[NCD] Lorescale Coatl

[Artowis]

I really wish people would stop comparing this to Goyf. You play them both. And to the people saying that it's bad, you obviously have not played with or against it.

Because clearly you have the massive mound of data sitting around considering it was only confirmed to exist as-of a week ago. Definitely. Feel free to share.

[majikal]

Because clearly you have the massive mound of data sitting around considering it was only confirmed to exist as-of a week ago. Definitely. Feel free to share.

Yeah, actually, I do. I've been testing it nonstop for the last few days against almost everything. I even did the stupid burn goldfish test and somehow outraced it every single game.

This card singlehandedly makes you win when you should not. I have been in the "it's not so busted" camp up until tonight, but then the testing sessions I played over the last few days and especially this evening have all led me to conclude that something needs to happen to neuter this guy. Whether that means ban something (hopefully not) or print something that makes it suck, I don't particularly care as long as it evens the field a little bit.

Here's my list if you want to give it a crack:

4x Goyf
4x Lorescale Coatl
2x Sower of Temptation
2x Vendilion Clique (and actually not very pleased with these, might make them Shackles)

4x Force of Will
3x Daze
4x Ponder
4x Brainstorm
4x SDT
4x Counterbalance
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Oblivion Ring (considering cutting one for Wipe Away)

4x Flooded Strand
4x Windswept Heath
4x Tundra
4x Tropical Island
2x Island
1x Forest

[troopatroop]

I think playing Noble Hierarch should be mainstay in the U/G/w versions of this deck. Playing him allows you to shave off a few lands, so it's only taking up a few slots. I've been playing 18 and it's been good to me.


4 Lorescale Coatl
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Sower of Temptation

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Sensei’s Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Counterbalance
1 Krosan Grip

4 Tropical island
3 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
2 Island
1 Forest

[Kilz88]

Hey guys, I am not sure if this has been mentioned but I wanted to try and get most out of this guy. I wanted to use all the great draw cards and him, but I came up with an issue: Standstill costs less than this guy. So when it came to getting them both in the same deck, it was awkward. But then it came to me: Aether Vial. This a very rough base for a deck lemme know what you use think I can finish it out with. I am open to suggestions for a 3rd or maybe 4th color and I am looking for another solid creature or two to vial in and make vial worth it. Here is what I got so far:

Creatures
4 Lorescale Coatl
4 Tarmogoyf

Draw
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill

Disruption
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3-4 Sensei's Divining Top
3-4 Counterbalance

Awesomeness
4 Aether Vial

Lands
4 Tropical Island
2-4 Polluted Delta
2-4 Flooded Strand
2-4 Mishra's Factory
3-4 Wasteland
Some Islands


Some of the possible creatures that come to mind are Trinket Mage, Trygon Predator, Meddling Mage if we go white, and Dark Confidant is we go black. Lemme know what you guys suggest.

[zulander]

1. That deck looks aweful, 3/4 aether vials for 8 creatures?

2. This isn't the N&D forum, go there and post your deck list there.

[FoolofaTook]

The list I'm testing:

4x Noble Hierarch
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Lorescale Coatl

4x Sylvan Library
2x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Brainstorm

4x Force of Will
3x Daze
3x Spell Snare
3x Counterbalance

4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Engineered Explosives
2x Krosan Grip

4x Flooded Strand
3x Windswept Heath
4x Tropical Island
3x Tundra
1x Savannah
3x Island
1x Forest

Coatl gets found quickly and comes down early and gets very big very fast.

[majikal]

How has the Library been testing for you? I tried it for a little while yesterday and never found myself needing or wanting it. And when I drew it, I always wished it was something else.

[Volt]

There's some bad N&D type deck lists going on in here right now.

Based on the couple hours of playtesting I've done with the snake, I'd say the comparisons to Countryside Crusher are fair. That means it's a nice, playable card, but nothing to get your knickers in a twist about.

[FoolofaTook]

How has the Library been testing for you? I tried it for a little while yesterday and never found myself needing or wanting it. And when I drew it, I always wished it was something else.

I'm using it to get to everything else.

Turn 1 - Noble Hierarch
Turn 2 - Sylvan Library/ Sensei's Divining Top/Lorescale Coatl

Is what I'm trying to promote. It has some mana consistency issues which probably means 1 less Krosan Grip in the main deck and one more land.

Sylvan Library is feeling very strong at this point because it digs for cards early while allowing me to keep mana open for other uses during my turn and then it doubles as a pumper for Lorescale Coatl which is the ultimate finisher in the deck.

I'm guessing you are playing 4x Sensei's Divining Top and some number of Sylvan Library besides that? I'm finding 4 and 4 to be too much and I'm cutting down the tops as a result.

[Jak]

Why would you cut Tops down when you are running Counterbalance? Seriously, stop making your deck worse to make 4 cards slightly better.

[No_Life_No_Future]

I got 2 of these guys at the pre release and split first and second. One game I had one that was a 9/9.... Also terminate was awesome and any Cascade card was worth playing...

[FoolofaTook]

Why would you cut Tops down when you are running Counterbalance? Seriously, stop making your deck worse to make 4 cards slightly better.

Because CBTop is just one thing that comes out of the deck. Because CB works with Sylvan Library also in a somewhat more passive but still effective way once you know what your opponent is running. But primarily because you can go extreme aggro with the deck with the Sylvan's a fair amount of the time in a way that SDT will never promote.

[majikal]

But primarily because you can go extreme aggro with the deck with the Sylvan's a fair amount of the time in a way that SDT will never promote.

You only get one more counter off the library than you do with the top. That's not very extreme.

[Jak]

Because CBTop is just one thing that comes out of the deck. Because CB works with Sylvan Library also in a somewhat more passive but still effective way once you know what your opponent is running. But primarily because you can go extreme aggro with the deck with the Sylvan's a fair amount of the time in a way that SDT will never promote.

Top is cheaper and doesn't conflict with the 2cc spells already in the deck. This means you won't be playing this until turn 3 which is pretty weak and won't help you go "aggro" until turn 4. You are making your control pieces worse to give your Snake an additional +1/+1.

[FoolofaTook]

You only get one more counter off the library than you do with the top. That's not very extreme.

Turn 1 - Noble Hierarch
Turn 2 - Sylvan Library
Turn 3- Take an extra card or two depending on what's there, Lorescale Coatl
Turn 4 - Hit the opponent for 5.
Turn 5 - Hit the opponent for 8.
Turn 6 - Hit the opponent for 11.

You have mana open every turn after 1 to use Spell Snare or remove a blocker with StP. You have excellent card selection, particularly with fetches after turn 3. And with Brainstorm the numbers above become much larger. That's the baseline, not the upper end.

[majikal]

Turn 1 - Noble Hierarch
Turn 2 - Sylvan Library
Turn 3- Take an extra card or two depending on what's there, Lorescale Coatl
Turn 4 - Hit the opponent for 5.
Turn 5 - Hit the opponent for 8.
Turn 6 - Hit the opponent for 11.

You have mana open every turn after 1 to use Spell Snare or remove a blocker with StP. You have excellent card selection, particularly with fetches after turn 3. And with Brainstorm the numbers above become much larger. That's the baseline, not the upper end.

If you can somehow come up with evidence that this is better than the shell we've already got, then you might sway me to the dark side. But as it stands, this just seems inferior. I would rather cantrip than play Hierarch, and I would much rather dig multiple times per turn at instant speed with Top and Fetchlands than just dig during my draw step. Also Top comes down turn 1, which is actually a big deal.

Top is cheaper and doesn't conflict with the 2cc spells already in the deck. This means you won't be playing this until turn 3 which is pretty weak and won't help you go "aggro" until turn 4. You are making your control pieces worse to give your Snake an additional +1/+1.

This.

[FoolofaTook]

If you can somehow come up with evidence that this is better than the shell we've already got, then you might sway me to the dark side. But as it stands, this just seems inferior. I would rather cantrip than play Hierarch, and I would much rather dig multiple times per turn at instant speed with Top and Fetchlands than just dig during my draw step. Also Top comes down turn 1, which is actually a big deal.


This.

Hierarch wins Goyf wars and provides acceleration. As to the Top vs Sylvan Library argument I have no doubt that in most circumstances the Top is a superior card. In Threshold it certainly is. The list I'm testing above is not Threshold though. It's more of an aggro-control list that is trying to grab the tempo immediately and run with it.

Cantripping, with it's consistent mana requirement, is replaced by a permanent dig device with no mana requirements after the turn it is played. The Sylvans also function with Coatl, both to find it and then to buff it. Ponder is replaced by Noble Hierarch more than anything else. Instead of cantripping to look for land the deck tries to use Hierarch to provide mana consistency and acceleration. The risk that Hierarch will be removed and the deck left with less mana than it would like is real, however that removal cannot then be used on goyf or coatl. Like Sylvan Library the Hierarch has a later game function also, making your beaters bigger.

CounterTop is almost an afterthought after the other 10 counters and 8 removal spells are taken into account. When it lands it's great but the deck does not need it to survive. In that light Sensei's Divining Top has less precedence in the deck than Sylvan Library, although it also functions in a secondary role to pump Lorescale Coatl in a less spectacular fashion than Sylvan Library.

[AngryTroll]

There's some bad N&D type deck lists going on in here right now.

Based on the couple hours of playtesting I've done with the snake, I'd say the comparisons to Countryside Crusher are fair. That means it's a nice, playable card, but nothing to get your knickers in a twist about.

Why would you cut Tops down when you are running Counterbalance? Seriously, stop making your deck worse to make 4 cards slightly better.

Coatl is solid. He'll see play. He won't be the end of Legacy.

How often will you have to choose between Brainstorm and a fetchland on turn two or holding the Brainstorm until turn four? Probably too often. If you're in a meta full of Counterbalances, are you really going to be flipping Top onto your library ever turn? Not unless you absolutely have to. On the other hand, he does slide into Thresh and NLU pretty easily. He'll see play, for sure.

Ichorid may see more play, and Ichorid will still crush Thresh and NLU.


Please, please, please don't run 4 Sylvan Library and 2 Tops. If you run Libraries at all, it should probably be 4 Top, 2 Library.

[majikal]

How often will you have to choose between Brainstorm and a fetchland on turn two or holding the Brainstorm until turn four? Probably too often. If you're in a meta full of Counterbalances, are you really going to be flipping Top onto your library ever turn? Not unless you absolutely have to.

You don't ever really need to do it unless you want to run over an obstacle. And even then just the one turn is usually enough.

Please, please, please don't run 4 Sylvan Library and 2 Tops. If you run Libraries at all, it should probably be 4 Top, 2 Library.

Even 2 is too many.

[eq.firemind]

Coatl + Loam engine + Cephalid Coliseum = nice sinergy. And you will run Brainstorm anyway because you run . You can also blow up Pernicious Deed/EE to kill their Goyf/CB/Jitte/other stuff and bash 'em with the snake. Some kind of Loam+ITF?

Another good thing is Coatl+Standstill+Aether Vial in Fish-like deck. Need some changes in creature base to abuse Vial 3, but as a result you'll have better curve for Counterbalance.