The sb plan depends on how many slots are available. You can either go with the slow dredge ditching up to 8 slots (-4LED, -2DA, -1 DR, -1Sage or any card that has its effect) or you can go the more explosive plan that leaves the LED engine intact (-3 Study, -1DR, -1Sage, etc.).Originally Posted by GoldenCid
Against decks you usually need to race like goblins, aggro, red, or opposing combo, I'd go for the plan with the LED engine. Against decks that you are relatively faster than, like blue decks. The slow dredge is a better plan against them since pulling of the combo would be difficult against permissions.
What are the numbers of the mentioned cards in your maindeck?
What do you think on cutting 3 careful study and 1 DR for 4 Street wraith??
My list would run just 2 DR but with more food for ichorid. Do you think it worth??
You know I have never thought of taking the LED/DA package out for side board cards. I normally take a DR one of its targets, an imp and a dredger(i play 11). I think it is an interesting idea to take it out but you would have to go against a slower deck. In my experience once LED hits the board your generally win and even with the thinned out engine LED helps you hit home. I might have to try to take the LED package out sometime but I am not fully sure this is the best idea. We kinda need that explosiveness we don't have the proper configuration that the LEDless version has to still do well without the LED, my guess that it would slow us down by a full turn or two.
Also I will never side out careful studies they help you find your anti hate and this is fan freakingtastic. If I smell leyline I board in 5 things if I see blue along side i bring in 7 and then taking out LED package is a necessity.
@GoldenCid - Personally SW is garbage. I normally used him as ichy food and that was it. I think I already said this recently but in most cases I saw SW as a blank card in my hand, I had trouble deciding if my hand was a keeper. I also found few instances were his uncounterable draw was amazing. But power to you if you can get it to work with the right deck config.
@Parcher - Could you tell me what you would take out of the main board for firestorm and would quick aggro(goblins) be the only reason to side it in. I can see it good at discarding and clearing the board but that would also get rid of bridges and would never want to discard bridges to it. So basically my big question is why is firestorm the shit what role does it fill better than the other cards we have?
Last edited by e1567; 04-13-2009 at 10:50 PM. Reason: Grammer error
@GoldenCid - I'd have to agree with e1567. Street Wraith is an interesting card. it can give rise to very insane turn 1 plays for Dredge. But its usefulness as a combo component exponentially gets lower as the game goes on. Most of the time it is just gonna be ichorid fodder. It can shine during games where you can't get the combo together through permissions thus you go for the ichorid game plan. Careful Study is just better than wraith over-all. It digs more, it acts as a mini-breakthrough, and it also discards. It makes combo-ing out more stable. Plus, Dredge has more than enough ichorid fodder to finish the game-off as a last resort. Its a more stable and more consistent combo finish vs an explosive turn 1-2 and better late-game ichorid rush. Do try to test it out and post your results here.
@e1567 - Siding-out the LED engine usually just happens like you said when you have to handle multiple types of hate thus more sb cards are boarded-in. Explosiveness is crucial, alot of times i saw the deck just chain the hate then just win. That deck didn't run studies so it has 4 automatic open slots. It bends over to force though @_@
I will.
A brief review about Street wraith and Careful study ( + and - symbols are use strictily for comparisson between this 2 cards).
SW
-Mana free draw. (+)
-Black creature to feed ichorid. (+)
-Always useful in graveyard
- Small T1 combo engine: Land --> Putrid ---> Discard a dredger ----> Free dredge with SW. (+)
- Not countereable but stifeable. (Equlibrated tending to +)
- No discard outlet (-)
- Digs just 1 card (-)
- Free autoshock (-)
Careful Study
-1 mana requirement (-)
-Almost useless in graveyard (just retriable with EW but breakthrough is better in this point) (-)
-Discard outlet (+)
- Digs 2 cards (+)
- Not stifeable but countereable (Equilibrated tending to -)
And...by the way. What do you use against rock post side?? I have serious problems with that.
Last edited by GoldenCid; 04-12-2009 at 07:02 PM.
@Goldencid - I generally hate the positive and negative list, especially when it seems the person is a bit biased. First of all according to your list street wraith does have more positive points than careful study but careful study fills 2 vital roles where as SW really only fill the icky food strategy, on a minor note it does help facilitate the turn one win but if this is the case you might only have one discard outlet(i normally did in testing) and if that one outlet got forced you were fucked.
Simply because careful study fills two vital roles and does it for a simply blue mana, which all of your lands provide, I think it is much stronger. I have yet to test unmask in the careful study spots but I have a feeling that careful study is here to stay.
I could be wrong firestorm might just be stronger I dont know but I know SW is one of the weaker choices.
Back when myself and Baneoftheliving were discussing deck construction we both tried SW and found it weak and that was over a year ago. I have already done a lot of testing with it I played with it for about 2 months. Here is the list I tried out, also with the same list tried -1 ich +1 DR, different time -1 SW -1 Golgari Thug ,+1 DA + 1 DR and a couple of different config but still couldn't get the SW to play well with the rest of the deck. Also note I am in a very have control, aggro control environment, which is why I was so well prepared for GP Chicago.
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone mine
4 Cephalie colisium
4 Golgari-Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 LED
2 Deep analysis
4 Putrid Imp
4 Break Through
3 Street wraith
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Flame Kin
1 Cephalid Sage
2 Dread Return
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomeaba
4 Bridges from below
Again the above list is over a year old and I have dismissed it so please do not go ahead and critique it too heavily.
Dregdge is a car that has to reach 88mph to win. Careful study gets it to 50mph right out of the blue while Street Wraith only gives it a small boost after it's already going.
It's just differente cards, you can't make a direct comparison other than games won/lost with each list.
My vote is on Careful Study, this deck is good but it's more fragile than most people like to think. It has a lot of cards that do nothing on your hand (Bridge from Below) and when you mull to 6 and your only discard outlet gets countered and you're in a very sticky situation. The more possibilities of get to put that car in motion the better, LED + Deep Analysis does that without the need of lands, that's why it's so good.
Yeah...it could be. I've tested the deck back with careful study and it convinced me fairly more than SW. However i think that i'll play with a 12 lands mana base intead of 11. I'll cut 1 DR and add the 4th gemstome mine to make the opening hand stabilier and to reduce the mulligan number.
If you mean what do I side out for Firestorm, it would depend on which deck I am playing against. For example, against the aforementioned Goblins, I side out 2 LED, 2 DA, 1 FKZ, and 4 Unmask for 4 Firestorm, 1 Ancestor's Chosen and 4 Needle on the draw. The fact that it removes Bridges is completely irrelevant against Goblins, since they have functionally infinite ways to do this already. While Firestorm has multiple uses against most decks, against Goblins for instance, clearing the board is enough to win by itself. I've also burned out multiple Goblins players by using it as direct damage. I don't quite understand what rolling shit has to do with anything.
~ Team Unicorn Motto
The sexy thing about Firestorm is that it solves your big problem with aggro decks-buying time to beat them to death with ichorids/dr dudes-in an elegant way, because it's low costing and allows you to discard whatver you want, and so you can board out stuff without going below a critical mass of outlets for discard. Then there's the gravy, like the fact that it works around Blood Moon, or that you will sometimes catch an AdN/Elves player with their pants down or the like.
Careful Study being counterable isn't such a negative. I find it more of a positive because it attracts counters that shoud've been for an imp, a therapy, a return, and sometimes you catch them off-guard, even a breakthrough. I just has a multitude of uses that all of which just makes the deck better.
Rock for me is a very difficult match-up. Most rocks usually have Deed maindeck and Leyline or Wheel of Sun and Moon in the mainboard. 4 Chain of Vapor is a must in game 2. Not being able to handle any of those two early on is practically game over. Chain also lets you see what stuff your opponent sided-in giving you a clue to what which pinpoint answers to you need to replace the chains, for game 3 if you get there of decide to change it. Some rock also run jailers and extirpates. Extirpates you can live through, you'd rather see that over leyline or wheel any day. Although it can wreck you at times when they take out the right cards, you just therapy that away. As for jailer, chain again is an option, just chain EOT, then win. Otherwise, you can bring-in either firestorm or contagion to deal with him. I recommend just siding-in Chains first as an answer all for what your opponent may bring in. You'd have real problems if your opponents sided-in a combination of extirpate, leyline, wheel and jailer. Chain would be great in that, it's just that the variety in the hate maybe too overwhelming for you
Last edited by bum_man; 04-13-2009 at 01:04 AM. Reason: revised some errors
Maybe needle is useful too...
Are you running ancestor's?? I thought you don't. Please show me your SB list.
Yes needle is an option. But for me, id rather have answers for them if they have leyline or wheel or jailer. I don't mind having deeds in play because i can always return a troll with a zealot. Im more worried about leyline etc. because they flat-out stop your deck from functioning. I'd rather win in a difficult fashion rather not having a chance to win at all. Needles are always good but they only stop deed. There are alot more dangerous threats that you should look out for apart for that is answerable by Chain of Vapor over Needle. You can put in both but the problem is you don't have a lot of slots open. You can't take out many combo pieces to thin the combo-out because rock decks have surprisingly fast clocks. You still need to race them at some point. Needles are good in the match-up but other cards can be better against this match-up.
Last edited by bum_man; 04-13-2009 at 11:52 PM. Reason: wrong word used
I edited the my post I meant "What role does firestorm fulfill"
I am surprised that you put unmask in what will that do if they have tormod's(granted if you lose the first game it will be good but not so if you win), the goblin players around me actually still run leyline for the thresh matchup and myself.
I don't understand why you say they have infinite ways to remove our bridges main board they have fanatic side they have the normal stuff.
I would never take out the LED and DA package against them you still need to race them. Firestorm might help but goblins to have a very good back up plan of killing our rainbow sources as soon as possible. In my experience I do rather well against goblins in the first match but have trouble when the hate shows up. Since they have the hate but can still potentially win on turn 3.
I might try your strategy but I find taking LED out makes this deck much weaker(even if it is not in opening hand having careful study really helps finding it). What does your side look like.
In order to try firestorm I am thinking of
4 Pithing needle
4 Chain of Vapor
3 Firestorm
4 Unmask(I also want to give this a shot don't know if I should wait for another test to try it out)
Old side
4 Pithing needle
4 Chalice of the void
4 Chain of vapor
2 echoing truth
1 cabal therapy
I was using the list I used at the GP and that had no city and 4 seas.
I clearly stated that Unmask was among the cards removed on the draw in Game 2 against Goblins. It may come back in Game 3 if on the play, depending on their build.
Most Goblins builds run four Fanatics, at least two Siege-Gang, and at least three Warren's Weirding. A good amount still have access to Prospector, and most will have Sharpshooter main or side. All remove bridges, as will any regular blocks. In addition, an active Sharpshooter is unbeatable without removal since he will both remove your Bridges and kill your Ichorids every turn.
Ichorids can easily race Goblins, even without Bridge tokens; it is an awful deck defensively. Firestorm facilitates this. I literally haven't lost to the deck but once in a tournament in the past year. And that was against Turpyn running a set of Fanatics and Prospectors main along with a Sharpshooter, with Crypts and a second Sharpshooter in the side. Firestorm in conjunction with Witness and Chosen makes the match easy most often. If they open with the Turn three win+Graveyard hate....oh well. No deck deserves that treatment better than Ichorid.
My sideboard now is:
2-4 Firestorm (testing 1-2 main)
3-4 Chain of Vapor
2 Wispmare
1 Ancestor's Chosen
4-6 flex slots
I wish I could be more specific, but Needle, Chalice, Unmask, extra land, Ancient Grudge, and a couple of cards I'm keeping under wraps are floating through at the moment. The ones mentioned never change though.
~ Team Unicorn Motto
My actual Side is:
3 Unmask
4 Pithing needle
4 Firestorm
4 Chian of vapor
Running a maindeck similar to yours with 3 careful study instead of unmask.
I'd like to found a place for chosen, because it makes me feel confortable against some matchs. I'm seriously considering in running 3 unmask maindeck cutting the mentioned careful study. My trouble with unmask is the election of the black card to remove with it. In my actual build with 2 DR, i think that this card can't be removed anymore. Maybe if i run unmask (a manaless card), may be go back to the 11 lands mana base and the 3rd DR could be usefull, couldn`t it?
On the other hand i win 3 slots for sideboard, being one for the ancestor and 2 flex maybe for wispmare.
What do you think about this?? And another question...which is the desacceleration in comboing due to unmask??
For the past few months I've been running 11 lands, 4 Unmask and 2 Dread main and it has been spectacular. The 11 lands can sometimes be an issue post-board, which is why I've been testing the 12th in the side. Running 2 Dread has only been an issue against Combo, or if my opponent topdecked hate. As in situations where you go off turns 1-3, but must pass the turn for lack of a DR. Since I've won 95% of those games the following turn, I haven't felt the need to add the 3rd back.
Removing a card for Unmask has never been an issue, even if it is a Dread Return. The ability to start the combo while disrupting the opponent all on turn one is priceless. Running four mot only enables this, it givesa better chance of pitching Unmask to Unmask.
I've never liked Careful Study, as I've always said. It's conditionally a good card, but both situationally, and functionally it has always proven weaker than the more specialized options.
I don't understand your last sentence.
~ Team Unicorn Motto
What i meant is that careful study puts a dredger in your yard and unmask not. So, you delay the oppenet's strategy but you also delay putting a dredger at the same time except you have an imp. I felt this like slowing comboing off. Just an idea...
Turn One:
1. Lay land
2. Unmask targeting self. Place Dredger in Graveyard.
3. Play Breakthrough (or Careful Study).
4. Win
Pretty fast, neh?
~ Team Unicorn Motto
@ Parcher: What do you cut to test the 1-2 Firestorm in the main. Unmask or something other?
Kenjawn, Mutator of Cells
:16:- (See, now Erratic Explosion's a deck)
Legendary Creature - Horror
Haste, Hexproof, Double Strike, Trample
Kenjawn, Mutator of Cells is indestructible.
Permanents you control can't be sacrificed or copied.
Whenever Kenjawn, Mutator of Cells attacks, defending player gets liver cancer (This effect doesn't end at end of turn.)
13/13
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