm not going to wright it again so, here it is:
Goblin Burn
// Lands
4 [R] Badlands
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
5 [ST] Mountain (4)
2 [DIS] Blood Crypt
Lots of black and mountains.
// Creatures
1 [SHM] Wort, the Raidmother
4 [AT] Goblin Matron
3 [REL] Earwig Squad
4 [MOR] Frogtosser Banneret
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
1 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
2 [SC] Goblin Warchief
1 [SC] Siege-Gang Commander
Less Ringleader because it sucks with 24 goblins.
// Spells
1 [MOR] Warren Weirding
2 [AT] Goblin Grenade
3 [FNM] Fireblast
4 [R] Lightning Bolt
4 [LG] Chain Lightning
13 Burn spells to gain more reach. They "combo" with Wort (yes, it's the green one).
// Sideboard
SB: 3 [MOR] Warren Weirding
SB: 4 [US] Duress
SB: 4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
SB: 1 [LRW] Mad Auntie
SB: 1 [ON] Goblin Pyromancer
SB: 1 [MI] Goblin Tinkerer
SB is not very good. Is mainly to delay combo, dont let opponent play countebalance, have more awnsers to big creatures.
Would like to fit Pyroknesis in it, because it is freaking Nuts with Wort!
So, tell me what you think about, and if you have ever played something similar. It's a lot of fun to play, that I can say for sure. =]
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