Wouldn't it make more sense not to rely solely on the Coatl?Originally Posted by FoolofaTook
I'll sleeve it up and test it regardless, but it still seems like a bad idea.
edit: Foils are already going for around $8 apiece! Wow.
You may want to change this thread's title at some point to reflect the card's actual name.
This card is pretty unfair.
After playing just ~10 games and a few goldfishes with this card, I have come to the conclusion that Legacy will be crappy with this card legal.
There's simply no reason not to play UG Thresh. And more specifically CB/Top thresh with this and a ton of draw spells clogging up the deck. I don't see any room for creativity. Threshold shell already has all the tools required to abuse this card. This card also solves the problems for Threshold:
1) Lack of great creatures outside of Tarmogoyf in general. You really need to run 10ish creatures at least so that the creatures can support each other and get around the very cheap, very efficient 4-of answers that your opponent packs. People were filling these slots with crap. Werebear, Nimble Mongoose, recently Trygon Predator are not good creatures and essentially just filler. Coatl turns the worst slots in Thresh into the best slots.
2) Graveyard dependence. With Tarmogoyf and Mongooses and maybe Enforcers or something, Relic is an extremely strong card, and people are getting wise to that and running Relic en masse. Coatl simply does not care (and Goyf will eventually grow back).
3) Lack of a strong midgame-endgame card that could trump opponent's Goyfs. Decks like Team America, Eva Green, etc. were simply running their own Goyfs and standing up the red zone. These Goyf-splash decks simply stand no chance as they'll lose every single Goyf standoff to a deck packing Coatl. Tombstalkers and even Dreadnoughts were used to very strong effect during a Goyf standoff by other decks to beat up on Threshold's lack of a trump spell.
Now, there's Coatl. Tombstalker and even Dreadnought can get beaten by this. Threshold no longer has to look out for getting trumped. It no longer has to win the early game. It's simply extremely powerful at every level of the game. You don't have to turn to Mystic Enforcer anymore.
The main difference is that other cards coming in helped crappy decks become competitive. Thresh is already dominant, and people have been trying to crack it for years. Recently we got Relic, but Coatl definitely undoes Relic by removing graveyard dependency. Even if you disagree with me that Coatl will doom Legacy to mirror matchups (at the very least, destroying virtually every non-Thresh tier 1 deck), you have to notice that Coatl is different from anything we've seen recently, because it helps an already dominant deck.
Anyway, let's clear up some misconceptions:
"Coatl is just KotR #2." No. First of all, KotR is a piece of shit and I don't think anybody actually thought it'd be good (especially after maybe playtesting it). Coatl grows faster and doesn't have to tap to get huge. It's MUCH better.
Secondly, KotR was going to be good in a fringe deck. Sorry AggroLoam fans, but AggroLoam has not been Tier 1 since at least Ad Nauseum, and the white splash does not make the deck more relevant. Even if AggroLoam got much better, it'd be at most like a borderline tier 1 deck.
Coatl fits right into the best deck in the format already and makes it much better. Sure, Nassif Threshold / Baseruption/NLU (whatever you call it) is not clearly established as the best deck, but I don't think there are any other possible contenders.
(I think that Countryside Crusher also fits into this category. The comparison to Coatl is valid, but the shells are not even in the same league. Without Countryside Crusher, AggroLoam would not be competitive. Even with CC, it's pretty borderline tier 2. Coatl's shell destroys everything and Coatl does make Thresh significantly better).
"This card is worse than Tarmogoyf." I can't believe someone posted this as an argument. It's totally irrelevant because they go in the SAME DECK. Everyone who could would run like 15 goyfs. Well, Coatl puts you that much closer.
"This card is just like Ad Nauseum, remember when people thought it would ruin the game?" Probably, but again, Ad Nauseum helped out a tier 2+ deck. SI and Iggy/Pop weren't even the dominant combo decks when Ad Nauseum came out. Definitely the props go to Ichorid. It was about as fast, more consistent, and harder to disrupt. Ad Nauseum let Tendrils combo blow Ichorid away and become much better, but it's still possible to disrupt.
I'll admit that I thought Ad Nauseum would flip the format upside down, but even I saw back then that answers existed. I thought Ad Nauseum would ruin the game because I didn't imagine that it'd bump Ichorid out of contention. As it stood, everyone just went: -8 gy hate, +8 storm combo hate and life was back to normal.
But again, this card is going to get played in and greatly help the strongest deck in the format. We already can't crack Nassif Thresh. The raw power level just lets it blow past all the tier two decks no matter what they do, and even the tier 1 decks have to make big changes to deal with Nassif Thresh.
Nassif Thresh just became that much better, and that much more centralized.
4x Goyf.
4x Coatl.
4x Bob (or whatever, Sower, Tombstalker, w/e)
4x CB
4x Top
4x Swords or Snuff Out
4x BS
2-4x Ponder
4x Force
2-4x Daze
20 land.
I don't see how you could not run that. Or more to the point: I don't see how any modern deck can deal with that.
As much as I enjoy playing with the Coatl at the moment, there is a little nagging voice in the back of my mind telling me that the shit is nuts busted, so I'm inclined to half-agree with Forbiddian.
However, the difference is... I don't think they should or will ban anything at least until next Spring, if then. The reason is, they have shown us that they are willing to do something about Tarmogoyf by printing this creature. They are encouraging more removal, more effects like Sower of Temptation and Oblivion Ring, and in general forcing our hands in shifting the metagame. If the next block doesn't power up some other deck, I will be surprised. I feel like everything is moving towards correcting itself.
@ FoolofaTook
From testing, I can't see more than 2x Library in the deck. It costs a lot for what you get. It just isn't up to par with the other 2cc spells in the deck.Sensei's Divining Top is not coming out for Sylvan Library, Ponder is.
Ponder is staying in the deck. It's extremely undercosted, immediate, and next to top, it might just be the best turn 1 play in the deck. Ponder's ability to shuffle is just too powerful to pass up.
Ponder becomes more necessary for Coatl combat plays involving Brainstorm. If you are saving Brainstorm, and you'll still want to be digging and shuffling, then Ponder will be filling in the gaps.
Library is usually win-more, just like Top + Top is going to be win-more most of the time. Save your mana and card slots for Ponder. It is the necessary spell when you are in tight positions or when you are losing, while Library will not be helping you nearly as well in those positions.
peace,
4eak
I've had this discussion before, but in brief: If they ban anything, it'll be Brainstorm/Ponder/Top.
Wizards has established that they'll ban the non-creature part of a "combo" regardless of if the creature is the degenerate part or not.
Mask/Nought: Mask is certainly not broken. The most you could do is like mask in a Haunted Horror.
Flash/Hulk: Hulk is definitely the busted part of the combo. Flash is a turd.
EDIT: I thought of the counterexample Worldgorger Dragon, but I'm nearly 100% sure they would have simply axed Animate Dead were it the only animate enchantment. As is, they had to deal with Necromancy, Animate Dead, and Dance of the Dead, so banning just the Dragon was the obvious economical decision.
And then in vintage, Gush/Brainstorm/Ponder fiasco, which I think is absolutely identical to this problem.
But again, the bottom line is: It's totally irrelevant whether the creature is "busted" or not. The problem is that it fits so perfectly in an already dominant deck that people have been working very hard at least the last two months after Chicago to crack. At the very least, LSV thought it was the best deck in the format two months ago, and it's only gotten much much better with this card and nothing has been printed that I see to slow it down (and there's no prospect of better non-basic hate at least for the next three sets before shards rotates).
I tend to think that the creature is a little too strong. I think it probably would still see play at 4, and 3 just makes it into one of the top creatures in Legacy. That's not the problem. The problem is that the only deck in the format that can use it is on top of the game, and it fills up all the holes that the deck wanted to fill.
The question is: What deck could stand up to Nassif Thresh. I don't think there's anything. Even making the pussiest-possible-change: -2 Trygon Predator, +2 Coatl, you're looking at a massive improvement (I quote Nassif as saying he thought Trygon was the worst card in the deck and was disappointed with it).
Why are people assuming that you have to run gimmicks with this card to make it worthwhile? I just played a deck Forbiddian and I were testing, which previously beat thresh about 75% of the time (back in the day when it actually used threshold effects.) Now I played 6 games against him on nassif thresh with this beast of a card, and won exactly 0 games. The matches took approximately 2.5 hours. I thought every play through, and still won 0 games. I would only say I got extremely unlucky once.
Forbiddian, you are talking as if this card is the death of magic, or at least the death of Legacy...
Why is KotR a piece of shit? It is the same to Loam decks, what the Coatl is to Brainstorm decks.
And (as somebody already said) a vanilla beater usually does not improve any bad matchups.
What was the theme of the next block? Wasn't it something jungle related? I guess you will get your Snake-Tribal. :-(
@Topic
It looks to me a bit uber as well, it fits just to well. Maybe the costs should have been different. GGU would have been better... Buy some additional copys of Perish guys, the price will rise...
2cent
@ TheLion
We all know it isn't the end =)...You do have admit that it may be a bit imbalancing because this card directly strengthens what is already the strongest archetype in the format. If it improved a tier 2 deck, then it would be less worrisome.Forbiddian, you are talking as if this card is the death of magic, or at least the death of Legacy...
While it may not be the death of the format, I don't think it is improper to say a card is too far above the power curve (a bit OP). I look at Goyf, AdN, CB/Top, Chalice, Lackey, Vial, StP, Brainstorm, Wasteland, and FoW as being too far above the curve, and the same might be case for Coatl. Perhaps Coatl is a bit too powerful compared to the rest of magic as well. (In case your wondering, I realize there is always going to be some "best" cards, but I'm only questioning the margin by which they are the best.)
Yeah, Coatl is a vanilla beater who can't block for the first turn he's in play, unless you have Brainstorm in hand. But, after a single turn, he becomes a monster. You'll average 4-5 p/t on his second turn, and he only grows worse.And (as somebody already said) a vanilla beater usually does not improve any bad matchups.
The card is offensively stronger than Tarmogoyf, and is usually within 1 turn of being as defensively effective as Tarmogoyf. He curbs GY weaknesses, pitches to Force, plays around CB decks which don't have enough 3cc, and improves your CB curve. The CB strength though, is also his weakness and the only thing that keeps the card in check: he is a hefty 3cc in a deck which only plays 18-19ish land traditionally.
He's a good addition to the dominant archetype in the format. Threshold doesn't have any terrible matchups that are extremely viable in the first place. Thresh always has a chance against the format, and Coatl is probably going to improve those odds in general.
peace,
4eak
Looking at it again a couple of things occur to me. First it is uncommon so it will be easy to ban if they choose to do it. No $40 price tag to piss off the people who buy it as it ramps up in popularity and price. It'll be a $5 card at worst.
Second, I agree with the people who see it as a potential trojan horse aimed at Brainstorm. Brainstorm is the card most likely to be badly broken in combination with coatl since it is already extremely powerful on it's own and it now functions as a permanent giant growth in combination with coatl.
I'll bet coatl stays in the format and Brainstorm is banned at some point. Banning Brainstorm would weaken Tarmogoyf also since it would weaken the decks that Tarmogoyf is most powerful in.
I'll be a sad panda if they ban Brainstorm. It's my favorite card! And then it will not be fully legal in any format outside of casual. :(
Interestingly enough, my thought (especially when Gargantuan had it's initial "return to hand" wording) was that the onslaught of high quality UG creatures was paving the way for some kind of axe on Tarmogoyf. However, since Gagantuan doesn't have the cool wording anymore, your theory seems pretty solid. Is there an open watch list for cards in Legacy right now?
Last edited by TorpidNinja; 04-25-2009 at 12:12 PM. Reason: gramer rulz
I can't follow your argumentation and all the hype you are putting into Coatl. Brainstorm and Coatl are just 2 cards, which happen to have synergies. It's not a game winning combo, just a synergy like Crucible/Wasteland, Flagstones/Armageddon, Stifle/Nought, Loam/Cyclelands/Terravore, CB/Top, Kird Ape/Forest, Arcbound Ravager/Disciple of the Vault and many others.
Things like that happen quite often in Legacy, and most of those cards are good on their own, too (Stifle, Armageddon, Top, ...).
As already stated, Coatl probably won't even see play in Standard and Extended, since it grows to slow.
So, why are you talking about banning Brainstorm and propagate this "omg, magic is dead!!11" feeling?
Yeah, if due to this card Thresh will became too dominant, the first card that will get the axe would probably be Brainstorm, considering that they won't ban a vanilla creature.
I almost see the article right before my eyes now: "because of the predominance of blue, of the presence of fetch that make brainstorm a pseudorecall, the fact that brainstorm is present 4-of in every deck of *****'s top 8, we had to ban it. Ponder will not go, as we wanted to leave an iconic card for library manipulation to blue, and blah blah blah blah. This will also decrease the power of Goyf in control strategies, as you won't always go Brainstorm or Ponder-> Goyf, but you will only be able to Ponder-Goyf, and ponder isn't nearly as strong as Brainstorm in a format with fetches, blah blah blah. Also Brainstorm was a 4-of in every deck playing blue, encouraged control and combo strategy more than aggro ones, we want more creature to be played in legacy blah blah blah" :/
Wooow ! 2007 flashback ! I can't believe the same discussion is still going up.
How f* obvious does it have to be that Flash was the problem for the last people to finally get that it was the problem ?? How many times will the arguments of "Flash can abuse an order of magnitude more cards (ANY possible effect for only 2 mana as long as the said effect has been printed once on the thousands of critters with cip effects) than Hulk does (cards that... put a critter into play for an investement small enough that it would be playable, ie probably not much than 3 mana... how many are there ? yeah, zero)" need to be rehashed ?
OMG.
Yeah, Flash was the constraining mechanism on WotC's ability to design cards in the future since you'd have had to worry about every "goes to graveyard" effect and how it interacted with Flash.
Requiring you to run a two card combo where both cards are useless outside of the combo.... I can't think of ANY CIPT abilities or LP abilities that would be remotely worth that. And regardless, there's Show and Tell for 2U, so players can already abuse broken CIPT abilities if any exist. If Hulk didn't exist, nobody would have batted an eye at Flash (maybe it'd be some jank tier 3 deck). Wizards would just have to be careful not to print: XXXXXXX, when it leaves play, you win the game.
Flash Rector doesn't win the game even. But I guess that limits R&Ds options. They also can't print: Enchantment: You win the game.
Flash is definitely within the power level of the never-played Show and Tell. I can't believe people are still running around thinking that Flash would be busted sideways without a piece to combo into. It's like asking if Animate Dead would be broken without Worldgorger Dragon and how it's destroying Wizards R&D because they can't print: "XXXXXXX: You win the game" on a creature. It wouldn't be a constrain at all.
But anyway, the people not following how good Coatl is seem to be under the expectation that it's just Brainstorm and Coatl, and that it won't change anything. That argument would make sense if Threshold didn't exist as a deck and if no decks already ran Brainstorm, Ponder, SDT, and green.
The problem is that Threshold exists and is already owning the format up in spite of being victimized by graveyard hate and the fact that everyone knows Thresh exists and is on top and everyone is prepared in some capacity for it.
I can't remember the last time a card was printed that helped out the already best deck in Legacy (or at the very least, a deck close to the top), especially in such a major "Automatic 4-of" role without requiring it to evolve in any way. When looking through the spoiler, I didn't see anything else to get excited about that might curb the rush to Thresh decks.
Coatl is a reasonably balanced card, within the power level of the other creatures already in Legacy, but I'm pretty convinced it's going to make Threshold out of hand as Coatl is going to be in the top 5 creatures of Legacy and there's only one deck that can possibly use it.
I find it frustrating there actually exist people who not only don't think that this card is the death of legacy but think that it's so bad that it might need something extra like shroud, or like costing UG. In fact, people think it's so uneventful that they think the other cards in the set matter, but nothing in the set will do anything remotely close to what this card will do to legacy if it's printed. Apparently, some people recognize that this card is huge, because they think brainstorm might get banned, which would obviously be the death of legacy, the only format you can play where you have efficient ways of avoiding both mana screw and mana flood so more "real games" are played.
If playing an 8/8 (at worst in testing, we proxied this card up on MWS) isn't good enough, then Yugioh is a great game where you get to play creatures with thousands of power. That 8/8 was without the help of any brainstorm, and it was immediately like at least a 6/6 the turn it came down.
What's this deal with Coatl being "only vanilla?" Yes, Coatl is only vanilla, what do you want? The welder ability tacked onto it? How come people don't run the argument in reverse? Welder is only a 1/1. It's because the card is good, even though it's not as broken as you can possibly imagine.
Nobody seems to understand, except Forbiddian, that a lot of decks just became strictly worse than threshold.
Imagine:
Old threshold (with cards that actually had threshold effects.)
"Hm... Nimble mongoose sucks. Oh, isn't there that card for 1UG that's always at least an 8/8? Yes, there is that card. Mystic enforcer is not as good as bob, and I'm already 3 colors anyway. Maybe I'll even ditch swords for snuff out and not run white all together."
Aggro loam:
"Hm, maybe I should splash blue for a beater that I can make as big, if not bigger than terravore. Wait, but there's better ways to make this creature bigger, namely brainstorm, ponder. I already run SDT, or if not, then it definitely should be included, but now I should run counterbalance. I may already run confidant, but if not now I should, but I'm running out of room, so maybe I should cut this inferior engine where I have to pay 1G and cycle lands to draw cards, and just run broken cards instead."
Merfolk:
"Wow, my wake thrasher definitely got outclassed there. Islandwalk is nice, but it doesn';t matter if I'm taking 10 every turn from just one guy. Maybe it'd help if I ran lorescale coatl myself. Well, I might as well run goyf, now too. Also, it sucks to be inconsistent, so I'll run ponder, and top. Woops! Might as well run counterbalance. Well, I don't have enough merfolk anymore, so lets cut these inferior creatures for dark confidant."
Decks are led, in a series of strict or nearly strict improvements to becoming the new threshold. Even if you don't agree that every step was strict improvement, let's take a look at what happens overall. What is the upside/downside to playing the first deck in the list, old threshold, vs this baseruption deck?
old thresh has less powerful creatures.
Everything else is the same.
Okay, aggro loam?
The beaters are the same size, but aggro loam has to run a crappy engine to fuel it, whereas baseruption gets to run things people would already run "in a vacuum" anyway, like ponder, brainstorm, CB, top. Also, baseruption gets to run countermagic, which helps it against one of the few decks, ANT, that is not on the fast track to becoming strictly dominated by baseruption.
Merfolk:
Baseruption has creatures that are at least as good, but it is way more consistent. Even if you want to argue that merfolk has islandwalk/lords or whatever, that's fine. I'll even concede that merfolk creatures might be as good as 1UG for an 8/8 minimum, but that's just because I don't want to argue this point since in testing, merfolk is inconsistent (Which makes sense since it has no brainstorm, ponder, or top.), whereas this deck has all 3.
It seems like baseruption gets lucky every game, but in reality, what can you expect when the deck has such insane searching power? I estimate that if this card is printed, and people act semi-logically, then:
A whole entire assortment of inferior decks will convert to baseruption, perhaps only limited by the cost of the cards in the deck. (It is very expensive.)
ANT/TES/etc., ichorid, goblins, will remain intact, not because they aren't worse than baseruption, but just because they're not obviously strictly worse. (They probably will be worse by win %, though.)
I don't know if brainstorm is getting banned, but if it is, then shouldn't that be a big alarm?
This card is stupid and makes me dislike the format even more. More huge vanilla beaters that you don't even need to work for and they are all played in the same deck. Stupid. Remember when decks actually had to splash and work to get a decent beater in the game? Mystic Enforcer, Dragon, etc. They also had flavor. This is ridiculous.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Reply With Quote