Since where on the topic..
I would like to repost what i've posted earlier with regards to 1 drops. Currently where if your playing faefolk or full merfolk list the 1 drop consists averagely of only 8-10 cards 4 cursecatcher 4 aethervial 2 tidal warrior.
In my earlier posts i suggested that maybe Mothdust Changeling could be given a chance uping the 1 drop to 11-12 giving you a higher chance of droping a 1st turn threat. I suggested him bec he could boost the countering ability of spellstutter, gains bonus from lords and has an evasion if you need it.
Yes waterfront bouncer seems to be good defensively but the merfolk is slow as it is giving it more utility creatures over offensive ones i think is not the right choice... The deck has on spot removal assuming your running mono blue if you add utility creatures your slowing your damage per turn.
A friend of mine suggested why don't you cut standstill and go all out aggro and up my creature count to 24 instead of 21. I told him that the 3 draw coming from standstill is too good to pass but on the other hand can you cast all of those creatures at once assuming you all get creatures from your standstill draw. No you have limited mana as it is but that would give you a bluff hand and a continous drop of threat every turn. You can do that if your creatures are combat compitent but sadly merfolks have no evasion, no first strike, needs tidal warrir + LoA trick which sometimes doesn't happen constantly.
So the more damage you do early on the better chance you could finish off your opponent and making each crack of his fetch sting more...
Im also leaning towards redcuing my aether vial count to 3 instead of 4 and adding more one drops becuase drawing an aether vial mid to late game is kinda useless
Cutting Stifles doesnt make the deck slower. Not playing Tidal Warrior alongside Cursecatcher does which I do not recommend actually. What you forget about is that if I have a Vial or a Cursecatcher (or Tidal Warrior) in my opening hand I will always play Vial on the play and maybe also a threat especially with Standstill in hand. On the draw this may be slightly differ by opponent but usually this is the strongest play. Vial allows you to power out twice as much creatures a turn. But what I am actually try to point out is that although Stifle costs one mana I rarely played it turn 1 because I do not leave mana open for e.g. Fetchlands and on the draw ppl tend to crack their fetches before your turn begins in fear of Stifle. So I can't see where Stifle speeds up the deck because it just fits the curve nicely. Cutting Relics completely e.g. for Jitte is no good solution imho because you have much slower control over the most dangerous beaters and stallers Goyf and Stalker that even when just stalling can cost you games. So to make it faster you need more 1cc creatures ... where Tidal Warrior comes in again. Unfortunately the good choices for 1cc creatures in blue that fit into Merfolks are very rare and none is really convincing. I think that this lack of strong choices apart from the obvious 16 also lead to the fact FaeFolk is considered as a mitigation. But the longer this thread gets the more prove I find that this solution doesnt do the trick.Originally Posted by Piceli89
You covered your behind by saying "approx" but how did you not know that the chance of drawing a 1 of in the opening hand was 7/60? (Provided your cards are equally likely to be drawn.)
He was making a list. With 1/60 he meant the chance of a 1-of in a 60-card deck to appear in the starting 7. With 2/60 he meant the chance of a 2-of in a 60 card deck to appear in the starting 7. And so on and so forth.
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's probably delicious.
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@Shackles:
I have tried it in my sb as a singelton. I really liked it when playing against goblins and that sorts of decks. The hard thing is to get to 3+2 mana, but when you did... it was most often gg. The other problem with the card is that it attracts Krosan Grips like a sandwich attracts ants. We have no outs for Grips as far as I know... :/
@1 drops:
This is really important and I been over this with myself before. 8 1 dropps is to few. Perhaps adding a few fetches and Ponder/Brainstorm? 10-14 1-drops is enough I think. It also makes Daze worse since you can play Island go, Daze, Island go. And that doesn't look good to me...
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@1 drops
I've test 11 1cc card and it made the deck more aggressive early on the problem is that when mid range to fatty creatures comes out slowly your troops gets killed one by one. Even if you have lords in play.
Im still at a lost with regards to the magic number when it comes into lands. I ran 19 lands 4 fetch and 5 colorless mana 3 mutavaults 2 riptide lab, with 2 brainstorm and 2 ponder. It still struggles from mana flood and mana drought.
I removed standstill from my list and i it was okay.
Oh by the way Mothdust Changeling is not bad as you think when you tried him..
Other cards that i want to test out are Saprazzan Heir and Inkfathom Inflitrator
I miss tidal warrior aswell it makes damage race against fatties almost equal
Just saying, the best 1CC spells in Blue tend to not be creatures.
Brainstorm, Ponder, Stifle, Spell Snare, Opt, suspending an Ancestral Visions, etc. All seem to be better options than most 1-drop Merfolk. I think if you're going the LD route you want Stifle. Otherwise you want either Snare or some draw spell.
It's probably a weak idea, but anyone tried out Force Spike, just to be absurdly over the top with Daze and Cursecatcher?
I love the idea, Taco, but the ist turn is so loaded up with important plays that I would not go that route. In particular, it is already hard to watch an opponent crack a fetchland (although necessary) when you just dropped a turn 1 vial and you are holding Stifle.
Ah, I see. I missed a few posts. You guys cutting Stifle are nuts.
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A while ago I tried out force spike, and the problem was that people would just play around it (and you would usually end up wasting time that you could have used to play something bigger). I would like to hear other people's opinions on them though.
@Finn: Normally, I would agree with you. Stifle is an awesome card, and in a vacuum, it's probably the best one-mana disruption spell available for this deck.
Here's the problem though: Competitive play doesn't operate within a vacuum. Merfolk is much more of a well-known deck than it was maybe four or five months ago, and consequently, people are much more likely to expect us to run certain cards (the best examples being Stifle, Standstill, and Daze) and learn to proactively play around these cards.
In my mind, this is the problem that I'm seeking to address. I look at Merfolk as a very good deck which I know and love dearly, but let's face it: it's somewhat of a metagame deck. This means that when the metagame evolves, we have to advance with it.
So exactly what am I saying here: have people stopped using fetch-lands, Storm combo, Engineered Explosives, and Pernicious Deed? Most definitely not. So why is Stifle becoming less good? The number one reason is that people expect us to use it. An experienced player that knows he is playing against Merfolk (and let's face it, our first turn usually makes it pretty obvious that's what we're using), if he knows this, he will wait to crack his fetches until we're tapped out, or else do so after we drop a Vial or Cursecatcher on our first turn. This is unless he really needs the land right then to play something crucial and there isn't any other way for him to make his land drop. In that case, he will risk it, but we may or may not even have the Stifle to shut him down.
In my humble opinion, the reason that Merfolk loses most of the matches that it does is this: It is a very good deck, but it runs a fair amount of cards which are potentially awesome against the right deck, but usually end up being dead cards against the wrong deck. As I've said, I think the clearest examples of this type of card in the deck are Stifle, Standstill, and Daze. (I can already hear someone heckling "Just sideboard those cards out when they're bad!" Ok, but what about the possibility of finding replacements for them which are perhaps more generalized towards the meta-game rather than occupying a powerful, but specific niche?) Personally I feel that Stifle is the most likely of the three to sit in one's hand as a dead card, and that's why I've been trying the deck without it.
...So, does that make it seem any less crazy to you?
Last edited by DukeDemonKn1ght; 04-17-2009 at 06:39 PM.
Bless your heart, we must consider Blue/White Tempo's strategy and win percentages in an entirely different deck thread. -4eak
Stifle does well against a lot of decks. It's good against a large number of popular cards
Fetchlands
Wasteland
Chrome Mox
Storm Finishers
Trinket Mage
Imperial Recruiter
Paging through the DTW list, most decks feature at least 8 cards with effects that can be usefully countered by Stifle. The primary exception that I see is stompy decks.
The problem, as Duke mentioned in the post just before yours, is people play around stifle if they realize they're facing down merfolk. As such - that means you are going to have effectively 3-4 dead cards in your deck.
This is precisely why I've moved my Stifles to the SB.
With regards to stifle
Yes its a good card but as ive been playing this deck for quite awhile now i felt that is more suited as an SB card rather than in the MB.
I've tried several builds in where stifle could be maximized to the fullest but it only works in certain decks. I've run this configuration 4 stifle, 2 phyrexian dreadnought, 3 wastelands, 2 rishadan ports and 2 tidal warrior. I've also tried 4 stifle, 2 phyrexian dreadnought, and 3 back to basics.
I know moving stilfe in the sb list would hurt my 1 game agaisnt rock decks which run pernicious deeds. I think its more of a meta game call.
Currently im running a full aggro list 24 creatures 3 jitte's and no standstill. but with 3 ponders.
Yes standstill is an awesome card draw 3 yummy !! but with more threat drops early on it gives you a jump start over your opponent and merfolk is not good in late game (for me) so whats the use of drawing 3 cards if you have few threats early on and 1 mid range creature or 1 fatty could kill all your troops each turn.
Duke that was a good argument. I wanna ask you something,though. Would you play a Stripmine that did not tap for mana? That is the situation that arises when the opponent leaves a fetchland for fear of stifle. While I cant say with complete conviction that it makes the card a definite winner, I have been playing it that way amd I am comfortable with the scenario that insues. Of course the card has all its other uses as well, but the mana disruption is what I gather you mean when you say people play around it. And that also does not include people who do not play around it.
"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."
"Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed often and for the same reason."
"Governing is too important to be left to people as silly as politicians."
"Politicians were mostly people who'd had too little morals and ethics to stay lawyers."
If your opponent plays around Stifle, in effect making him slow down his tempo by not cracking fetchlands right away, waiting for you to tap all your mana before he cracks one, etc., then Stifle has done its job, right? And that's even without casting it. You might not even have it in your hand, or deck, for that matter.
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That's exactly what I've found to be true so far. Since everyone has it ingrained in their mind to play around Stifle the moment they see the first Cursecatcher hit the table, you virtually get 3 or 4 free slots in your deck by not playing Stifle. I don't know though, there are some match-ups where bluffing a Stifle doesn't do any good, such as against Storm or something using EE or Pernicious Deed... But it's kinda hard to find space for Stifle in the sideboard, I've found so far. Needle does the job against EE and Deed, but not against Storm... So in the end, I may go back to using it and secretly praying for a Force of Will to pitch it to when it's sitting dead in my hand.... Ugh. Talk about a Catch 22.
EDIT: Another piece of anti-Storm tech with a wide range of generalized uses is Thorn of Amethyst, now that I think about it. I could see running 2 Thorn in the sideboard and just completely going without Stifle if I determine that all Stifle is essential for is Storm hate and I still need more defense against Storm than 4 Cursecat, 4 Daze, 4 FoW...
The more I think about it though, I've noticed that my Merfolk decks I've been testing, be they Riptide Laboratory variants or Minamo variants, gain a better ability to deal damage to the opponent by not using Stifle. Being able to add three creatures, Ponder, Jitte, Kira, what-have-you... it's a pretty significant gain. Especially when everyone's fear of the bogieman does about 50% of Stifle's job for you anyways.
Bless your heart, we must consider Blue/White Tempo's strategy and win percentages in an entirely different deck thread. -4eak
Duke, what exactly are you arguing?
Let's say people start believing you and no one runs stifles anymore. Well, it's going to start being pretty obvious to people who initially played around stifles that we aren't packing them anymore.
What you're doing is riding a wave of virtual card advantage by being able to pretend that you have a card that you don't even play. Sure, it may make people play differently because they see a Merfolk and an untapped island.
But what you're suggesting is ridiculous. When people stop playing stifle it isn't still going to be played around. Your virtual advantage is then completely lost, and people will be able to play as if you don't have it.
So really, if you don't want to run stifle then you should encourage others to run it, to give your virtual card advantage actual virtual advantage. Convincing others on this subject is completely against your point, because if enough people believe you, then your point is invalid.
Stifle is still worth running, regardless of other people knowing about it. I've played against this deck enough times to know that even though the merfolk player needs to keep an island up the whole time, the stifle on my fetchland is game breaking. Sure it's 1 land per side that is unusable, and 1 card in the merfolk player's hand, but in a lot of situations it is much better for the merfolk player because there is a vial in play, more creatures in play, or mutavaults in play on their side. Keeping some decks mana screwed, or just slowing them down a few turns is by far enough to win games.
Not to mention Deeds, EE, vial triggers, equipment hijinks, and so many other things that largely affect the game. Being able to be pitched for FoW is a huge huge bonus. Your Vizzerdrix comment is stupid. Vizzerdrix doesn't shut down some decks when played for 1 mana. Stifle is a card that is very good against a few decks, good against most other decks, and only bad against 3 decks I can think of in the format (Burn, TA, and Dragon Stompy). Against these matchups, it pitches easily to FoW, which is good since against these decks you usually don't want to pitch your folks. Don't try strawman fallacies like "PiTcH tO fOrCe = GoOd?!? LeTs PlAy ViZzErDrIx!!!!"
First of all, I don't see anything that was so unduly inappropriate about my previous post that it merited deletion. Phoenix has a history of flaming my ideas on this thread, so I think it's well within my rights to say it wouldn't feel like home without him trying to make me look like an a-hole.
@Phoenix Ignition: First of all, your argument that I should tell everyone to keep playing Stifle if I want to gain virtual card advantage by not playing it, although in a way being logically sound, is kind of ridiculous. I don't give people advice for my own Machiavellian goals, I do it to provide a point of view and hopefully be helpful. I wouldn't intentionally tell people to do something just so I can gain an advantage by doing the opposite. Perhaps it's merely the fact that I don't think this is such a well-visited forum of discussion that one random guy's suggestions about the Merfolk deck are going to single-handedly change the meta-game overnight.
On the individual merits of Stifle: I'm by no means saying it's a bad card. What I'm saying is that I feel that its inclusion is not as "set in stone" as some folks tout it as being, and that there are potential gains to be made by not running it. I've put in my time playing this deck with three Stifles in the main, so don't act like I have no prior experience to base my opinions on. Please don't condescend to me based on your supposed mastery of this deck; I play it a lot too, and I win more matches than I lose. I think we both know basically what we're doing here, and it's a little insulting for you to try to tear me down because my logic doesn't match yours.
All the arguments you make about the times you actually do need Stifle in-hand, if you will notice, I addressed preemptively in the post you were responding to. You know, when I said "I don't know though, there are some match-ups where bluffing a Stifle doesn't do any good, such as against Storm or something using EE or Pernicious Deed... But it's kinda hard to find space for Stifle in the sideboard, I've found so far. Needle does the job against EE and Deed, but not against Storm..." Go ahead and read what I've written before you point your finger at me about the things I've supposedly been too thick-headed to pay attention to.
***This is really not wholly intended to sound crabby, but I am quite a little tired of all the derision that's been heaped on me by you, Phoenix, regarding this deck's development over the past few months.
Why don't we both look at this thread as a forum for discussion without all the attitude, rather than a playground for us to patrol, telling people we don't like to shut up?
On the "Vizzerdrix straw man": This was obviously not a serious suggestion. What I was illustrating is that the argument that Stifle pitches to Force of Will is somewhat of a straw man, and not at all the correct reason to validate its inclusion in the deck. I realize that Stifle is much much better than Vizzerdrix... That's precisely why I chose Vizzerdrix as my example, because it's so obviously a sub-par card. This was intentionally meant to be an argument that anyone could see as ironic; I was making a "stupid" argument, as you call it, so that folks could see that Stifle's ability to pitch to Force of Will is a non-issue as long as its slot is taken by another blue card. In a deck that is mono-blue and runs about 6-8 artifacts in the main, there are plenty of cards that will pitch to Force of Will, so it's not very relevant that Stifle can also pitch to FoW.
For the record, let me say this one more time: Stifle is a very powerful card, and you can get a lot of good use out of it. However, I find it slightly awkward to hold one blue open for it during the early game, as there is usually something I would rather spend my mana on than to hopefully deny my opponent of a fetch-land activation. Its role versus Storm is irreplaceable; however there are some cards that may be considered for the sideboard that would minimize the loss of Stifle in this match-up. Also, against many of the things that Stifle shuts down, Pithing Needle is a potential inclusion in the sideboard. Although the ability to counter triggered abilities is what puts Stifle a step ahead of the curve, Pithing Needle will handle about 80% of the things you wanted Stifle for in the first place.
At the moment I feel that the use of Stifle boils down to personal play style, opinion, and one's predictions about the meta-game they're going into. There may be a 'correct' consensus to be reached, and it may in fact be to include Stifle and to ignore the arguments I've made for going without it. In the end, I'm not to be the judge of this, except for myself. You, as the reader, and as the player and deck designer, must ultimately make this decision.
Bless your heart, we must consider Blue/White Tempo's strategy and win percentages in an entirely different deck thread. -4eak
You never responded to my post. I love how powerful it feels when you automatically go into Super Saiyan 3 to try to respond to something I write. Makes me happy.
Your 2 reasons for taking out Stifle are 1, that you can pretend you have it since most merfolk players do, and 2, the extra other cards might be better.
I merely said your argument for 1 is completely ridiculous. You have absolutely no response to that, which is good, since if you did it would be completely illogical.
Your argument for 2 is one of those "well I'm sure we might possibly have a small chance at probably almost maybe finding a different card for the slot." That's cool, I'm sure there are plenty of cards that you could use in this slot, but you fail to mention any specific card that you recommend. I gave my reasons for using Stifle, but here's one more. If people have mass removal for your merfolks, adding in more creatures is most of the time not going to help. Having a card that helps you along your 1. Tempo, 2. Mana screwing, 3. protecting from mass removal, and 4. stopping a lot of random other things is going to do more than a creature in the 3 slot.
And obviously obviously the deck you run is based off of what you decide to run.
Completely agree. I also think its best if people can agree to disagree, there may well be different lists that are viable here (shocking I know..).
I'm fairly new to this style of Merfolk, having played an old fish deck with Winter Orb years ago. While Stifle and Standstill can be powerful, I'm testing a list without either, though I think the latter has a better chance of creeping in than the former.
The early game I want to spend laying threats and countering, and rarely have a mana for stifle. Standstill is a little more complicated, its great when you have better board position, but does nothing when you don't. I just found too often it was too even to play Standstill, with lots of decks I'd test running Wastelands/Manlands, and didn't want to leave the result to chance.
Thats said, Spellstutter Sprite (which took Standstills spot) is great in some matchups, horrible in others, so we'll see.
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