[Article] What Next for Legacy? Formatscaping

[ddt15]

ANT was definetly too powerful. I've had a few matches with top8 on the line (me playing Goblins), when I played lackey+several hate pieces on the play and its still not enough. If the ANT player doesn't screw up you really stand no chance even in a supposedly favorable situation like that.

I wouldn't mind if they unbanned some other cards though to keep combo viable, specifically thinking of Frantic Search and Time Spiral; no deck outside of High Tide can play it, it would make High Tide a real deck again (as in fast enough to beat creature decks... -brings to mind why its ok for creatures to rush you in 3 turns but no combo?-) but still have an enormous problem against counterbalance so it gets kept in check.

[Nelis]

No.

If a very strong deck that beats almost all other match ups has a Achilles' heel then we can call it a bad match up, health format and we can love our metagame that there isn't only one very strong deck that can beats everything. I know that many people like Jund on Standard, but ... hey, I was a zoo player but I just accepted that I can beat merfolks and merfolks can beats ANT and ANT can beats me...

I'm sorry but if there's one deck (or 1 archetype, combo in this case) that beats the number 2 archetype (aggro) and the other archetype (control) consistently than we're not talking about bad match ups anymore. And if the mirror depends on who draws the first mystical tutor then it is clear to me that there's something really wrong.

Basically I'm arguing that ANT and to lesser extent Reanimator (because its just a bit easier to hate) do not have bad match-ups apart from each other.

I know its hard for me to argue that a deck which doesn't see enough top 8's (for whatever reason) is unbeatable. But anyone who has played Zoo vs ANT knows Zoo doesn't even have a fighting change.

I think it's save to say that Madrid has attracted players from over the whole world so that it's the best example of what every metagame in the world has to offer. So to me it's not a big surprise there haven't been any Americans in the top 8 because they were too busy playing zoo and other crappy decks that do not beat Reanimator or ANT.

[EssKay]

People are still complaining about this?

[Sims]

I think it's save to say that Madrid has attracted players from over the whole world so that it's the best example of what every metagame in the world has to offer. So to me it's not a big surprise there haven't been any Americans in the top 8 because they were too busy playing zoo and other crappy decks that do not beat Reanimator or ANT.

Wait wait wait wait, waiiiit.. waiiiiiiiit....

So American's, as a whole, in general. All of us. Didn't top 8 a European GP becuase we were too busy playing bad decks that don't beat ANT or Reanimator. Right, so I can use the same line and say you were too busy playing decks that don't beat Zoo or Countertop when you're not in the Top 8 of Columbus? Just because it was a large GP doesn't mean many american's outside of Pros even WENT, and how do we know that those who did go weren't playing th same combo decks and faced bad matchups and draws? Please don't over-generalize the issue and say that American's only are bad magic players because we didn't have a strong, unbeatable ANT presence. I can gaurantee that most players in the Netherlands are just as bad as the majority of American players. Don't slam us in your attempts to defend the ban.

By the way, weren't there 3 Zoo decks in the top 8 of Madrid?

[FoulQ]

I can't believe some of you people really believe ANT was "too powerful."

The cold hard results are there. ANT was not dominating tournaments. Reanimator was not dominating tournaments.

Results determine power levels, not personal anecdotes and hurt feelings.

So the argument that the mystical tutor ban was necessary for power level has just been completely invalidated, by me.

People are still complaining about this?

If you read Finn's article you'd know that he meant for it to be published a lot sooner, but that complications arose, and he figured he might as well post it here since it still is a pretty nice article.

[menace13]

Does Holland have any stats on ANT's top 8 penetration, win percentage and percentage of the field overall and top 8 makeup for the months of March-June? I hear it was huge there, all the time from just about anyone who plays there.

Disclaiimer: Not disrespecting my Dutch peeps cos i love your Luxury cars,Amsterdam and Beers

[Vacrix]

ANT was definetly too powerful. I've had a few matches with top8 on the line (me playing Goblins), when I played lackey+several hate pieces on the play and its still not enough. If the ANT player doesn't screw up you really stand no chance even in a supposedly favorable situation like that.

I wouldn't mind if they unbanned some other cards though to keep combo viable, specifically thinking of Frantic Search and Time Spiral; no deck outside of High Tide can play it, it would make High Tide a real deck again (as in fast enough to beat creature decks... -brings to mind why its ok for creatures to rush you in 3 turns but no combo?-) but still have an enormous problem against counterbalance so it gets kept in check.

Wow so ANT was too powerful AND you would rather have a consistent turn 3 combo deck that can win in response that maindeck's Force of Will? Did I mention that Solidarity also rapes the shit out of control with Mindbreak Trap and soon with Autumn's Veil? I'm all for it and am optimistic but you underestimate how good it would be, since you are implicitly comparing it to ANT by saying 'this deck was too strong but I wouldn't mind playing against this one'. Sure Solidarity has problems with Counterbalance. You still have plenty of options. You can Force Counterbalance, and you can destroy it with Krosan Grip. CB decks have unspeakably slow clocks, especially against decks like Solidarity that only play Instant/Land (small Goyfs). Its not as bad a matchup as people tend to consider it. I've chained Remands together for several turns until I had the resources to just go off in response to CB, and remove 2 FoW's and CB with Mindbreak Trap.

If the ANT player doesn't screw up is an oxymoron. I have yet to watch someone pilot ANT optimally IRL. Everyone I have ever watched play it was basically playing Belcher.

[Hanni]

If a very strong deck like zoo that beats almost all other match ups simply cannot win from combo (ANT / Reanimator) then there's something really wrong.

Wait. So what you are saying is, that since Zoo beats every other deck except combo, that combo should be banned so that Zoo can beat every deck? Please tell me that's not what you meant...

[EssKay]

If you read Finn's article you'd know that he meant for it to be published a lot sooner, but that complications arose, and he figured he might as well post it here since it still is a pretty nice article.

I did read it, then I read 2 pages of the same arguments that I've read in every other Mystical banning thread since the news was first announced.

[Rico Suave]

Any strategy can be stopped. That does not mean it should remain legal.

[ddt15]

Wow so ANT was too powerful AND you would rather have a consistent turn 3 combo deck that can win in response that maindeck's Force of Will? Did I mention that Solidarity also rapes the shit out of control with Mindbreak Trap and soon with Autumn's Veil? I'm all for it and am optimistic but you underestimate how good it would be, since you are implicitly comparing it to ANT by saying 'this deck was too strong but I wouldn't mind playing against this one'. Sure Solidarity has problems with Counterbalance. You still have plenty of options. You can Force Counterbalance, and you can destroy it with Krosan Grip. CB decks have unspeakably slow clocks, especially against decks like Solidarity that only play Instant/Land (small Goyfs). Its not as bad a matchup as people tend to consider it. I've chained Remands together for several turns until I had the resources to just go off in response to CB, and remove 2 FoW's and CB with Mindbreak Trap.

If the ANT player doesn't screw up is an oxymoron. I have yet to watch someone pilot ANT optimally IRL. Everyone I have ever watched play it was basically playing Belcher.

If CB is a not as bad matchup as people consider it to be, then I guess all the other matchups are? I mean I very rarely see High Tide decks and when I do its usually on the bottom tables, losing to homebrews.

Also here in Europe running into at least one ANT matchup every tournament was getting real annoying tbh. Reanimator the same but you could at least beat it with Leylines.

I'm also in favor of unbanning Goblin Recruiter. I mean... Food Chain? Really? Come on WotC. They could've given us some more along with Monolith and Mask.

[SpikeyMikey]

Dude, we all know that the Dutch are to Magic what Koreans are to Starcraft. If the Dutch are getting rolled by tons of AnT, us mere mortals in the US must obviously accept that we are simply playing inferior decks that can't beat AnT. Obviously, all the AnT players in the US were bad players who didn't know how their deck functioned while all the good players were playing bad decks (probably through a "gentleman's agreement") which is why AnT underperformed in the US not only in Tx (8, 16, whatever) placement but also in comparison to metagame saturation, i.e. Zoo might make up 20% of the field but 30% of the top 32 while AnT might make up 15% of the field but only represent 8% of the top 32. Don't forget that in the hands of a competent (read Dutch) player, AnT never mulls into oblivion and always goes off turn 2 (maybe sometimes turn 3 but only on the play so that it can't be raced by Zoo) and can win through any amount of hate, all because of Mystical Tutor.

I hate to have to use sarcasm in a serious discussion because it's the verbal (or written as the case may be) equivalent of slapping someone in the face. But I've heard that sometimes slapping people will bring them out of hysterics and some people here are definitely hysterical about the AnT boogeyman.

I have maintained that the success of AnT in the North Atlantic is strictly due to meta saturation and not any inherent dominance of the deck. It's a good deck, I wanted to play it at Chicago, but it's never been the best deck in the format, and that's backed up with hard figures, not just personal anecdotes or opinions.

[3eowulf]

To be honest I decided to look at the second biggest legacy event in Europe in this semester, the Bazaar of Moxen (498! players).

Here you can find the complete analysis.

It obviously shows the dominance of both ANT and Reanimator, you just have to look... ok, maybe I should rephrase: It obviously shows how the tournament would have been dominated by both ANT and Reanimator, if dutchies would have played said decks, breaking their gentlemen's agreement.

Or maybe it shows the dominance of Daze decks (3 in top8, 2 in the finals)!

Do I have to link other top8s?

Or can we agree that evidence from more than one source shows an healty and diverse format, and therefore the bannings were not based on power level?


EDIT: Btw, I was forgetting... good article.

[denial]

- Excuse me, Is Wizards going to do a Metagame Breakdown of this event?
- No.
- Perfect. If so, Could I take all the decklists home? I own a Blog and I’m editor for a famous store in Madrid and would love to do the Metagame Breakdown and Analysis.
- I’m sorry but Stephen Menendian already asked for them.


lol.

[mchainmail]

Also here in Europe running into at least one ANT matchup every tournament was getting real annoying tbh. Reanimator the same but you could at least beat it with Leylines.

Leylines were never good hate for reanimator whatsoever... And running into one ANT matchup... so if I'm playing Standard, how often am I going to run into the Jund matchup?


You should be happy it's 1 in 6, not 3 in 6!

[ddt15]

Dude, we all know that the Dutch are to Magic what Koreans are to Starcraft. If the Dutch are getting rolled by tons of AnT, us mere mortals in the US must obviously accept that we are simply playing inferior decks that can't beat AnT. Obviously, all the AnT players in the US were bad players who didn't know how their deck functioned while all the good players were playing bad decks (probably through a "gentleman's agreement") which is why AnT underperformed in the US not only in Tx (8, 16, whatever) placement but also in comparison to metagame saturation, i.e. Zoo might make up 20% of the field but 30% of the top 32 while AnT might make up 15% of the field but only represent 8% of the top 32. Don't forget that in the hands of a competent (read Dutch) player, AnT never mulls into oblivion and always goes off turn 2 (maybe sometimes turn 3 but only on the play so that it can't be raced by Zoo) and can win through any amount of hate, all because of Mystical Tutor.

Funny that almost sounds just like what WotC said when they banned MT.

I'm not Dutch btw.

[Eddy Wally]

Nelis, do you participate in belgian tournaments from time to time as well? We have that annoying overabundance of ANT decks here too, the metagame is probably more or less comparable to the one in Holland. I'm not sure how common that deck is in other parts of the world, but local experience tells me it needed to get nerfed somewhat. Preventing your opponent from playing 13 spells in one turn isn't why most people pick up a deck.

In the last few (four or five) years, I took sligh, zoo, red *****, aggroloam and nopro-countertop bant decks to legacy tournaments (in that order). Each of those decks had at least 12 creatures. It's nothing more than a personal preference, but creature combat is just more fun than a non-interactive combo deck. I'll never make the pro tour or world championship, I just go to tournaments because there you can play against opponents who don't fool around and actually try to win properly (some level of competition is always fun). I know there are a lot of people who think like this. You go to play competitively, and have fun at the same time. Wizards catered to that demographic, and I'm glad they did so.

[Nelis]

Wait. So what you are saying is, that since Zoo beats every other deck except combo, that combo should be banned so that Zoo can beat every deck? Please tell me that's not what you meant...

No. that's not completely what I meant.

Zoo can be kept in check by other decks like midrange decks like the Rock (Skeggi elaborated on this somewhere on the forum). He argued that even with all the disruption those decks cant win from ANT either. I happen to believe his assessment.

So by making ANT less consistent, there's room for those decks again which makes for a more healthy metagame. It sure as hell make the metagame fun again if you ask me.

Nelis, do you participate in belgian tournaments from time to time as well? We have that annoying overabundance of ANT decks here too, the metagame is probably more or less comparable to the one in Holland. I'm not sure how common that deck is in other parts of the world, but local experience tells me it needed to get nerfed somewhat. Preventing your opponent from playing 13 spells in one turn isn't why most people pick up a deck.

In the last few (four or five) years, I took sligh, zoo, red *****, aggroloam and nopro-countertop bant decks to legacy tournaments (in that order). Each of those decks had at least 12 creatures. It's nothing more than a personal preference, but creature combat is just more fun than a non-interactive combo deck. I'll never make the pro tour or world championship, I just go to tournaments because there you can play against opponents who don't fool around and actually try to win properly (some level of competition is always fun). I know there are a lot of people who think like this. You go to play competitively, and have fun at the same time. Wizards catered to that demographic, and I'm glad they did so.

No I live in Groningen which is just a wee bit too far from the south border. But I think your absolutely right.

Wait wait wait wait, waiiiit.. waiiiiiiiit....

So American's, as a whole, in general. All of us. Didn't top 8 a European GP becuase we were too busy playing bad decks that don't beat ANT or Reanimator. Right, so I can use the same line and say you were too busy playing decks that don't beat Zoo or Countertop when you're not in the Top 8 of Columbus? Just because it was a large GP doesn't mean many american's outside of Pros even WENT, and how do we know that those who did go weren't playing th same combo decks and faced bad matchups and draws? Please don't over-generalize the issue and say that American's only are bad magic players because we didn't have a strong, unbeatable ANT presence. I can gaurantee that most players in the Netherlands are just as bad as the majority of American players. Don't slam us in your attempts to defend the ban.

By the way, weren't there 3 Zoo decks in the top 8 of Madrid?

I overreacted a bit because a lot of Americans tend to look not further than their own border and think the rest of the world is the same. (in this case always only referring to Starcitygames 5k metagames). In no way I meant to offend any American. Nor do I want to imply they're any better or worse players. Of course its not fair to judge play skills of a whole nation by the top 8 of one tournament. If you feel offended then please accept my apologies. I get carried away sometimes, especially when I think I'm right.

If you read the top 8 reports you will see those zoo decks had absolutely NO chance fighting those decks (apart from one very lucky and unlikely win).

[tsabo_tavoc]

I believe some pointed this out. From the color pie point of view, WotC has been trying hard to push other colors on par with blue but is unlikely to manage so without banning blue card(s) or making the format degenerate. Brainstorm and Mystical Tutor are the two candidates and WotC opted the latter, props to them!

[menace13]

I overreacted a bit because a lot of Americans tend to look not further than their own border and think the rest of the world is the same. (in this case always only referring to Starcitygames 5k metagames). In no way I meant to offend any American. Nor do I want to imply they're any better or worse players. Of course its not fair to judge play skills of a whole nation by the top 8 of one tournament. If you feel offended then please accept my apologies. I get carried away sometimes, especially when I think I'm right.

If you read the top 8 reports you will see those zoo decks had absolutely NO chance fighting those decks (apart from one very lucky and unlikely win).

Ok, so apparently Holland did not bother to take numbers down and all I can get is people accounts?