@ Nekrataal - The Sprite never really countered anything. When I was on the play, I would much rather play a creature like Lord or Adept, and it was usually lame when my only turn two play was a flashed Sprite countering nothing. When people realize that you're playing it, it is just about worthless because you're forced to counter relatively worthless stuff in order to get value out of it when you can. Maybe it requires a certain play style, but if it does, I don't like how it slows the deck down. Also, the lack of synergy is a problem. Sometimes, your LoA is useless because of multiple Sprites/Clique with it. The lack of fairies might be a problem, too.
@Stifle - It should only be used in metagames where it is always obviously good. Unless your playing against a ton of Lanstill or Combo, they should be real cards, like Jitte or more creatures. Also, what's the point in sideboarding them? There are definitely more powerful options than it.
Thanks for sharing your EXP. My current build right now is posted below. I stil have to optimize the SB because Stifle made it easier to come up with a sideboard plan. Now it is a little harder.
// Lands (20)
12 [MR] Island
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [MOR] Mutavault
// Creatures (20)
4 [U] Lord of Atlantis
4 [LRW] Merrow Reejerey
4 [LRW] Silvergill Adept
4 [SHM] Cursecatcher
2 [EVE] Wake Thrasher
2 [SH] Vendilion Clique
// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [OD] Standstill
3 [NE] Daze
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [OD] Divert
SB: 2 [US] Back to Basics
SB: 2 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 2 [MM] Misdirection
SB: 2 [SHM] Cold-Eyed Selkie
SB: 2 [1OTH] Pithing Needle
Still some space ...
Why are people cutting Stifles? Isn't Wasteland + Stifle + Cursecatcher + Daze mana denial synergy a good plan?
The Source: Your Source for "The Source: Your Source for..." cliche.
I think it's that most people feel that stifle isn't doing enough for them. The meta has come to expect Merfolk and has learned to play around Stifle and Daze. Like others have said before, if they are playing around it is because those cards are doing their job. Just by having stifles in the deck allows for bluffs etc. slowing them down for at least a turn or two.Originally Posted by kicks_422
But still i'm not sure if they deserve a total cut, perhaps putting them in sb as a 3 -ofs against decks you know play massively through activated/triggered abilities (landstill for instance) and siding in in the 2nd game can provide the unexpected effect and further protection against certain cards which this deck needs. Against control, the lack of stifle can really hurt if a prepared opponent can concentrare its resources toward a game-breaking card ( deed for instance).
But, for the rest, everything you have said is true. People are just able to play around stifle cracking fetchlands in the right time, or anything similar. But stifling in the 2nd game a fetch or a mass removal, a thing they'd not expect not having seen stifle in the 1st game, could be way useful and advantaging.
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Avatar of kicks_422's creation and property
Those are pretty much my exact thoughts. Stifle is a card that is more or less useful in practically every matchup. Running a stifle-less list will need some getting used to.
Merfolk is a tempo based deck running fast clock, counters and mana denial for the win. The lack of stifles will somewhat lower the effectiveness of most of the cards we use: Daze and Cursecatcher. Limiting the access a player has to a certain color is often game breaking in the case of UGW, UGR Threshold and Landstill variants as these decks depend on a certain color for removal.
Moving the stifle to the board seems like a decent alternative, making space for cards which are generally good on their own, instead of being situational: Umezawa's Jitte or additional bounce (i.e Echoing Truth).
Even if they try to play around Stifle with fetchlands, this usually makes Wasteland better. For example, if they fetch turn 1 instead of waiting, you can use Waste immediately, they can't use Brainstorm as advantagely, and have less info about what to fetch, which also makes fetching basics more risky and thus making manascrew more likely.
It's easily possible that you don't see a 4-of in a game, this shouldn't lead people to believe you don't play Stifle.
Team Nijmegen
Often turn 1 Stifle on a fetchland is pretty good. But more often you want to play an Aether Vial or a Cursecatcher on turn 1.
Anyway, yesterday I played a Merfolk list in a 32-player tournament where I split first place (or 'volunteered' for second place, depends on how you look at it. Ofcourse I like to think I split first place, haha). Here's my list:
Maindeck:
Sideboard:Code:1 Tidal Warrior 3 Cursecatcher 4 Silvergill Adept 4 Lord of Atlantis 4 Merrow Reejerey 2 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner 2 Stifle 2 Echoing Truth 4 Force of Will 4 Daze 2 Threads of Disloyalty 4 Standstill 4 Aether Vial 3 Mutavault 4 Wasteland 13 Island
Round 1: Louis de Nijs with GWB Rock.Code:3 Relic of Progenitus 1 Echoing Truth 2 Llawan, Cephalid Empress 2 Stifle 2 Vedalken Shackles 3 Phyrexian Dreadnought 2 Pithing Needle
I don't remember much about this match, except that I beat him game 1, and game 2 he dropped an Engineered Plague against me, but I still beat him with a Lord of Atlantis and 2 Mutavaults. I believe the best play was, when I had a Lord of Atlantis, a Merrow Reejerey and a Kira out, and he had a Kitchen Finks (with a -1/-1 counter) and something else with cc3(perhaps another Kitchen Finks, I'm unsure). He blew a Pernicious Deed@2, killing my Lord of Atlantis. He dropped another Pernicious Deed but was outtapped. Then he attacked. I only had my Reejerey and alot of mana and 3 Mutavaults on the table. I bounced his Pernicious Deed, so I could safely activate the Mutavaults to block the Kitchen Finks and Reejerey blocked the other guy, clearing the board except for my Mutavaults who would swing for the win later.
1-0-0
Round 2: Bart Holkenborg with UG Merfolk
Game 1: he beat me with Merfolk superiority and a Tarmogoyf while I only had Lords of Atlantis in my hand... great for giving your opponent's Mutavaults Islandwalk and make them deal more damage.
I think I sided -4 Standstill, -4 Aether Vial and -4 Lord of Atlantis to get +3 Phyrexian Dreadnought, +2 Stifle, +2 Llawan Cephalid Empress, +2 Vedalkan Shackles, +1 Echoing Truth.
I don't remember games 2 and 3 exactly, but I do know that I felt rather confident having Llawan Cephalid Empress. But she never showed. Game 3 I won because I wasted his Trop, he didn't draw another green source before my Dreadnought finished him off. He showed me a hand full of Tarmogoyfs and Krosan Grips.
2-0-0
Round 3: Peter van der Ham UGR Thrash
I lost both games. I lost the second one because I broke my own Standstill, which was a big mistake. Ouch.
2-1-0
Round 4: Jos van Doesburg with WGRB Zoo
Game 1: I'm on the play. Mutavault, Aether Vial, go. He drops a Badlands, Kird Ape, Go. I drop Island, Standstill, go. He grunts, and responds with a Lightning Bolt on me. Next turn he swings his Kird Ape, and drops no land. So I waste his Badlands and he scoops.
Game 2: He eventually has Jitte with some counters and a Vexing Shusher, he also Krosan Gripped my Vial, so it's not good for me. Topdeck: Vedalken Shackles. From there on it was pretty easy. I think I eventually killed him with a Dreadnought. I love Dreadnoughts. I also love Shackles.
3-1-0
Round 5: Jasper Boelens with Baseruption/NLU/Nassif's list-ish.
Game 1: He has a Dark Confidant, and I have some fishes. I waste a Tundra to keep him off his white. It works, I win.
Game 2: He tries to cast Dark Confidant, I FoW and waste his Underground Sea to keep him off his black. He swords a couple of my critters, but eventually he goes down. He revealed a hand with 2 Dark Confidants. I love Wasteland.
4-1-0
Round 6: Kasper Euser with UW Landstill.
After careful calculations we see we can ID to get into the top 4.
4-1-1
Top 4, Semi-finals. Peter van der Ham with UGR Thrash again.
Game 1: I beat him pretty easily.
Game 2: He had 2 Nimble Mongooses, a Pithing Needle naming Vial, and 6 cards in his graveyard. I have an Aether Vial (yay), Lord of Atlantis, Cursecatcher and Kira. I drop Standstill and attack with Lord of Atlantis, Cursecatcher and Kira. He plays Vendillion Clique, breaking my standstill. I draw into Stifle, Daze and an Island or something. He was outtapped and I had a Daze in my hand. I decide not to counter Clique because his Mongooses would gain Threshold and would kill my Lord of Atlantis. The Clique puts a Merrow Reejerey on the bottom of my deck and blocks Kira. But what Peter didn't know was that Clique also placed a brand new Kira in my hand. Next turn he swings with his 3/3 Nimble Mongooses and drops a Tarmogoyf I believe. I drop Kira while he beats me down, having to chumpblock Goyf with the Cursecatcher and Lord of Atlantis. Then, I draw a Phyrexian Dreadnought. I cast it, and Stifle the CiP ability. Everything resolves, but Peter doesn't look scared, while 1 swing with the Dreadnought would kill him, and he can't swing for the win because Phyrexian Dreadnought would block Tarmogoyf. In his turn he casts Repeal on Phyrexian Dreadnought. I point at Kira. He grunts, smacks himself on the head etc. I win. I love Kira. And Phyrexian Dreadnought!
In the finals I met Kasper Euser again, but we decided to draw, as I only wanted 2nd price and he wanted first price (which was access to an invitational).
All in all I must say I really loved my sideboard. Every game I sided in the Dreadnoughts, the Stifles and the Shackles. And they really did me well. Kira is also very amazing, and needed if you play Dreadnought and want to keep him safe. The 1 Tidal Warrior was very unimpressive. I always wanted him to be something else, like Cursecatcher, or Stifle or Echoing Truth. So I may change that
I didn't use the Pithing Needles all day, but I still wouldn't drop them. If I did have to play against Landstill, they would have been very needed against all sorts of Engineered Explosiveness or Mishra's Factories.
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's probably delicious.
Team ADHD-To resist is to piss in the wind. Anyone who does will end up smelling.
Quick question (will comment more later):
Why didn't you board in Needels in game one (Against deed)? Did he play top?
Anyway, congrats on your result! Great job!
"Think of all we could learn from it! It's the chance of a lifetime! You must let me have it! It's a magnificent specimen!"
Scandinavian Master Legacy 2010
World champion 93/94 2013
Congrats on the victory.
Good to see someone not dropping everything in this deck that I thought was good! (Kira, Stifle).
I agree about the Tidal Warrior... he looks good on paper but if you actually play with him it just isn't good enough.
Also glad to see other people with dreadnaught sideboards doing well!
How did Shackles turn out for you? I didn't see them in the tournament report, and you run 13 islands, which in my experience isn't enough to steal something good like a goyf.
One more thing. Did echoing truth actually win you any games you couldn't have? You talk about bouncing a Deeds so you can block with Mutavault, but obviously Stifle is much better in this situation. Thoughts?
I didn't side in Pithing Needles because I kind of forgot about them back then, haha (I was like, "Let's try these Dreadnoughts!"). Echoing Truth has done quite some bouncing, also on double Tarmogoyfs and whatnot. Problem with Echoing Truth is, that when you want to bounce your own creatures to save them, and you have Kira, it doesn't work. Shackles won me the game against Zoo (grabbing the Vexing Shusher). In other situations they were pretty good too.
With Merfolk, I usually have the idea that at some point, it 'runs dry'. The deck is simply out of power. Having a Stifle in hand and topdecking a Phyrexian Dreadnought immediately restores that power.
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's probably delicious.
Team ADHD-To resist is to piss in the wind. Anyone who does will end up smelling.
I am not sure ... usually Stifle is THE card that gets boarded out against a lot of decks for Game 2. So placing them in the SB from the beginning seems kind of odd. I think that you either play it main and take it as THE SB slot for bringing in more specific hate cards Game 2 or you just don't play it.
@Skeggi: Shackles seem interesting in the SB. I actually thought that Jitte is too mana intensive, but then Shackles just cost 1 more ... did you just use it in the one game or did it help more often during the tourney?
@Backdrop: I agree the ET hasn't been great main and I exchanged it with Relics already because I felt that they just does more especially do keep Goyfs small permanently. I could also go for Stifle instead of Relic but then Relic has been sooo good in a lot of matchups I had whereas Stifle has been just OK, every then and now getting a "big play" (Deed; EE). Jitte though is different. It allows U to have decent control over the board, to oppose bigger creature, to break stalemates, to gain some rounds against Burn while attacking for more, to still have a threat with just one critter remaining on the board and so one. Generally speaking: Not to run out of steam in several situations. And for you have Mutavaults you almost everytime have a threat you can equip it to.
So basically it boils down to this:
Current deck:
2-3 Jitte
3-2 Relic (no Stifle SB because I think that it is useless to keep a card SB you board out most often in the standard build. I am not a 100% sure of this because it surely weakens your Combo matchup ...)
Alternativ 1:
2-3 Jitte
3-2 Stifle => Sending Relics to the board (Possible, although 50% of the time I will SB Relics Game 2)
Alternative 2:
2-3 Relics => Sending Jitte to the board (I do not like this option)
3-2 Stifle
What would you choose in a Meta that is about 10% Combo, 60% Aggro and Aggro Control and 30% Control?
I used it one or two more times. And there were occasions where I wished I had drawn it, but it just didn't show up. Also, note there is a distinct difference between Jitte and Shackles. It's not just that Shackles costs 1 more mana and requires Islands... I think Shackles is definately worth it.
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's probably delicious.
Team ADHD-To resist is to piss in the wind. Anyone who does will end up smelling.
Shackels seems like it takes up alot of mana. And what if the opponent boards in Grips? Anyway, if it resolves it will win the game however.
@Nekratal: Have you considered playing Kira? Our lists looks pretty much the same except I play 2 Kira (trying it out at least, been having troubles against alot of Swords lately) and 2 ETruth instead of 2 Cliques and 2 Jittes (have them in SB).
@B2B: I find that I don't board in them alot and there not that good since often the opponent searches for as much basics as he can.
@Llawan: Can it be boarded in against anything other than the mirror?
"Think of all we could learn from it! It's the chance of a lifetime! You must let me have it! It's a magnificent specimen!"
Scandinavian Master Legacy 2010
World champion 93/94 2013
You're very right. Krosan Grip is kind of a dealbreaker ofcourse. In fact, that's what happened against my first Shackles on his Vexing Shusher, but I drew another one. I also had a Threads of Disloyalty in my hand as a back up. Stealing creatures is really good.
B2B is something I'm thinking of putting in my sideboard since there are still enough match-ups where you really screw your opponent if one resolves. A friend of mine played Back to Basics MD and had Propagandas in his SB. They work pretty well together.
Technically you could board in Llawan against: Merfolk, Faeries, MUC and Imperial Painter (I guess also anything with Meddling Mages)... but it's really against the mirror. In the tournament I played in, there were at least 5 Merfolk decks present (and 2 made top4).
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's probably delicious.
Team ADHD-To resist is to piss in the wind. Anyone who does will end up smelling.
I guess Faeries and Folks are where it really shines. Will consider this one if I play in a very "blue" meta.
I really like stealing creatures to, trying out Mind Harness but it doesn't seem that good against goblins because they are so fast. I guess Shackels is gold in slower matchups but in the fast ones, do you really have time to drop it and steal?
"Think of all we could learn from it! It's the chance of a lifetime! You must let me have it! It's a magnificent specimen!"
Scandinavian Master Legacy 2010
World champion 93/94 2013
I originally included Shackles because I thought it could steal a Piledriver. I'm not so sure about that now, because Goblins can have insane speed. Shackles isn't exactly the fastest card, that's a fact, but Merfolk aren't exactly slow either. In most cases you can stall your opponent and then steal for the win. As I pointed out: it was golden versus Zoo, and I think it's safe to say Zoo is a fast deck.
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's probably delicious.
Team ADHD-To resist is to piss in the wind. Anyone who does will end up smelling.
Opponents almost always board Grip because of Vial, so be prepared for it. BTW I found Trygon much more a nuisance. He is almost unblockable (flying) for us and destroys Jitte, Vial, BtB and other key cards. Therefore I think Clique is a good addition to the deck.
Actually I did play Kira for some time especially when playing my Dreadnaught version. It wasn't bad but having Jitte main I thought she doesnt fit anymore. Especially I would like to pull the trick with Selkie from the SB + Jitte. Also I think that Jitte fulfills some roles Kira did. Jitte also can protect your most valuable creature from some kinds of spot removal but in addition it can control the board and give back life points (which sometimes is handy).
Llawan isnt that bad but with a Vial out your opponent can be able to recover. On the other hand in the mirror all is about who is having more creatures out as fast as possible. So the bounce can be gamebreaking IF you draw into Llawan AND have the mana to play her. I am also thinking about integrating her into the SB because Merfolks seeing a lot of play because they have style AND are competitive.
Stealing creatures isnt that great against Zoo at least with Threads. In the best case the Zoo player has to waste a burn spell to his own creature. Stealing a Goyf of course is always good if you happen to play no Relics. However I like Shackles because you can permantly steal a creature and that is definitely a problem for Zoo becasue they effectively loose one creature per turn. Yeah probably it is slow at times but I still like the options it provides.
I don't agree with you on jitte protecting my critters. It does so against burn if I have gotten counters on it, but against Swords to Plowshares, the opponent will just sword it in respons to your activation of jitte. I also find myself sideboarding out Cursecatcher against goblins and such, so the targets for jitte goes down. Perhaps this is wrong, but there aren't that much targets for Curse in these matchups...
"Think of all we could learn from it! It's the chance of a lifetime! You must let me have it! It's a magnificent specimen!"
Scandinavian Master Legacy 2010
World champion 93/94 2013
You are perfectly right. I just said "some kinds of removal". Actually I meant burn ;) which hurts most because an opponent usually has more than 4 to constantly burn your creatures. But still do you play Kira AND Jitte ?
I just checked out what Stifle targets are really good and not just one time shots. Apart from Fetchalnds and Storm so far mentioned was EE (Dreadstill, Landstill, MUC, Thres), Deed (The Rock, 4c Landstill, The Fear) and Oblivion Ring (Stax, Enchantress, Thres). OK arguing from that perspective Stifle would be most useful against Thres and Landstill archetypes. In general one could say U based control considering also MUC, The Fear and Dreadstill. EE will be much more often then Deed from the matchups and Oblivion Ring will be a 1 or 2 off max so rather rare. The question now is if the lack of Stifle really worsens the deck against its dearest enemy U based <insert deckname here> vegetable casserole and if e.g. Jitte can be take this place to pimp other matchups instead.
I think I will try out 3 Stifle / 2 Jitte split main vs. 2 Relics / 3 Jitte main next. On Sunday is the next big tourney (Iserlohn) and this will be a good testbed. ;)
BTW I also share the impression on BtB. Most of the times I sided it in my opponent went to fetch basics. As far as I remember it really won just 2 games (Loam, NGQ/r) in which my opponent was still able to do something but in the long run just had to fold. In my opinion it is almost an exclusive hate card against Loam and maybe 4c Landstill. All other decks play enough basics to play around it. So in the end although it looks great on paper it is maybe just superspecial tech like Hurky's Recall. Most valuable SB card so far has been Needle. It is just so good against a lot of matchups.
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