Tri color seems to be taking off. It's funny-- no one would've tried it a year ago when Wasteland was everywhere. Nice job Mishima. Looks like a very solid build.
I've got another question for the GoyfSligh guru: what's the best main deck artifact/enchantment removal?
Seal of Primordium
Hull Breach
Krosan Grip
I've been playing two main deck Tin Street Hooligans, which are great at taking out moxen, tops, and various equipment, but no enchantment removal, and it's left me open to bullets like Moat or Worship. I'd really like to play at least one answer that can be drawn in the late game. Is this worth it, or should I just leave it up to SB and concede those random game 1 losses?
Seal is nice because it pumps Goyf, and Hull Breach is good card advantage, but both still fall under chalice for two, and are obviously counterable.
Originally Posted by keys
I actually played against Wasteland in 5 of the 6 matches. It was hell trying to play around them, but it seeing as how there are only 6 spells that need white and 4 more if you count the nacatls, wasteland isn't that bad if you can play around it.
Hull Breach seems like a solid choice. The Hooligan is probably perfered de to being a creature, but I'm a fan of the versatility that comes with the breach.
Absolutely Krosan Grip: the decks that are playing nasty enchantments are usually packing counters (landstill, for example) or are playing CB. I'd play no more than a couple though.
Currently Playing: Nourishing Lich.Deck
Current Record: 1-83-2
If you have main deck Shushers, could Hull Breach be as good?
No. Hull Breach is sorcery speed and relies on another card to be uncounterable. Grip is always uncounterable and an instant; there is really no replacement for it.
w0rd
Grip nails Counterbalance very well. Eot Krosan Grip Oblivion Rings is also pretty hot against Mono White Stax.
Actually, I'd say the nastiest enchantments/artifacts are in mono white Stax and Enchantress. Those are the matchups where something more substantial like Hull Breach/Shattering Spree could come in handy.
But I agree, Grip seems better in more scenarios.
Getting back to traditional builds, I've come up with a list that seems very balanced and it's only getting completely crushed by one deck locally (Charbelcher). Stax is hell pre-sideboard sometimes, but sometimes you outace them and the sideboard makes things manageable.
I'm not ocmpletely crushing every other deck (not sure anything does these days), but I've got a fighting chance and solid matches against most other decks.
Here's the list:
3 Keldon Marauder
4 Kird Ape
4 Mogg Fanatic
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmagoyf
2 Skyshroud War Beast
2 Rift Bolt
3 Price of Progress
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
3 Fireblast
3 Magma Jet
2 Cursed Scroll
4 Taiga
1 Forest
9 Mountain
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
Sideboard:
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Krosan Grip
2 Shattering Spree
3 Magus of the Moon
3 Tormod's Crypt
The sideboard might need a bit of tweaking, but I'm not too upset with how it stands now.
The main deck of this built has two obviously glaring cards in Cursed Scroll and Skyshroud War Beast. There are only two of each, so they don't screw up your draws too much either way. Interestingly though, I think everyone got away from Cursed Scroll, because it was mana intensive and games were too fast.
It could be my local meta or me completely misjudging the format, but things are a bit slower now and the scrolls are actually useful again. Every deck seems to be playing a lot of non-basics these days, so you'll rarely have a War Beast that's less than stellar.
I also like staying in the monored with green splash setup. The draws are much more consistent and you don't ever feel yourself wanting or praying for anything (except for a non-land card when your opponent is at 4 or less) :)
It looks like it should be a little clunky, but it actually works quite well. Let me know what you guys think about it.
Personally, I've been enjoying the hell out of it :)
The thing you have to ask yourself is "when is war beast better than price of progress?"
War beast deals basically the same damage of price of progress, but requires:
- 3 turns to do it (the turn you play it, 2 turns of attack)
- the opponent doesn't have removal or blockers
- the opponent must have 2+ nonbasics to make it decent
- once it lands the opponent knows you have it (it's not hiding in your hand), and can start fetching basics or keeping lands in hand, making also PoP less powerful.
If you want to maximize the damage then you do want to play 4 copies Price of Progress, cause for War Beast to be more effective than PoP you need at least 4 turns (that is a LOT).
Also, if the opponent has only 2 unbasics war beast is a 2/2 Trample for. Would you play it?
If the opponent has only 2 unbasics PoP is "deal 4 dmg to an opponent" for, a Char on crack that costs 1 less, or an Icinerate that deals 1 damage more. Would you play it?
I love War Beast, but it's not even remotely on par with Price of Progress power level.
Currently Playing: Nourishing Lich.Deck
Current Record: 1-83-2
I follow your logic. That's one of the reasons I stayed away from War Beast initially. But, I don't always want a PoP on turns 2-4. Sometimes, I also want a blocker or something that is going to punch through a Mishra's Factory and save my burn for their head.
It's generally larger than marauder and does more damage. It's also another solid alternative to Goyf. Opponents can't get by on removing Goyf and deal with the nickel and dimes in the meantime.
Also, like I pointed out, it could be a misguided perception of the format, but it appears to be a bit slower these days. Not drastically, but enough that having a few more continual threats is making the difference in several of my games. It's the same reason Cursed Scroll is becoming useful for me again.
If I was playing against faster decks, I might remove the two SWB and play an extra PoP and Marauder I suppose. I've been playing against Death and Taxes, Eva Green, Landstill, Enchantress, Merfolk, Threshold, White Weenie, Zoo and a couple of combo decks.
I agree, that at its core, PoP beats SWB. But, sometimes you need another blocker, or guy to break a stalemate, and even some continual damage over time (you don't always get the blazing start), and in those times SWB has proven its worth...at least with my limited results.
I still don't get it.
Let's say War Beast becomes decent when the opponent has 4+ unbasics (otherwise shit like Scab-clan Mauler would be better). By that time (turn 4+) do you really want a beater or prefer 8 damage to the dome? I'd always take the 8.
Also, why do I want something bigger than a mishra's factory, so I can save the bolt in my hand for the opponent's head, when I can just aim both th PoP and the bolt to the head and deal 11? (!!!)
I'm not saying that Marauder is better than War Beast, I'm just saying that price of progress is better than both. So, IMO, the list starts with 4 PoP, then if you want to add some number of War Beasts you're welcome
Currently Playing: Nourishing Lich.Deck
Current Record: 1-83-2
Weel, again, I agree with the raw power of PoP. There's no discussion to be had there.
Unfortuantely, there are just sometimes where it's not enough and/or you draw it early. But either way, I do see your point.
More importantly, I don't think Goyf Sligh needs to move to an extra color. I've tried a couple of the other lists in this thread and keep coming back to Rg. It felt like the other color didn't add much to the deck. They were just the same tricks in a different flavor while giving up a marginal bit of stability.
I still stand by the fact that my opinion could be jaded as we have a very fledging Legacy scene here, but I definitely prefer the Rg version of the deck. I'll likely be finding room for 2x SWB alongside 4xPoP at some point though ;)
In my oppinion the w splash is necessary. Wild Nacatl is just too strong not to play him, because he generates Tempo and thats what GoyfSligh needs.
In my experience there is no lost of stability because of the w splash. I play 2 Plateau because of Nacatl(i dont run helix), so i only fetch them if i have Nacatl, if not i dont need them. Furthermore i had never big Problems with wastelands. The deck operates very well with two lands and even recuring wastelands are no big problem because u run enough basics.
My current list, that i want to play at bazaar of Moxen, looks like this:
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Taiga
2 Plateau
5 Mountain
1 Forest
4 Kird Ape
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Vexing Shusher
3 Hellspark Elemental
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Magma Jet
4 Fireblast
4 Price of Progress
Sideboard:
3 Winter Orb
3 Krosan Grip
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
2 Tomord´s Crypt
2 Sulforic Vortex
2 Umezawas Jitte
I play Shusher main because i expect very much NLU and Balanced Thresh.
In my German meta i play him since a long time because its necassary to have an answer for challice and balance preboard.
Hellspark Elemental impressed me very much. Going beatz for 6 turn 2 (with first turn nacatl) is really strong, and it comes again and goes around balance and other counters.
One Question: Why is nobody running winter orb in SB here? In Germany it´s in every list. It is really strong agains Landstill, The Rock, MUC, Enchantress and Aggro Loam.
I am from Germany too and recently played GoyfSligh. Initially I had Winter Orbs in but then I realized that when playing Control I need mana for Shusher. So Shusher + Winter Orb is probably bad, so I added 3 Magus of the Moon instead which basically hose NLU and give a lot of decks like Loam or Landstill trouble if they can not remove them at once.
BTW my list is pretty much the same like yours. Hellsparks mh have to consider that, maybe it is good against CounterTop to force through some last damage. I currently play Mogg Fanatic in that slot but he is exchangeable. I play -1 PoP, -1 Fireblast for 2 Lightning Helix and -1 Fetchland + 1 Taiga. In SB I play 3 Magus of the Moon instead of Orb as well as 2 Tin Street Hoologans and 2 Choke. No Sulferic Vortex and Crypts (although I would have to add them if not playing Fanatics).
I know what u mean with the antisynergie from shusher and orb, but orb defeats Landstill and MUC alone in many cases. Furthermore u dont need multiple shusher activations in each turn against these decks. Against Balanced decks winter orb is bad because u need more mana for shusher or different cc spells in one turn.
An other thing is that orb is amazing against Rock and enchntress and that are really problematic matchups.
I think the time for fanatic is over. The problem is that he generates much less presure than ur other one drops and slows the deck down and the main thing u need in goyfSligh is tempo.
Hellspark Elemental generates a lot of tempo, it makes turn 3 kills possible(turn2 beatz for 6, turn 3 beatz for 6+bolt+blast=19dmg) and its good against balance.
In the Naya builds is anyone testing Qasali Pridemage? It seems like a great utility addition, not to mention buffing the already good 1cc guys with Exalted is amazing.
TPDMC
Yes. I think any deck that plays white for Nacatl should be playing Pridemage if you're allocating utility spots.
IMO, he is the best 2cc utility creature to offer right now. He has way better tempo than Tin Street Hooligan, meaning you don't have to hold onto Pridemage if you think your opponent is holding a Chalice or Counterbalance. If you're on the play, you play it and get the damage in while at the same time not giving up your outs against said spells. It's a proactive answer rather than a reactive one. It's also still a 2 for 1 in many situations (e.g. block a merfolk, sac and kill a vial).
The exalted buffer is just icing on the cake: win Goyf wars, and/or attack with a 4/4 Nacatl on turn 2 (!). I'd play it as a 2 of in the main deck as a proactive solution to anything from Chalice to Moat. Then Kro Grip/Shattering Spree come in from the Side for backup.
Here's an example of a good T8 list that could incorporate Pridemages:
Goyf Sligh by Benjamin vd Broeck from Qualifier Belgian Legacy Cup Hasselt (which is very close to Brian Six's GP Chicago T8 list):
creature [16]
4 Figure of Destiny
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl
instant [15]
3 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Magma Jet
4 Price of Progress
sorcery [7]
4 Chain Lightning
3 Rift Bolt
land [22]
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Forest
3 Mountain
3 Plateau
4 Taiga
3 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
Sideboard:
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Vexing Shusher
3 Krosan Grip
2 Red Elemental Blast
4 Pyroclasm
15 cards
Sub out one Rift Bolt and one Lavamancer, or two Rift Bolts for Pridemages.
Last edited by keys; 04-27-2009 at 09:40 PM.
True, Fanantic does not build up much pressure. From time to time he is good against Confidant. I never played Ichorid so far, so he can just be taken out. I will test Hellspark Elemental. It is also good against Ichorid and may have some more threat potential.
I was also not impressed by Lightning Helix. Plateaus are the first lands to be wasted whatsoever so I often can not play them. Pridemage doesnt sound to bad but I guess you will have to up the Plateau count to actually get to play him when you need to.
I understood that Orbs are more general good against other decks. I will further test Shusher/Orb maybe it is worth the pain. Aslo Pyroclasm is an interesting SB choice I have missed during my last tournament.
I don´t think that pridemage is a good choice. The only enchantments that are really problematic are chalice and balance, and shusher handles both without lost of a threat. Other things like shackles or moat are too slow in the most cases to be problematic. Furthermore the casting coast is really bad u are forced to fetch plateau and taiga what u dont want without having nacatl.
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