[Deck] Merfolk

[Phoenix Ignition]

I thought you were dead, dude. No more comments on here, i was like " where's Phoenix Ignition flaming everyone?". Well, good to see ya still here.

I've seen too many stupid comments. I actually start to ignore them now mostly. Mana Vortex and Saprazzan Heir?

"I don't play fetches in this deck because of that 1-2 lives that save me, since i often end games at 1-2 lives.." AHH Dude, so i see that you changed your mind and are going to play NOT only fetches, but EVEN brainstorm !!
What do you mean when you say " the meta as shifted so this is the new version"? Because, although i feel that effectively something new has appeared starting to dominate legacy (read:Nassifesque lists and the new Bant), i still felt the the old, good, evergreen "traditional" 'Folks list was enough. I mean, since the meta is shifting towards a slower approach of the type " Counterbalance plus Fatties", i thought that we, with our diruption and, most of alll, the insane advantage given by Lord of Atlanntis, could exploit these features in our favor.

I explained a bit on this. The advantage from running no fetches seemed to be diminishing. Just like dragon stompy had it's surprise factor and beat people shitless, it barely shows now. Aside from at GPC top 8. Racing isn't the factor anymore, now it's more focused on control. Most of all, CB has become even more common. People kill our vials with Trygon or K grip main deck, so there's no way to cheat in a 2cc for the win. Or he'll get sworded. Still running everything from that era, this deck gets all the chances it used to have, with a nice 3cc tempo swing that usually ends the game.

However, I don't wanna talk about this, let's see your list.
It seems like an odd twist, but it really looks good. One question though: are you really sure of Selkie Mage and Mirrorweave? I mean, Selkie ,apart from the fact that in this monocolor build isn't optimized, seems kinda slow combined with reejereys and weaves.

One point at a time. If you'll notice, the cards I switched out were Stifle, Relic, 1 Standstill, and 2 Wakethrashers from my old list. These changes do tend to make the deck just a bit slower, but really Stifle was the only thing that I took out... which a lot of people have been taking out anyway. In the old list I still love stifle in that slot, but in this list I wanted to use Selkie + Tidal Warrior.

Now, you have about 7 drops @3 and 2 drops @4 to be hardcast. Not sure if merfolk can afford this "slow,esponential growing " towards your finisher, Mirrorweave. Btw, seeing that you want to optimize Selkie with the Riptide (even if is a 1-of), i'm really wondering if this doesn't request too much time to get the right way.

That's just 1 more 3cc than before. Granted Selkie isn't the merfolk pile driver, but he helps get rid of crap thats in the way (or charged Kootles).

Maybe it's me who's used to play an aggressive, fast, disrupting version of the 'Folks..
And the real point which makes me doubtful is that , with Mirroweave, you're likely most of the times to copy 1 of the lord, especially Lord of atlantis, for a lethal swing. That's ok, but did it never happen that someone, understanding your intentions, stp'ed/bolted/removed your lords in reponse, making the "finisher" way less strong, or in a certain sense, fizzle? i mean, it costs 4, so it's kinda slow. Apart from the fact of being esposed to opposing daze as hell, seems to be pretty easy to prevent, while an EOT vialed thrasher under standstill could have been teh nutzzz.

I agree with the Thrasher comment, I love the guy. But in this list I went for Tidal Warrior to keep the opponent off of forests early. Then I use Selkie for stupid tempo swings in our favor (Tombstalkers biggest enemy). I like Mirrorweave as a finisher because no one saves counters for it. We have too many must counter threats against decks that have counterspells. If they do counter Mirrorweave it usually isn't game over either, since you swing after it resolves. Also, in response to the StP comment, LoA is sworded on sight, they usually don't wait around for a Mirrorweave (I mean... who the hell even expects it). But if they have a mit full of cards, the opposing Goyf is always a great Mirrorweave target. Even with 4 guys out, Mirrorweaving something as dumb as a Trygon Predator is hilariously good.

Also, i understand the logic of dropping to 3 standstills because of brainstorm, and therefore, playing mutavault as 2-ofs, but don't you risk to weaken a lot what has been designed to be the strongest sinergy for early-game control (standstill+vial+mutavault), this way? Without standstill, vial is less broken, that's for sure, and the quantities of the aforementioned cards you use make standstill way less asymmetrical.

The probability of seeing a Standstill in your first 7 cards when you have 4 of them in the deck is actually similar to seeing a Standstill in your first 10 cards when you have 3 Standstills.

The probability of hitting Standstill before turn 2 if you go first:

4 Standstills in the deck: 39.95%
3 Standstills and 4 BS in the deck: 35.135%

The 4.8% is significant, but Brainstorm overall helps I think.

As for taking out a Mutavault for the Riptide, I'm not set on it. I think the extra Tidal Warriors make up for the loss of 1 Mutavault. We'll see with more testing though.

I don't want to deny the fact that Mirroweave is a great finisher (having 5 lord of atlantis on the table isn't that shit, i suppose :-D), nor the great sinergy between brainstorm and fetches to thin hand and deck. But i'm not convinced 'bout Selkie, really, especially the "tapped" issue, since the opponent is not alwyas going to swing with his lonely goyf if he sees some dudes of yours on the board and understands you're going to backfire lots of damage helped by a lord, so he keeps his fatties as walls to stall the game.

If they hold back creatures your mirrorweave on LoA is much better. Also, like you say, Reejery + Selkie = bounce.

[AcidFiend]

Well done, Sir.
"AS Painter's Servant comes into play,..."
Sure you can do that?

Ok as a few of you have pointed out, I fail at playing Stifle. I was actually changing my mind about this card, but if it can't stop CIP abilities, I'll go back to not using it lol.

[Shawon]

Selkie Hedge-Mage seems suboptimal in Merfolk, mainly because of its CC. Both Reejerey and Wake Thrasher are powerful 3cc threats, Hedge-Mage is a 3cc answer, and a situational answer (having two Islands and targets a TAPPED creature). It's slow, and situational. That's bad removal, even with Riptide Laboratory in your deck and Reejerey to 'enable' Hedge-Mage.

If you want a Merfolk+bouncer, Waterfront Bouncer (ha!) is way better, methinks. It comes down faster and it's reusable.

Ok as a few of you have pointed out, I fail at playing Stifle. I was actually changing my mind about this card, but if it can't stop CIP abilities, I'll go back to not using it lol.

You can Stifle CIP abilities, just ones that start with "When *** comes into play", not "As *** comes into play."

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

I've seen too many stupid comments. I actually start to ignore them now mostly. Mana Vortex and Saprazzan Heir?

If you'll notice, the cards I switched out were Stifle, Relic, 1 Standstill, and 2 Wakethrashers from my old list. These changes do tend to make the deck just a bit slower, but really Stifle was the only thing that I took out... which a lot of people have been taking out anyway.

I pretty much admitted at the time I made the suggestion that Mana Vortex was most likely never going to pan out... Just thought it might have been interesting food for thought.

And I'm glad to see that you've gotten over your "must include Stifle" stigma. Don't get me wrong, it's a great card, but I don't really think it's a "must have" anymore... Anyhow, just wanted to insert a little "told you so".

[Phoenix Ignition]

Selkie Hedge-Mage seems suboptimal in Merfolk, mainly because of its CC. Both Reejerey and Wake Thrasher are powerful 3cc threats, Hedge-Mage is a 3cc answer, and a situational answer (having two Islands and targets a TAPPED creature). It's slow, and situational. That's bad removal, even with Riptide Laboratory in your deck and Reejerey to 'enable' Hedge-Mage.

If you want a Merfolk+bouncer, Waterfront Bouncer (ha!) is way better, methinks. It comes down faster and it's reusable.

You're mistaking his use. The original merfolk list has no answer to creatures. Hedge-Mage is a very marginal answer to creatures, but a free merfolk creature with bounce. The "bad removal" is firstly, better than the "no removal" previous lists have (especially with the rise of goyf, coooatle, and tombstalker). I see the 3cc as a benefit because it gets around CB. It makes racing with merfolk always end up in your favor.

Needing two islands isn't as much of a problem when playing Brainstorm + fetch to hit them. Also, tidal warrior.

As for Wakethrasher, you can certainly take out Mirrorweave, I'm mainly just trying it out. It's an amazing "Oops I win" card when mixed with the extra bodies of selkies and tidal warrior.

[AcidFiend]

You can Stifle CIP abilities, just ones that start with "When *** comes into play", not "As *** comes into play."

Ahh, thanks for clearing that up

[Nekrataal]

I explained a bit on this. The advantage from running no fetches seemed to be diminishing. Just like dragon stompy had it's surprise factor and beat people shitless, it barely shows now. Aside from at GPC top 8. Racing isn't the factor anymore, now it's more focused on control. Most of all, CB has become even more common. People kill our vials with Trygon or K grip main deck, so there's no way to cheat in a 2cc for the win. Or he'll get sworded. Still running everything from that era, this deck gets all the chances it used to have, with a nice 3cc tempo swing that usually ends the game.

What is true is that running fetchies has become much saver lately. Imho this also triggered the decision or was at least part of the decision not to play Stifle anymore for LD because ppl learned to be cautious and played around it. So the fetchlands/brainstorm actions just makes sense to me and maybe I will try my "with Dreadnoughts" build again because it gets way better then. The rise of NLU / Baseruption indeed has its disadvantages (although I think it is still one of the better matchups). The greatest threat apart from CB is Predator because he destroys all our beloved artifacts (Jitte, Relics, Vials, Needles) so my latest build featured Vendilion Clique though I was never totally convinced by mixing Faes with Folks. Apart from the tricks with Riptide Laboratory in your build which may happen randomly Selkie seems not overwhelming and as you say it is still the strongest choice you have with folks (maybe the Waterfront guy discussion no comes up) but I do not like it. It is slow, costly and situational as has been stated. Mirrorweave maybe is a nice surprise card as long as it is not "standardized". Once it is everybody will be prepared so it will be less effective then. It is also situational because it requires you to at least have enough guys of your own out to have an effect that is worth 4cc. Against problematic matchups with B or R in the deckname this probably isnt going to happen so it seems to me that it is a winmore card for already better matchups (though I still like it because I would really like to see the face of the dude you're going to attack with 4 Goyfs or 4 Dreadnoughts, funny, haha). I am on a line with you that even Relics are not enough in today's meta but Mirrorweave seems to be an odd mitigation.

Your bottom line seems to be that the metagame in your opinion is slowing and therefore a slightly less agressive build with more abilities to handle the board is the right approach. I wont deny nor confirm that but a question comes to my mind: If you are already playing Fetchlands and Brainstorm and you say that this is ok due to less non-basic fuckwhatsoever, isnt it time for little Splash? This opens the way for much better solutions like Selkie and Mirroweave regarding board control. There is g or w to choose from which seem the most natural splashes.

[Shawon]

You're mistaking his use. The original merfolk list has no answer to creatures. Hedge-Mage is a very marginal answer to creatures, but a free merfolk creature with bounce. The "bad removal" is firstly, better than the "no removal" previous lists have (especially with the rise of goyf, coooatle, and tombstalker). I see the 3cc as a benefit because it gets around CB. It makes racing with merfolk always end up in your favor.

Needing two islands isn't as much of a problem when playing Brainstorm + fetch to hit them. Also, tidal warrior.

As for Wakethrasher, you can certainly take out Mirrorweave, I'm mainly just trying it out. It's an amazing "Oops I win" card when mixed with the extra bodies of selkies and tidal warrior.

HMage isn't a free Merfolk though. It's always going to cost 3 mana to cast and 3 counters on Vial to flash it in. I don't get your statement that it's a "free Merfolk with bounce."

You neglected to address the other situational limitation of HMage, which is the target-tapped-creature part. Like I said before, that makes HMage very situational. Doesn't matter if you have Reejerey to set up Hedge Mage, actually that makes it more convincing that Hedge Mage is awful, because you need another card (a specific one, at that) to make it effective.

Yeah, "bad removal" is better than "no removal," but you know, we also have "better removal," namely Waterfront Bouncer. It doesn't need two Islands, and the target creature doesn't need to be tapped (that means that you also have another target for Reej's ability, very relevant when the deck is in situations where you need to win in one alpha strike).

[Phoenix Ignition]

You neglected to address the other situational limitation of HMage, which is the target-tapped-creature part.

Sure I did, read my posts...

Yeah, "bad removal" is better than "no removal," but you know, we also have "better removal," namely Waterfront Bouncer. It doesn't need two Islands, and the target creature doesn't need to be tapped (that means that you also have another target for Reej's ability, very relevant when the deck is in situations where you need to win in one alpha strike).

Do you actually play with WB? Our 2 drop slot is full so you aren't going to actually play him in enough time to use him when selkie would have worked. And the point of selkie isn't a permanent lock, it's a way to slow down the opponent a lot while dropping another body. WB is such a waste of cards as well... sure it's okay if you are late game tossing islands or vials, but early game it is pretty bad. I've tried out every possible merfolk in this deck, don't suggest stuff under the false assumption that I haven't.

Do you actually play WB? I really doubt it because he's slow and eats StP before his ability goes off even once. And he can't swing and use his ability, selkie's ability goes off for free when you play her.

[Shawon]

Sure I did, read my posts...

I meant in your last post, the one in response to mine. Furthermore, you really didn't. Selkie can only bounce tapped creatures. How is that NOT bad? Wasting Reej's ability to enable Selkie is not enough backup.

Before I defend WB, I'm just going to say this: Man o War is better than Selkie Hedge Mage. And I'm not suggesting the deck run Man o War. I hope you can put two and two together.

Do you actually play with WB? ... Do you actually play WB?

Funny you ask. IIRC, earlier in this thread, I advocated using Waterfront Bouncer, and I got flamed by someone for even thinking of using him, I think the guy's name was Phoenix Ignition. Of course, that was all in the past - and it has nothing to do with our current discussion - but I was just a little amused you asked if I played with WB. Thanks for asking me twice, by the way, I wouldn't have remembered otherwise.

Our 2 drop slot is full so you aren't going to actually play him in enough time to use him when selkie would have worked.

What does this mean? WB is cheaper than Selkie. Once WB is no longer sick, you just need U to use his ability. How does that take up too much time?

And the point of selkie isn't a permanent lock, it's a way to slow down the opponent a lot while dropping another body. WB is such a waste of cards as well... sure it's okay if you are late game tossing islands or vials, but early game it is pretty bad. I've tried out every possible merfolk in this deck, don't suggest stuff under the false assumption that I haven't.

I never suggested anything about Merfolk needing a permanent lock. I was just stating that WB is reusable as an incentive to run it over Selkie (but I don't think I needed to because I already explained why Selkie sucks).

By the way, who's making false assumptions? No need to be defensive. Save it for when I actually claim or imply you haven't tested WB.

I really doubt it because he's slow and eats StP before his ability goes off even once. And he can't swing and use his ability, selkie's ability goes off for free when you play her.

So? Wake Thrasher can get STP'd or Fanatic'd before you attack with him once. People still run him.

Yeah, WB taps itself, but it's worth it because of the benefits of removing blockers regardless of whether they're tapped or not, very relevant for alpha strikes, when the deck wants to finish the opp off in one turn. Also, if you bouince their only creature EOT, you can attack with Bouncer the next turn. If Bouncer's ability was sorcery-speed, then it would suck royally. It's not, hence it's decent.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Ok, speaking of the fabled "White splash", check out this noise:

Uw Merfolk:
(or as I call it...) "Eat Lots of Fish and Don't Trust Whitey"

4 Flooded Strand
1 Minamo, School at Water's Edge
3 Wasteland
3 Mutavault
4 Tundra
5 Island

4 Aether Vial
4 Standstill
4 Daze
4 Force
4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill
4 Lord
2 Sygg, River Guide
4 Reejerey
2 Wake Thrasher

SIDEBOARD:
3 Pithing Needle
3 Divert
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Echoing Truth
3 Seal of Cleansing

***So far, my testing has shown this to be pretty good, although I've only been trying out the list since this afternoon, lol. I tried a couple games with Mirror Entity, but it just seemed to me that he wasn't cracking into action, so I'm trying Sygg... He may become Tidal Warrior or additional Wake Thrasher...

Anyways, does this look about right to y'all? Is there anything amazing that White brings to the sideboard that I'm missing? I figured basically all I needed from my splash was removal for creatures, artifacts, and enchantments... But I may be missing something here.

Also, does anyone see some available room to squeeze in a few Brainstorms? I couldn't imagine that they wouldn't help if I could find space.

Anyhow, feedback, please...

[AcidFiend]

Duke:

If you wanted Brainstorms, you can probably drop the following:

-2 Sygg
-1 Daze
-1 Standstill

With Brainstorms as another poster pointed out, you don't actually need 4 Standstill. Then again I don't really like lists that go light on guys so.. *shrug*

[omgkitties]

Sooo...I've been playing around with this deck, and I just recently cut the Vendilion Cliques, so now I have a slot and I was wondering what you guys think I could put in there, because honestly I am having some trouble.

Here is the list
12x Island
4x Wasteland
4x Mutavault

4x FoW
4x Daze

2x Jitte
2x Relic
4x Vial

4x LoA
4x Reejerey
3x Wake Thrasher
4x Silvergill Adept
4x Cursecatcher

4x Standstill

SB
2x Shackles
2x Relic
2x Crypt
2x Echoing Truth
1x Wipe Away
2x Chill
3x BEB
1x Hydroblast

So there you have it. I have 1 slot currently, more if I cut some random cards...Cursecatcher doesn't really do it for me, but who knows. I was thinking something like Cold-Eyed Selkie, Kira, Waterfront Bouncer?, Tidal Warrior (ick?) or maybe something else. I need your help!

[freakish777]

Has anyone considered Selkie-Hedgemage? I mean she's a Man-O-War that's also a merfolk, this deck is all about tempo right? Nothing like bouncing an opponent's Goyf/Dreadnought/Tombstalker and getting in for another turn.

[Shawon]

Man o War is better than Selkie.

[Jak]

Man o War is better than Selkie.

Man o War isn't a merfolk. I really like the idea of Selkie. I'll give it a shot as a 3-4 of.

[Shawon]

Selkie only bounces tapped creatures. Man o War bounces any creature. Selkie is situational, Man o War is not. Instant removal is better than either, anyhow.

[freakish777]

Selkie only bounces tapped creatures. Man o War bounces any creature.

My bad, I didn't see that Selkie only hits tapped guys, otherwise I'd argue that the conditional part of it is worth playing with since it will basically always be met.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Has anyone considered Selkie-Hedgemage? I mean she's a Man-O-War that's also a merfolk, this deck is all about tempo right? Nothing like bouncing an opponent's Goyf/Dreadnought/Tombstalker and getting in for another turn.

You must have missed the last page of discussion on her.

I like her as a 3 of, I'm using her instead of Stifle. Yes she is situational, but the situation arises very frequently. Eating 1 swing is rarely a problem in Merfolk as we build so much tempo early. Stalling another attack for 2 turns is usually worth not getting to bounce the creature before it attacks.

Also, the value of bouncing creatures goes up significantly with Coatl.

Man O War isn't a merfolk, or would definitely go in the slot, but at least selkie is a 2/2.

[Master Shake]

I like that this deck is currently in the casual section.

Happy Cavius the Great Day.