Phoenix, good sir, for once you and I are in complete and total agreement. I completely cracked up when I read the post and your response.Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition
I love how you say it's going downhill because of the change in cards to fit the metagame.
And I really love how well you must know the deck to make those statements. And then suggest Counterbalance top!
you just made my day sir!
@Nameless One:
Just to further dignify the horrible Counter/Top suggestion with a response (since folks are kind enough to do so for me when I have the occasional horrible idea)... The problem with Counter/Top in this deck, basically, is that it just takes up too many slots. To effectively run it as a disruption engine, you need to be sure that you will be able to set up the lock during the first few turns of the game, or else it loses its potential to control the game. As Picelli mentions, to do this you would need to also include Brainstorm and fetch-lands.
The whole idea of the Merfolk deck is to disrupt the opponent enough to deal twenty damage to them, and to speed up our clock with the exponential damage boost that using "Lord" creatures gives us. To this effect, the deck needs to play at least 18 creatures, and I find that a number more in the range of 20 works best for me. Quite simply, between our disruption suite (which is pretty much the best thing available to the deck and thus non-negotiable) and our creature package, and our Aether Vial/Standstill shenannigans, Counter/Top is 10-12 slots in the deck that are just not fucking open. Any deck that uses Counter/Top effectively usually does so while maintaining a much lower threat density than Merfolk, and using more search cards, like Brainstorm and Ponder, than we can really hope to squeeze in.
*Having said all that, if you really want to run the Counter/Top package (in this deck that is), here's my suggestion to you: Go for it. Let your results speak for themselves though, before you tell people who play this deck on a serious level that they don't know what they're doing, when your opinions on the subject are clearly somewhat naive. And be aware that to find the space for an effective Counter/Top package, you're going to have to end up cutting some of the cards which this deck holds near and dear. I mean, seriously, you say you prefer the oldschool version of this deck, but your suggestion would require this deck to pretty much completely gut out the engine it uses and replace it with a new one.
Moving on to the White Splash topic:
Ok, this list has been performing too well so far for me not to post it. It's pretty similar to the one I posted a couple days ago, but I think the tweaks have really helped, from what I can see:
UW Merfolk:
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
3 Mutavault
3 Wasteland
6 Island
4 Cursecat
4 Adept
4 Lord
4 Reejerey
3 Wake Thrasher
4 Vial
4 Standstill
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Echoing Truth
3 Swords to Plowshares (I'm kind of thinking of trying Path to Exile to see if the sky falls down on me for running it with Wasteland... may be a crazy idea though)
SIDEBOARD
1 Swords to Plowshares
3 Pithing Needle
3 Hydroblast
3 Seal of Cleansing
3 Jotun Grunt
2 Propaganda
***So, basically the number one thing that convinces me this list is good is that I just won a really long, drawn out Game Two versus Goblins. The awesome thing about the game was I literally kept him on the defensive the whole time... He did three damage to me over the course of the game, although I had to fight hard to get past his defenses (and his fucking Vexing Shusher)... The fact that this deck can take out Merfolk's old nemesis, Goblins, has me pretty stoked about the White splash.
I would recommend testing with this list to see how y'all like it. Personally, I'm digging it well enough that I'm actually contemplating dropping the huge chunk of change that it would entail for me to get three Tundra, four Flooded Strand.
I'm finding the White splash to be very strong because of the board control it brings, and particularly I'm finding Jotun Grunt to be some nice secret tech for the sideboard.
As far as the sideboard goes, Propaganda is the only card that's been consistently underperforming so far... It may be that to run it effectively it really needs to be three-of in the sideboard, but my hunch is that the extra removal makes Propaganda unnecessary... Does anyone have any suggestions for what to run instead? I could see just bumping in the fourth copy of Echoing Truth and maybe either the fourth Hydroblast or Seal of Cleansing... But I'm wondering if anyone has any hot tech for my two free slots.
Last edited by DukeDemonKn1ght; 05-01-2009 at 06:43 PM.
Bless your heart, we must consider Blue/White Tempo's strategy and win percentages in an entirely different deck thread. -4eak
Its going down with CounterTop for sure.
Duke, Ive nothing to add. This deck is pretty much what I would play with only W splash. Some SB choices are always metagame dependant so go ahead and analyse ;) Personally I would probably test CoP:or Warmth to ramp up the GoyfSligh matchups.
So after reading the Premium article on SCG, Threads of Disloyalty seemed interesting, so naturally I went into the Bat Cave with some friends and tested for 12 hours [no class]. Threads does so much for our sore match-ups its not even funny. Stealing Goyfs, Kird Apes, Bobs, among others.
It seems like the new hot tech?
I'm confused as to how 4 StP shored up a horrible match-up...
Maybe I'm missing something but it seems super easy for them to keep us off of White with their annoying Wastelands.
Without stifles they have absolutely nothing to say about fetch lands. That's one of the most annoying things that the old merfolk list could do... ensure that you don't keep your mana splash dual land, and that you can't even fetch for it. Goblins can't say anything to a fetch land.
Threads does seem like an interesting card instead of Stifle, but I wonder how much more effective it really was. Against decks like threshold you'll notice it's effect right away, and in powerful ways. Stealing a big goyf and swinging in for the win with Merfolk may make it seem like an amazing card, but really that stifle keeping them off enough land to match tempo with you could have done more.
I'm not going to in any way say that it's bad inclusion or that the article is skewing the data, but in my experience the best way to win against rock decks (like he did in the article) is to just keep them off enough land to make their disruption work. Making sure the most mana they have is 3 means they have to waste 2 turns playing deeds, which is almost always enough (especially in decks that run Stifle or Echoing Truth).
I'm not entirely convinced that this is the best move since many creatures cost 3 or more now, but it does seem like an awesome way to deal with goyf sligh. I'd like to note though that it really doesn't help our burn or goblin matchup noticably, and any card that just helps our threshold matchup should be looked at in depth since we already have a good matchup to thresh (who doesn't, amirite?).
Well, the thing is, it wasn't really just Swords that won the match... Against Goblins, my list has access to 4 StP, 3 Hydroblast, 3 Echoing Truth, and 3 Jotun Grunt... Which is waaay better than the maybe three or four effective cards that traditional mono-blue lists sideboard in for the matchup, lol. The game I tested showed Grunt to be an excellent card vs. Goblins, because it quickly boiled down to an attrition war, keeping the graveyards nice and full for Grunt to feed off. His ability to block a Piledriver is also pretty huge, as well as the fact that he trades favorably with just about every creature that Goblins uses...
As far as Threads of Disloyalty, I've always felt that it's just too situational. Granted, it steals most things that we would want it to, but not nearly all of them... I still think that the best option in creature-theft available to us is Sower of Temptation, provided we can become more consistent in getting ourselves up to four lands in order to play that mana-hungry s.o.b...
But perhaps Threads deserves a second look. For those of us without a SCG premium account, could you enlighten us as to the basic arguments the article gave for including Threads, please?
Bless your heart, we must consider Blue/White Tempo's strategy and win percentages in an entirely different deck thread. -4eak
DukeDemonKnight: Here are the highlights regarding Threads from the article ->
[quote Marijn Lybaert]
vs Goyf Sligh:
Game 1 I won on the back of my maindeck Threads of Disloyalty.
vs BGW Rock with Recurring Nightmare:
Threads of Disloyalty and Standstill were definitely the MVP’s in this matchup.
vs ANT
During this match I found out that I had literally zero sideboard cards against this deck, and I was running 3 completely useless Threads maindeck.
3 Threads of Disloyalty: As I said earlier, most Merfolk lists don’t run these maindeck, but I was surprised by the power of them when playing with my Threshold deck against Merfolk. Suddenly, the Threshold deck didn’t have 8 ways to win. It only had 4 (Nimble Mongoose), as Tarmogoyf joined the enemy 50% of the time.
I’m still unsure about the Brainstorms, but I think it’s better to keep them as with two Threads and two Jitte you risk drawing the wrong cards in the wrong matchup. Goes on to say that Brainstorm + Fetch means you can shuffle away Threads/Jitte where not required.
[/quote Marijn Lybaert]
I tend to agree that Threads would be huge against Threshold, but that matchup is already fairly favourable. However, lets look at the last two Top 8's on SGG and which Threads targets there are:
CounterTop Goyf (4 Tarmogoyf, 4 Dark Confidant)
CounterTop Goyf (4 Tarmogoyf)
The Rock (2 Dark Confidant, 4 Nantuko Shade, 4 Tarmogoyf)
Dragon Stompy (none)
The Rock (4 Dark Confidant, 4 Mesmeric Fiend, 4 Tarmogoyf)
ANT (none)
Threshold (4 Tarmogoyf)
Naya Burn (3 Grim Lavamancer, 4 Kird Ape, 4 Tarmogoyf, 4 Wild Nacatl)
Survival (4 Tarmogoyf)
Threshold (4 Tarmogoyf, 3 Werebear)
Threshold (4 Tarmogoyf, 3 Werebear)
Dredge (4 Putrid Imp)
CounterTop Goyf (4 Dark Confidant, 4 Tarmogoyf)
Goblins (4 Goblin Lackey)
CounterTop Thresh (4 Tarmogoyf, 3 Werebear)
CounterTop Goyf (4 Tarmogoyf)
14/16 decks ran 4 Goyf - wow.
At this point I'm more inclined to include Threads maindeck over Jitte (if forced to choose). Drawing multiple Threads is good, while multiple Jittes are often dead, and more people are running Goyf than running Burn/Sligh which is where Jitte really shines (altho granted Jitte can help you win combat attrition wars).
This is all speculation though, we really need someone to do extensive testing vs. CounterTop Goyf and Threshold, with and without Threads and report back. *trots off to local card store*
Last edited by AcidFiend; 05-03-2009 at 10:59 AM.
Ok, after taking a look at Lybaert's list, I really need some explanation: WTF is up with the 4 Chalices in his sideboard? Is this just for Combo-hate or something? I'm having a hard time seeing how Chalice would be useful in a deck like his, that plays 12 one-drops... I mean, is it just in the sideboard to be played at zero or something???
Obviously, he's a good player, he knows what he's doing I'm sure... But exactly which matchups would Chalice of the Void improve??
Bless your heart, we must consider Blue/White Tempo's strategy and win percentages in an entirely different deck thread. -4eak
He never explained at all, however given he stated he previously had no sideboard for combo, then added 4 Chalice, yes I believe its for Combo to be set @ zero.
I have a hard time believing that Chalice at zero is the best thing this deck can do as a sideboard slot against combo... But maybe I'm under-rating it in that match-up, I don't know... I mean, shit, is that really all we have?
Bless your heart, we must consider Blue/White Tempo's strategy and win percentages in an entirely different deck thread. -4eak
Chalice e.g. improves the Goyfsligh/Burn matchup, although they will be prepared the next game. However it stops Kird Ape, Nactal, Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning, Lavamancer just to mentioned the most important one that come to my mind. Probably he thinks that it is worth loosing Vial or Cursecather because they do not matter much in that matchup. But this is just a guess. In a splash version with Brainstorm this is unthinkable.Ok, after taking a look at Lybaert's list, I really need some explanation: WTF is up with the 4 Chalices in his sideboard? Is this just for Combo-hate or something? I'm having a hard time seeing how Chalice would be useful in a deck like his, that plays 12 one-drops... I mean, is it just in the sideboard to be played at zero or something???
Obviously, he's a good player, he knows what he's doing I'm sure... But exactly which matchups would Chalice of the Void improve??
From my testing so far with the Uwg version I have to say that the colours are not a problem. Always mana to play a Goyf and mostly white for a Sword. Actually playing Goyf via Vial is quite common. Only pain is PoP which easily hits for 6+ if not countered. I did about 4 testgames against Landstill and Goyfsligh. Against Landstill Goyf was quite amazing drawing removal to provide a clear path for Lord of Atlantis and his gang. Swords were not very relevant in this matchup and I boarded them. Against GoyfSligh I didn't feel much of an improvement. All of the folks except Goyf are weak on their own and that's what they are against burn: dead. CoP:Red didn't help too much without guys you are pretty much dead sometimes. Absolute Law would have been better in that particular matchup. Goyfs could hold their ground for 1-2 rounds but not for long. Swords were good to keep opposing Goyfs or Lavamancers off the table but still didnt turn the game unless seen in multiples. But in the end I could have used a bit more luck to still win more than 1 game out of 4. My sideboard didn't feature Propaganda and this I am gonna try next.
19 Lands
4 Flooded Strand
3 Wasteland
3 Mutavault
4 Tundra
3 Island
2 Tropical Islands
21 Other spells:
4 Aether Vial
3 Standstill
3 Daze
4 Force
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
20 Creatures:
4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill
4 Lord
4 Reejerey
4 Tarmogoyf
SIDEBOARD:
1 Jitte
2 Relics (not sure I still need these but maybe Grunts are too slow)
2 Trygon Predator
3 Krosan Grip
3 Jötun Grunt
2 Echoing Truth
2 Propanganda
If you're going for a UGW Merfolk with Tarmogoyf, is Silvergill Adept even good in the deck anymore? Not that Adept is bad, but can you reliably cast it in a deck like that?
Well previously some tested Thorn Of Amethyst as the only Combo sideboard card. I know I did, and it was underwhelming, they still combo'd out.
Chalice will cut them off from Chrome Mox, Lion's Eye Diamond and Lotus Petal completely. Again I plan to test it myself, but it may buy you a couple of turns to draw into additional counters.
I agree - Silvergill occasionally gets stuck in my hand playing the Blue version, I don't see how it couldn't be even worse splashing WG.
So far I could. I usually leave Vial at 2 and only move it up to three if really necessary. Especially with Goyf in the deck there has to be very good reason because Rejeerey is the only 3 drop. So yes, I know the problem it gets stuck in your hand but in the 8 matches I had so far it didn't happen.
Actually I am thinking about Rushing River again. Before I didnt play it because of it crowding the 3cc slot. But now, as the curve is lowered it might be valuable for 2 reasons. 1: It clears the way for Goyf and might also save some guys you can vial in straight away. 2: I felt that sometimes there is far to much color on the board then needed. So either I do not play additional Duals or they go for the Kicker effect. This experience is based on just the 2 matchups I had so maybe a little narrow. In both matchups Landdestruction on my Manabase were not an issue. Goyfsligh naturally has no LD and Landstill has to concentrate to stay alaive and deal with the mana disruption from Merfolk before thinking about using its own Wastelands.
@Nekrataal
Hmm, I've got a $1000000 question. Here it comes! - Name 3 reasons to play Uwg Merfolk over Thresh/Bant.
No srsly man, this idea gets me a little frustrated. And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying your list looks bad or anything. In fact, if you say that it's been doing better for you then I'll have some serious doubts about the whole sense of running Merf deck.
Why isn't my avatar working?
1. It gives you more "must counter" guys against blue lists, whereas before they needed to just counter LoA and Reejery (since low creature density means Reejery wins the war of racing). Adding Goyf evens out their goyf, and now you have a bunch of guys exponentially growing off of each other. Also goblins and goyflsigh are better matchups when you have a set of creatures in your deck that don't rely on the others to be good.
2. It opens up options for creature removal, against things such as goyf or lorescale coatl or goblins. Removing utility creatures is very helpful in many occasions (bob, lackey, etc.)
3. It opens the deck up to choices such as Krosan Grip and Trygon Predator. Enchantments and artifacts are the biggest threat to merfolk, and with the addition of green you get to kill them.
Merfolk and thresh are completely different. While you take out some merfolk to splash colors, you still have the aspect of creatures that pump each other and are unblockable to over 50% of the decks out there, protected by a suite of blue counterspells. You just add in another aspect (white removal, or green big beats) to try to balance out the weaknesses to a few of the decks in the format.
Ok, that's all pretty nice and true. Still I think you didn't get my point. You listed 3 aspects of the game that get stronger with green and white. All right. But all 3 of them pretty much apply to thresh deck as well.
After all you could replace Cursecatchers and Adepts with Geese and Rhinos cause they're just more powerful and don't rely on each other. Then you would just drop your lords and reejereys, get some more removal and card draw and tadaaa you've got a Bant.
Right now, after what you've just said, it seems that the only reason to run merfolks is islandwalk. Seems pretty sad. Is that all we've got?
Why isn't my avatar working?
Go playing threshold if you think islandwalk is a poor reason to play Merfolks, no one forces you to do it. But islandwalk lets you "only" swing with your dudes and strike with sure damage bypassing all the fatties a normal BANT plays.
The question is another, and it's eternal: why to play a tri color version of Merfolks where the mono colored version can do the same thing in a more solid way?
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Avatar of kicks_422's creation and property
The cost/benefit ratio of being able to use removal instead of pure bounce. When metagames shift to allow you to splash colors without losing much, you are then able to splash to be able to remove threats instead of having to at best bounce or tap them.
No need to go 'Grrrrr' on that one, Sir. Just stirring up a little debade.
I do actually enjoy playing Merfolk more than probably any other deck I've ever played and I can see it's obvious strenghts.
Maybe it's just me going [meh..] whenever I see goyf squeezed in every deck around.
Well, and that's a good one. Though I need to admit I've had plenty times when I really whished I had Stp in my hand. Right now, I'm planning to get hold of a set(or 3) of Dreadnoughts. It seems this card fits the deck pretty well as strenghtens most its weak points without having to splash any colour. I'm pretty surprised how everyone seems to have dropped this idea.
Why isn't my avatar working?
Picked it up for a while, drop it and pick it back up and usually end up dropping it again. A deck without cantrips like merfolk has a hard time with dreadnought. He's won me quite a few games, but in about as many as he's won for me he's sat as a dead card in my hand waiting for stifle.
The thing about him is that even in Dreadstill with a bunch of cantrips they play 5 Stifle effects, usually pretty sparingly because they need to save them for the dreadnought. Being a tempo deck, Merfolk love Stifling fetch lands and putting themselves ahead a turn on the tempo race.
We probably aren't going to play Trickbind like them, so you'll have to count on hitting one of the four Stifles. But you'll also have to save them, which is really tempting not to do since you aren't guaranteed to find a Dreadnought, and often that turn you spring ahead in tempo is enough to win you the game in Merfolk.
The last thing is that all stuff hits Dreadnought. EE, swords, smother, threads... yeah. We usually save counterspells for our lords, but obviously we'd switch priorities if we knew we would be getting out the nought, but again, without cantrips we never know if we'll hit the stifle for the nought or the nought for the stifle.
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