I totally disagree with the reactiveness factor. First of all lets figure out what model your refering to. As theres really 3 different models that play completely different games.
Counter-top still
wish still
Geof's Vindicate still
Spell snare against counter-top and vindicate-still is very strong
Counterbalance
Standstill
Counterspell
Meddling Mage
Not only does it win counterwars but it takes out your opponents Virtual CA.
Totally agreed... No one doubts of the power of spell snare, citrus point was only relative to counterwars; supposing that in mirror matches we have to face 3 form of counters (spell snare, fow, cs), and supposing me and my opponent have the same number of counters, spell snare is good for the player who starts the threat, not for the player who want to counter it. Whereas, having the same sit, clique tears away the counter backup of the opponent posing a threat. (The same is true, on the other hand, of CS being bad for the player who pose the threat and...well, also bad for the one who tries to counter ahahah!) In just this sit, clique offers far more advantages than the other 2 counters. In all the other cases... well... you pretty well summarized why spell snare is amazing!Originally Posted by mossivo1986
I played at a 74 player tournament on sunday and failed horribly. Hereīs a short report.
Decklist:
// Lands
4 [B] Tundra
3 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
1 [A] Underground Sea
1 [U] Scrubland
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [6E] Island (3)
2 [OD] Plains (3)
1 [MM] Dust Bowl
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [FUT] Tolaria West
// Creatures
1 [LRW] Jace Beleren
2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
// Spells
3 [OD] Standstill
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [7E] Counterspell
4 [A] Swords to Plowshares
2 [TE] Humility
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [SC] Decree of Justice
2 [9E] Wrath of God
2 [JU] Cunning Wish
// Sideboard
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
SB: 2 [LRW] Ajani Goldmane
SB: 1 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 [FNM] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 3 [CNF] Path to Exile
SB: 1 [TSP] Return to Dust
SB: 1 [PLC] Extirpate
Btw, the first fail was to see some drunk jerk taking a shit at a house near to mine when I went outside to get some energy drink.
Round 1 Affinity
G1: He gets some pressure, I wrath. He follows with a 5/5 Master and a 5/5 Enforcer which I have to chumpblock to prevent to get into Blast range. After Return to Dust fucked both of his threats, Elspeth rides..no flyes for the victory.
+3 Path To Exile
-2 Vendilion Clique (Shouldīve kept one in instead of Decree as itīs Removal for thopter with Plating)
-1 Jace
G2: This one was easy. Path,Swords,Wrath,Elspeth,gg.
1-0 2-0
Round 2 Bgw Survival
G1: He leds with three thoughtseizes followed by Survival which I snare (I had top). He talks about how crappy it is that he canīt get rid of Elspeth with P.Deed, but tries it one turn later. He should definitely sleep more before the next tournament. After deed is gone, I can easily drop Humility and STandstill which I was holding for some time.
+2 Relic
+1 Crypt
-2 Wrath
-1 Vendilion
G2 is a copy of g2, with the only exception of Relic hitting Squee and Genesis making Survival useless.
2-0 4-0
Failing starts.
Round 3 R/g Goyfsligh
G1: After three Hellspark Elementals and some Mancer shocks Iīm able to stabilize with Wish->Pulse which he tries to prevent by manaburning himself. After some turns he realize he canīt keep this up and gives up.
So, This was the matchup I was expecting most combined with Counter/Top.
+3 Path +3 Kitchen Finks +2 Ajani
-2 Humility -2 Vendilion Clique -1 Jace -1 Decree -1 Wrath
G2: Well, I keep a good hand consisting of 3 lands, top, 2 snares and a Brainstorm. He leds with Shusher turn two and I fail at drawing a swords/Path/finks/wrath/ajani/wish and die some turns later.
G3: My opening hand is good again, and again I fail at getting any Sideboard cards. He red blasts a wish and after I got rid of the first shusher he just lays down a second one. I got toasted.
2-1 5-2
Round 4: Fred with Uwb Vindicate Still
G1: Long story short: He goes for Tolaria->Dust Bowl on turn 3 which I answer with an Elspeth and a topdecked Dust Bowl afterwards. I win :P
+2 Ajani +3 Finks
-2 Wrath -2 Humility -1 Sword
G2: I tend to play control mirrors very aggressively and therefor drop an Ajani on turn 4, building a 26/26 Token on turn 6 with the protection of Standstill and a Wish which could get a pitched FoW back with him at zero cards and a lonely Finks. THis time he fails at getting an answer and dies.
3-1 7-2
Round 5: Merrows without denial but with 7 manlands
G1: He leds with Mutavault->Relic, I go for TUndra->Top. Allthough he`s stuck on two Vaults for a couple of turns Iīm unable to apply ANY pressure and after he got an Island and a Rejeery he goes nutz.
Cursesratcher untapping Island, same again, two Adepts and aVial later itīs my turn. With a Clique I see two dazes and a Fow which I put back on the bottom. But since I didnīt got a sixth land I canīt go for wrath thorugh 2 daze and 2 Scratcher and receive a big punch in the face. I wished for a Tutor which searches a Humility now. Even after some shuffling I donīt find more lands and die shortly afterwards to his Mutavaults.
+3 Path +3 Finks +1 Tutor
-1 DoJ -1 Jace -2 Wish -3 STandstill
G2: His start isnīt impressive and with a wel timed swords my mishraīs can destroy his whole board. One Elspeth later itīs up to Game 3:
G3: I keep a one lander with 2 Explosives, Force+Pitch and a Top. He annuls my top which I attempt to Force, heīs got the daze. I get lucky and draw some lands, but he getīs his 1-off Needle of the top for my Explosives. With some Removals and his missing pressure I manage to donīt loose this one until time is up.
3-1-1 8-3-1
Fail. for not winning G1.
Round 6 Alex with MUC
G1: Iīd better keep quite about this since itīs just awkward. He mulls down to 4!, has to keep a zero land hand and still wins -.-. Iīm unable to deal him ANY point of damage until turn 1 billion where I cycle decree which he can easily handle with Shackles+Explosives. I canīt get rid of his last 2 or 3 lifepoints and loose to Oona :(
This game took so long that we only have about 10 minutes left.
+2 Ajani +3 Finks
-2 Humility -3 swords -1 Wrath
G2: Iīm screwed allthough I have top from turn one and he can easily keep me under check. I scoop to get some fresh air.
Never lost to a mulligan to 4 before :(
3-2-1 8-5-1
Round 7 totally nerved I have to play a mirror again with him playing two decrees and crucible.
G1: Most annoying game of the year. I receive some serious beatings from an early Elspeth and both of his decrees. Iīm able to get rid of it with my own Decree/Elspeth and a Mishra to block the last tokens. I get dust bowl and land a STandstill. I also have the advantage of Top all the time. From now on itīs draw discard for about 15 turns. We trade some spells/lands and Dust bowl keeps him under check. I finally draw my own Jace and start to deck him. I think I made some mistakes here because I was very tired but finally Iīm able to Extirpate his Explosives so he canīt keep is EE/Ruins Combo up. I was at 1 life with 5 cards left in my library. I definitely shouldīnt have discarded the third standstill there :S
Since there are only 8 minutes left my boarding was:
+2 Path +2 Ajani
-2 Humility -2 Wrath
G2: Iīm very confident to win this 1-0 but he gets the nutz draw with Island, Mishra->Standstill ->Dust Bowl->Mishra. I have to break it and Iīm rewarded with Elspeth on his side. My only chance is to draw a bunch of removal and Wish for Pulse. Pulse resolves some times since he had to use his forces to push Elspeth through. Thanks to Top I get 2 Paths and 2 Swords and therefor Iīm able to stay alive until timeīs over. phew.
Final result: 4-2-1 10-5-1
Props:
-The first two rounds
- nice opponents
- two bigmacs for the prize of one
- Tobias Dreger (got there with us) for going 7-0 with ITF Crushing DS and Loam
- my lilīsisters nintendo ds light+mario cart for
Slops:
-The other five rounds
- 3 Control matches
- not winning the matchup I spent 8 SB slots for shorten the trip
I need a new list, gogo mossivo :>
greetz,
NQN
Run my list, its better :) Just being honest.I need a new list, gogo mossivo :>
-Love and Kisses
MoSs
p.s. congrats on the finish.
sry
Last edited by NQN; 05-19-2009 at 10:56 AM.
That single counterspell looks lonely.
Co-Founder of Team Awesome - I heard Randy Buehler say a while back that good players give themselves the most number of turns to find the answer.
The Source on MTGO - Predator8785 and RockOut
Every time you cast counterspell in todays metagame, your 7th grade math teacher comes to haunt your bed.
On the real, 1 of humility and 1 of counterspell are far more insignificant than running straight out relic of progenitus in the preboard.
Out of your side the biggest misses I saw were fracturing gust, which wasn't a big deal; and also lack of fourth path "which concievably cost you a game" and lack of blast 2x which is more then likely what caused you another game, and addition of slow mass kitchen finks. Finks has no synergy with humility and isn't even as relivent as descendants of kamigawa are. You mine as well do what I do and replace your finks with 2 blasts and a cop red, it will better suit you in that matchup which you were meaning to make better as well as other matchups.
Overall you did fine as far as I can see, but you could really open up a couple more sideboard slots to really aid additional matchups as opposed to scrubbing on them with subpar answers.
^ There's a reason I don't post in this thread anymore.
Co-Founder of Team Awesome - I heard Randy Buehler say a while back that good players give themselves the most number of turns to find the answer.
The Source on MTGO - Predator8785 and RockOut
Yeah that wasn't the greatest one liner. I was at work, give me a break.
sry again <.<
Last edited by NQN; 05-19-2009 at 10:56 AM.
@ NQN:
// Lands
4 [B] Tundra
3 [B] Island (3)
3 [B] Plains (1)
3 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
1 [FUT] Tolaria West
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [MM] Dust Bowl
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [B] Underground Sea
1 [B] Scrubland
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
// Creatures
2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 [LRW] Jace Beleren
// Spells
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [TE] Humility
2 [B] Wrath of God
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [OD] Standstill
3 [IA] Brainstorm
2 [JU] Cunning Wish
2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 [TSP] Return to Dust
SB: 1 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 4 [CNF] Path to Exile
SB: 1 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 2 [LRW] Ajani Goldmane
SB: 1 [B] Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 1 [SHM] Fracturing Gust
SB: 3 [CS] Counterbalance/ MM/ Runed halo/ Engineered plague/ more blasts
Hey NQN,
Why did you post your report three times???
I played a smaller tournament Saturday and ended second after Merfolk. Every matchup felt good except the final. Any idea how to beat that deck. I played a Vindicate list with 4 Engineered Plague in the SB.
Thanks
4 PTE works nicely out of the board. You can still win pre-board and I think the legitimate removal package post board is:
4 sword
4 PTE
3 EE
2 Wrath
1 Humility or 3rd Wrath
So what to minus against this monster of a deck.
2 decree
2 relic
Simple enough:) If they play green for goyf side out wish instead to mantain your relics. +1 if your severly uncomfortable with goyf.
Why Vendillion Clique over Counterspell? It is a crappy 3/1 critter thats bad under Humility and not even does real card-advantage (your opponent may draw a good card for the one you take him, exspecially if he has a Top in play...)
And why only 3 Brainstorms??? If there's any card (exept Force of Will) i would never cut, then it is Brainstorm...
I agree with you that it is possible to cut the 2. Humility and it's sweet to have Relics in the Maindeck.
4 Spell Snares have been proven to be right too.
For reference, here is my actuel list:
http://www.mercadia.de/home/page.php.../deck&id=75097
Greetz,
Marius Hausmann
Marius,
I like your list a lot - if I were to run CunningStill again, I'd probably copy-paste yours - good work.
After testing zoo Ad infinitum I have reversed my opinion about cunning wish. I was concerned, rightly I believe, that it was too slow. Here is the interaction I observed again and again, Zoo lands one or two creatures, which you deal with but not before taking some damage from them. Zoo sandbags their burn untill they have 4 or 5 mana (and pathing their attackers makes this easier for them) and they unload 5 burn spells in one turn FtW. You cannot tap out for FoF or Decree at their eot, because they just respond and blow you out. If you respond to burn, with dig, tht is a signal to open up with Blast and PoP. Even playing around PoP you end up with 2 non-basics in play to be in a position to win. Vindicate, all star in other matches, is a death sentence here. Its too slow, and fails to address their reach in any meaningful way. Main deck PtE helps, but has to be supplementary to other efforts to stop them, drawing 2 PtE as your removal is fucking awful. The ability to wish for Pulse game one is the only devastating play against them.
I am firmly of the opinion that you need to have devastating plays available against your likely match ups. With zoo in ascendency, it has to be addressed. I play zoo, which started out of a desire to understand the deck, but which has become a favorite strategy. It should be noted that PtE is awesome vs Ichorid. Infact it makes me feel like I have a real shot vs them Game one. 3 EE, 6 plow effects, FoW for Dread Return and what not. They obviously ban beat anything with the right opening, but when they don't get it, you have a real shot.
What all this ammounts to is a desire to be able to steal game one from Zoo and Ichorid. The dilemma I am facing it that you can't be configured to do both and keep your solid and commanding matches where they are.
A few thoughts on the counter suits I'm looking at:
3 Counterspells
3 Spell Snares
vs
2 Counterspells
4 Spell Snares
Snare is statigicly superior vs Tempo Thresh and Zoo.
Counterspell is much beter Vs. Ichorid, and Dragon Stompy.
Counter Top hates/is vulnerable to them about equally. I think that Vs. Counter top and the Mirror you mostly want variety, so the 3/3 split is useful because it's harder to play around.
LED, LED, Announce my intention to play Yawgmoth's Bargain...
I pretty much agree. -1 Hum +1 Decree and i'd run it.
As for the cramp:
Yes ANT is a horrible matchup, but my thoughts are maybe counterbalance can win this because its counterbalance and thats what it does :).
Against the new zoo yes pulse is awesome. The idea in these matchups is to soak up some of their burn and alittle of the creatures. This should buy you about 3 turns. After that your in dangerous territory. You need to get pulse asap been playing around them, aka fetching for basics/ removing threats asap, trying to save your swords to either zap your own mishra's or land multiple standstills in the hope that you'll simply out draw to outdraw them with better cards. Its funny because vendillion clique is an auto hotness in this matchup because it smokes their POP or FIREblast. Though they are only running 3 pop and 3 blast to make room for their beats.
Clique was fine for me all day long, but I donīt think Iīll play it again. It just didnīt had the Impact I want it to have. I donīt think it was because of the lack of Gust, which would have sucked even against affinity. Finks are usual great, IF you are able to draw them. I donīt think my loss to Rg was mainly because of my decklist but just because of bad luck. Iīm going to play some goblins next time I guess :)
Okay, so it turns out I don't like wish. I'm probably just terrible at magic but everytime I drew it I wanted it to be a vindicate or force of will. I'm going back to a vindicate model with no maindeck wrath. Does anyone here run the full vindicate playset? I think I want a spotremoval.dec approach, so I'm going to try it. Looking at my list, do you guys think I should keep the single crucible or up wasteland to four?
3 flooded strand
3 polluted delta
3 mishra's factory
3 wasteland
4 tundra
1 underground sea
1 scrubland
2 island
2 plains
1 swamp
4 brainstorm
3 standstill
2 fact or fiction
2 sensei's divining top
2 counterspell
4 spell snare
4 force of will
4 swords to plowshares
4 vindicate
3 engineered explosives
2 elspeth, knight errant
2 decree of justice
1 crucible of worlds
4 blue elemental blast
3 runed halo
3 relic of projentus
2 tormod's crypt
3 wrath of god (only really want it against goblins and merfolk)
@ 3duece, depends on your meta, if you face a shit ton of midrange, your list is dope. But your a sitting duck for combo and fast agro. Take that for what you will. But if your meta is a ton of midrange argo and control I would go 2 vindicate 2 Humility. Humility makes Elspeth and Factory scary scary scary. When her soldiers start trading with tombstalkers, Goyfs, and terravors and the factories just eat them... well your in a good position. Also, you can tap out for humility against Ichorid T4 and win long long games against them from time to time.
@ Mossivo, yup I pack 3 CB side. It comes in Vs Zoo, and combo. I love it. I think I have given up on halo. Useless vs. zoo if they pack Pridemage, and ANT just bounces it after chanting. Yeah in my Zoo build I run 4 PoP, it is the 3rd un negotiable card alongside 'Goyf, Nactle, and Lightning Bolt (ok 4th.) It's that good. Also, w/ 4 goyf it helps to overwhelm Spell Snare. I also pack Sulphours Vortex in the side which can give control decks fits. If your playing against a zoo deck with helix, Pulse is even better.
I need to test Clique, I can't take anyone's word for it, I need to try it for myself. But it seems like a card I love. Push away a burn card, block your attacker, profit. Cycle a redundant land, or Elspeth, or whatever. Clock your opponent in the dome ftw, etc. I must give it a shot. I do dislike its disynergy with humility. Seems cool with moat. Moat has dropped in value with the use of pridemage however. (I like it better than trygon in many ways.)
Here is the list I have refined to for the tournament I am hitting up Saturday.
Land [23]:
1 Academy Ruins
1 Dust Bowl
3 Usine de Mishra
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
4 Island
2 Plains
2 Poluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
Counter Suit:
3 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
Draw:
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
2 Sensei's Divining Top
Removal:
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile
2 Wrath of God
2 Humility
3 Engineered Explosives
Win Con:
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Decree of Justice
1 Crucible of Worlds
Side:
3 Counterbalance
3 BEB
2 Plague
3 Relic
2 Pulse
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Top
I may shift things to include Cunning Wish and change the side. I like Pulse better than Ajani for what its worth.
LED, LED, Announce my intention to play Yawgmoth's Bargain...
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