Back to thoughtseize. I didnt understand that change anyway...
Choke is a beating vs Landstill which isn't a great matchup. Since it's quite a meta factor in germany I prefer choke over Shusher which gets handled by Landstill withn ease.Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies
2nd point: No thresholdplayer boards grip vs aggroloam. That's a redicolous mistake. The got engineered explosives to get around the chalice or try to counter it. And they will probably board some gravehate. But never everArtifact hate. Thtat would coast him ~6-7 slots... think about.
++ Team aYb - all your base (are belong to us) ++
I'm afraid that I don't really get what you're trying to say..
Thoughtseize inztead of Shusher/Choke? (Doesn't really make any sense, does it?) Back to the discussion about the GB list? (Before and while you posted your idea + list we were talking about Choke vs Shusher already)
D'you realy suppose them to have 6-7 Krosan Grips in their SB?
Seriously though, I think 6-7 slots is a but excessive.
While I love Shusher in Loam it is hardly ever worth it against a competent pilot. Essentially Shusher reads (r/g)(r/g) pay a (r/g) to make the next spell you play in this phase uncounterable.
While I realize the argument he can die is typically seen as poor, I believe in this situation it is relevent since he loses all functionality and value in the deck when he gets killed. Not to mention while Fire and LBolt don't usually do much agaisnt us they give Thresh a good target for those. Otherwise those spells wouldn't even act as removal.
P.S.
Thresh brining in K-Grip is not unreasonable. Seismic Assault is a preety big beater agaisnt them. Typically if I resolve that and have access to Loam you don't lose unless they get a K-Grip.
Last edited by nodahero; 05-07-2009 at 06:57 PM. Reason: P.S. added
I like shusher + chalice. It just adds to the troubles that thresh/control decks have to deal with.
Shusher
Chalice
Wastelock
Seismic Assault
Burning wish -> Ravens crime (if you don't get a chalice)
And to top it off you play 10+ huge creatures and a wish board. The versatility and multiple ways the deck can win is why I love playing aggro loam.
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Team Brown & Team Unicorn. Does that make me a Brown Unicorn?
Not really. It's actualy more like: "Counter target counterspell that's countering one of your spells".
You do realise that you don't need to activate shusher until your opponent chooses to try to counter one of your spells, don't you? When you put a spell on the stack and your opponent tries to counter it, you still have more than enough time to make it uncounterable and make the counterspell "fizzle".
Actually, when I played against a Landstill deck in Round 8 of Chicago...my victory was due to Game 1 Shusher throwing him off balance. I ended up 2-1ing him to go to Round 9 as a 6-2, and both victories came down to Shusher denying him the ability to counter crucial spells I played. Actually, since maindecking Shusher, I've seen Landstill actually become a favorable matchup for me.
And Krosan Grip against Aggro-Loam is much bigger than you seem to think it is. First, it nails the commonly maindecked Chalice of the Void, Engineered Explosives, and Seismic Assault. From the sideboard, it also nails Blood Moon and Pithing Needle (common sideboard options in my experience). If you toss in a Choke into the mix, the Threshold player would be an idiot not to side in (or keep) Krosan Grip. And even if they don't side in Krosan Grip, if they see a Choke in Game 2...you better win, because the Grips will come in Game 3 against you.
So...in my humble opinion, Shusher + Chalice > Choke. Yes, it's too cards...but whereas Choke buys it to a single Krosan Grip, Shusher + Chalice requires more work to get around.
Anyways, I'll be getting some testing in this weekend with RBg Aggro-Loam and see how Tombstalkers work. I'll post some results on Sunday or Monday (attending a Legacy tournament Saturday with a Bazaar of Baghdad for 1st Place - last even this place had gave out a Library of Alexandria to 1st Place).
Don't Hate the Herd
Even if they DO board grips vs you g3... you don't play it when all his lands are untapped and he will need quite sometime to recover, getting 3 lands to grip your choke. That gives you ~ 6 turns to beat his face what should be enough.
++ Team aYb - all your base (are belong to us) ++
And what guarantee to you have that he isn't holding a Force of Will or Daze just for Choke? You seem to think all of them are idiots...yet I've seen Landstill players (or Control players in general) purposely tap out just to bait out a game breaking spell...so they can counter it.
You're not looking at the big picture. Against a typical Control deck...what is more damaging? Not being able to untap most of your lands and still be able to counter stuff, or being able to untap your lands and not being able to counter anything?
Furthermore...you seem to be assuming that they're only using U/x dual lands. But many Control decks utilized basic lands also, just to get around Moon effects and Wasteland. Choke also won't effect their fetchlands. So how do you intend to deal with a Krosan Grip cast off of two Mishra's Factories and a basic Forest the turn after you cast Choke?
Don't Hate the Herd
Keep in mind that we play 4 waste + loam...
++ Team aYb - all your base (are belong to us) ++
And what exactly will Wasteland do against basic lands?
Really...you're reaching now to defend Choke against Shusher + Chalice. Believe me...a skilled and experienced Control player will laugh at Choke and truly fear Shusher. Choke is much easier to work around than Shusher, since two of their main counterspells are still available for use and they play enough non-Island lands to ensure the Choke will eat a Krosan Grip very soon (and don't forget - SDT is actived with colorless, so as long as they have an untaps non-Island, they keep searching for Grip). So with Choke in play, they can still counter your main threats while finding an answer to Choke.
Shusher, however, renders their counterspells worthless. So they have no way to answer your threats as you play them, and can only respond reactively against them. And if they draw a single Swords to Plowshares after you've just used Shusher to drop a Vore or Crusher or Goyf or whatever...they have a dilemma. Do they kill the Shusher to make their counters work again and pray for more removal, or do they kill the new threat and pray for more removal to kill the Shusher? And it only gets more complicated when you drop a Chalice for 1 after the Shusher to eliminate Swords, Path, BEB, Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning, etc., etc.
Last edited by Solaran_X; 05-09-2009 at 01:07 AM.
Don't Hate the Herd
Seriously, have u ever played Choke against blue??? its good i promise., I have been drinking but still, even drunk i understand how good Choke is, please test it out and watch the opponent lose before dismissing.
"I just shot Marvin in the face!"
"Why the fuck'd you do that??"
But we're not talking about mono-blue. We're talking about Thresh and Landstill and their ilk. They play enough non-Island basics and nonbasics to ensure Choke eats a Krosan Grip.
I'm not saying Choke isn't good. But for Aggro-Loam, I seriously don't consider Choke to be as good as Shusher. Choke merely cuts them off of some of their mana, but doesn't guarantee that the spells we need resolve. Vexing Shusher guarantees our spells resolve when we need them to.
Like in the Enchantress I'm running at a Legacy event today, I board both Chokes and Shushers for different roles. In some decks, like Eva Green, I'd run just Choke and no Shusher.
Choke is very good for a mana denial role. Very, very good.
Shusher is very good at pushing spells through a wall of counterspells. Even if they finally win the war between Shusher and their counters, I've forced them to expend several counters to eliminate one threat.
They fill very different roles, and are very good at those roles. But Choke's role just doesn't really exist in Aggro-Loam.
Don't Hate the Herd
Why is Choke good in Enchantress or Eva Green, but not in Aggro Loam ? Good mana denial is something Aggro Loam likes as well...
Also, I haven't seen many Thresh lists run more than one non-Island mana source, and many that don't even run that. Grip and Predator being 3cc, it's not really THAT easy to ignore Choke. Anyway, I think the important points have been made, and now it's just everyone being stubborn about their favorite card being best
georgjorgeGeistreich sind schon die anderen.
Solaran hit the nail on the head with the 'different roles' issue. Eva Green is a tempo beatdown deck; when Choke makes the opponent stutter for a couple turns, you can drop three or four threats (Shade, Tombstalker, Goyf) and punch them in the head for fifteenish damage. Aggro Loam is more on the control side, undeniably a bit slower than Eva Green, so the opponent has more time to recover from that temporary hit on their mana. It is annoying, but a lot less likely to be fatal.
I don't mean to beat a dead horse so much as to introduce some logic to a 'favorite card being best' argument that was getting nowhere.
Coraz got it right.
Decks like Eva Green prefer the mana denial aspect of Choke since they can punch through a greater quantity (but a lower quality) of threats through a wall of Forces and Dazes. If Eva can resolve 3 threats in the 2 turns it takes Thresh or Landstill to Grip the Choke, they can probably win. And with the average cost of their beaters being BB and even then being backed up by Hymn, Thoughtseize, and Sinkhole...it's a beating.
Aggro-Loam, however, runs fewer actual threats with an average 3CMC each. So we can't drop as many per turn to draw out Forces and Dazes in order to push one or two through. Furthermore, we lack the hand disruption and Sinkholes of Eva. Because of that, it's better for Loam to run Shusher since it forces our big hitters to hit the field, despite Force and Daze.
Don't Hate the Herd
So what is the "best" list? I'm furthering my gauntlet and my options, and I want a very solid list for a general metagame. Isn't there a 4c version of this also with white in it?
I don't like screwing around trying to figure out what works when you guys already know. Does this have any kind of positive matchup vs. Solidarity or ANT?
Thank you for your help in advance,
Pce,
--DC
Schadenfreude is the most genuine kind of joy, since it doesn't include even a drop of envy.Why can't we just admit it?
As far as the decks matchup vs. combo is concerned, it is largely dependant on build, as well as the skill of the combo player. Whenever I play aggro loam I played 4 CotV main over top/thoughtseize, and a turn 1 CotV at 1 or 0 backed up by a quick succession of bob+threat can make games a blowout.
Being able to play successfully around wasteland, DD (if the game goes long), and CotV (along with potential SB hate, namely extirpate/thoughtseize, though possibly Leyline, GY hate like crypt, and possibly other cards) will really help the combo player.
However, I would say except for the most extreme anti-combo builds of loam, ANT/TES/Solidarity should have a positive matchup.
Team MAINEdeck - Like Meandeck, but without the skill, maturity, and interesting states to live in.
I like what Paradigm had to say before this, but I'd add that Raven's Crime is absolutely stupid in this deck. I say that, of course, being a habitual Rock player (I've been known to play it in Sealed, even), but there's no reason not to run four. (I would argue that it's best to get Crime going early, so it's better to maindeck four; by the time you're casting Burning Wish, you want something with a little more oomph, a Worm Harvest or a Devastating Dreams.)
Being a Rock player, I never used Burning Wish in my extended builds of Loam; I always found it to be extraneous. I was either Wishing for an 'oh shit, I'm about to die' panic button or a Trevor Hoffman to slam the door.
That could, of course, be due to a variety of things that don't impact you, or even Legacy at large. I've been too busy with school these last couple months to run Loam much since we were testing it for GP-Chicago in January, but when I pick it back up I'm actually thinking of running Living Wish and a creature-heavy sideboard. I'm partial to Stronghold/Ruins-style long game recursion (I fell in love with It's The Fear about a month ago, for instance), so take that with a grain of salt, but I feel like it's something to chew on.
I wrote that last bit largely thinking of Kataki without realizing that Burning Wish can grab Meltdown. *headdesk* I'm willing to stand by the Living Wish though, and hopefully I can have some test results for y'alls in a week or two.
I should probably have tossed an idea up for the Wish 'board. I'm probably going to start with
1 Kataki
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Shriekmaw
1 Darkheart Sliver (simply for mana cost, there's a dozen things that fill this role)
4 Offalsnout
1 Ethersworn Canonist (if i can Living Wish turn one and drop this turn two, ANT and it's brethren could have some problems)
Since Living Wish can also hit lands, I'd throw either a Wasteland or a Dust Bowl in there (depending on whether all four Wastelands are already in the main, as is my habit). I do want to leave room for Extirpate, which is good against Dredge and solid in a number of other matches.
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