[DTB] Vial Goblins

[Avatara]

Playing 4 Lackey and 4 Vial doesn't guaranty you to have one of them in your opening hand. I have no eperience with the deck and thus can't say anything about the quality of Fanatic itself, but you can't simply assume that 8 1drops is enough to have one in your opening 7. So saying you want Lackey/Vial over Fanatic is not really relevant always.

Taking aggressive mulligans is vital for Goblins. If you can't pressure your enemy starting at turn one you are in for a hard match.

[Ectoplasm]

Taking aggressive mulligans is vital for Goblins. If you can't pressure your enemy starting at turn one you are in for a hard match.

That's simply not true. Sure, pressure is good but you can keep hands that are heavy on disruption (ports, wastelands, removal) and have a wonderful midgame with ringleaders and matrons.

I'd call myself an experienced goblins player and of course I'll admit the fast and sick hands are the best (something like lackey, mogg fanatic/weirding, warchief/ringleader/SGC and a couple land) but usually my criteria are: any relevant plays like warchief into piledriver? A nice curve (something to do for some turns)? And a way to refill is always nice. A hand like vial, warchief, matron might look like shit but if it contains 2 wastelands and 2 coloured lands it can seriously demolish your opponent, without actually bashing with any men for a few turns.

[Avatara]

That's simply not true. Sure, pressure is good but you can keep hands that are heavy on disruption (ports, wastelands, removal) and have a wonderful midgame with ringleaders and matrons.

I'd call myself an experienced goblins player and of course I'll admit the fast and sick hands are the best (something like lackey, mogg fanatic/weirding, warchief/ringleader/SGC and a couple land) but usually my criteria are: any relevant plays like warchief into piledriver? A nice curve (something to do for some turns)? And a way to refill is always nice. A hand like vial, warchief, matron might look like shit but if it contains 2 wastelands and 2 coloured lands it can seriously demolish your opponent, without actually bashing with any men for a few turns.

We agree .

Vial + (2)Wasteland = pressure. Remove Vial from that hand and it's unlikely that you will play with that hand. As I said... you want either Lackey or Vial in your opening hand (+enough lands and threats to drop). If you let your opponent goldfish the first turns it's very likely that you wont even see the wonderful mid game.

[FoulQ]

What if you remove wastelands from the hand? I just might still keep a hand of vial + warchief + matron + 4 colored lands against some decks.

[ScatmanX]

Maybe thats also right. Vial owns agains't so many decks, that a hand with 1 is keepable in lots of ocasions...

[Ectoplasm]

Even if you remove the wastelands it's a solid hand, since matron and warchief pretty much assure you're going to be in a good position when they both resolve and heaven knows what the top of your deck might bring.
Thing I'm trying to say is, it's not going to give you a flying start filled with balls to the wall pressure but a VERY solid buildup, granted you're not playing against combo and survive to turn 3.
Edit: People seem to forget that goblins is one of the strongest midgame decks in Legacy still, just imagine what would happen when you drop a warchief, vial the matron next turn, find a ringleader and resolve it with an active warchief/vial in play. Hordes of angry men at your disposal.

[revenge_inc]

Alright people, please enlighten me:
Why do you find Stingscourger and Warren Weirding to be so good?

[Eldariel]

Alright people, please enlighten me:
Why do you find Stingscourger and Warren Weirding to be so good?

Tarmogoyf/Tombstalker/Dreadnought/whatever the hell that is fcking huge kills you before you can get your card advantage engines online, and acts as a Wall of the Seinä (...a "Wall of the Wall"? - Nihil, amused) against all your crap if you're attacking while at it. Getting rid of those things before they kill you, and getting through for damage are both quite in synch with the deck's goals, and with how many Tarmogoyfs, Tombstalkers and other shitpiles float around, having cheap "get rid of X regardless of how big it is"-effects handy is necessary. Stingscourger has the additional benefit of blocking next turn, making it a great card to buy time for your Big Guns with. Oh, and both are Goblins, which is obviously a huge boon in a deck called "Goblins".

[P-AiR]

Hey well how about Mutavault?

Is there a real big reason to run those instead of mishra's factory besides the changeling ability?

Unlike the Merfolk I don't find goblins to gain too much of an advantage from the mutavaults.

[Eldariel]

Hey well how about Mutavault?

Is there a real big reason to run those instead of mishra's factory besides the changeling ability?

Unlike the Merfolk I don't find goblins to gain too much of an advantage from the mutavaults.

Not being an artifact is a rather relevant benefit when many people bring arti removal as they can't win vs. active Vial, and thus might have dead cards post-board when you don't have the Vial. More importantly, it goes great with Piledriver, Siege-Gang (especially handy vs. Moat-type effects when you just need a guy or few more to sacrifice FTW but have trouble resolving spells anymore), Gempalm and has some benefits being run alongside Warchief.

Certainly not as big as being a Merfolk - Goblins' tribal effects mostly deal with the library. Still, it's a big enough benefit to outweigh the self-buff Factory offers (which would rarely be useful due to your mana expediture and rarely trying to kill big guys by blocking them) alongside being a non-artifact.

[P-AiR]

Thanks for the insightful reply.

I was wondering in your opinion how much would they roughly cost after it rotates out of standard?

I highly doubt it would constantly cost around 20 something even when it's only playable in extended/legacy.

I want to figure out if I should find a set now or would it be more worthit to wait a couple months to buy it when it's rotated out of standard.

[GreenOne]

I want to figure out if I should find a set now or would it be more worthit to wait a couple months to buy it when it's rotated out of standard.

My rule of thumb is "Always wait".

Certainly not as big as being a Merfolk - Goblins' tribal effects mostly deal with the library. Still, it's a big enough benefit to outweigh the self-buff Factory offers (which would rarely be useful due to your mana expediture and rarely trying to kill big guys by blocking them) alongside being a non-artifact.

It's also good against other tribal decks, like merfolk or elves, getting the +1/+1 and landwalk ability from Champion and Lord.

[Avatara]

Alright people, please enlighten me:
Why do you find Stingscourger and Warren Weirding to be so good?

I was playing against eva green the other day... he knew I was playing goblins after I ran over him the first game. In game two he decided to play safe by fetching basic swamps. His third drop was a Bayou and a Goyf. I untap, Vial in Stingscourger to bounce his Goyf... drop a Wasteland and remove his Bayou. Took him a full 3 turns to get that Goyf out into play again. By than I had already played a Ringleader grabbing me Boartusk Liege and Siege-Gang Commander.

Like the people mentioned above... Stingscourger is fully synergetic.

Same counts for mutavault. Waiting for your vial to hit 3 mana? Why not attack with a Mutavault and a hardcast Piledriver in the meantime? The worse thing that will happen is that your opponent will keep his blocker behind, giving you more time to build up.

[The Grim Reaper]

Recently placed 5th in a 47 man German tournament with this list and would like to discuss a few things:

// Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
3 [MM] Rishadan Port
3 [LRW] Mountain (4)
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
3 [B] Badlands
3 [B] Taiga

// Creatures
3 [EVG] Mogg Fanatic
4 [FNM] Goblin Warchief
1 [LRW] Wort, Boggart Auntie
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
2 [SC] Siege-Gang Commander
4 [US] Goblin Matron
4 [FNM] Goblin Ringleader
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
2 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
1 [ON] Goblin Pyromancer
1 [GP] Tin Street Hooligan

// Spells
3 [MOR] Warren Weirding
4 [DS] AEther Vial

Discussion Points:

1. Goblin Pyromancer:

Everyone should be running this guy. He won me so many games over the course of a few tournaments its silly. If you have 5 damage on the table and your opponent taps out feeling safe at 18 life, the look on their face is priceless when you vial Pyromancer in. He also helps win standstill games against untapped goyfs. Simply amazing.

2. Tin-Street Hooligan:

I have never once destroyed an artifact with this card in all the time I've been playing it. The reasons for this are as follows:
- No artifacts in play when I draw him.
- There is an artifact in play, but I have a Warchief in play.
- There is an artifact in play, but I don't have him or a Matron.
- There is an artifact in play, but I don't have a Taiga + Red source.
- Doesn't work with Vial

I've been extremely disappointed with Tin-Street Hooligan. Of course I've also used Tinkerer in the past but Tinkerer always feels too slow. I'm tempted to remove artifact removal all together from the main deck and just run 1 Goblin/4 Grips side. What do you think regarding this slot?

3. Wort:

This card has been pretty decent each time I've tutored or played it. Recurring Weirdings has won me countless fatty wars and I don't think many people have an issue with running 1 main deck.

4. Mogg Fanatic:

Not horrible, but not good either. I side Fanatic out almost every game for either Grips or Relics. I'm thinking I might want to run one of those cards in its place. I know this topic has been done to death and I know there are no better 1 drops save Lackey. I am waiting for Wizards to print another good 1cc and 2cc goblin! What should be run in this slot?

5. No Sharpshooter:

I've never been able to find Sharpshooter when he mattered, and the 3cc slot is already so saturated. I keep one in the board for things like Merfolk/Elves/Tokens/Moat. Any strong opinions on Sharpshooter?

6. Weirding/Incinerator 3/2 Split:

Honestly I've been considering going 4/1 or 4/2 with this. Incinerators have been pretty lackluster but will occasionally take out a Factory or so. 3/2 Has been alright so far.

7. Earwig Squad

Currently I am running 2 in the sideboard to wreck things like Loam decks or decks with few win conditions. I feel like its just a bad siege gang when I run it main deck. When a siege-gang comes into play, opponents cringe and you can go from losing to winning. The same can not always be said about Earwig Squad, though of course he can be played for 3 (saturated slot).

8. Sideboard:

Currently running this:

4x Grip
4x Relic
2x Earwig
1x Tinkerer
1x Weirding
1x Gaea's Blessing (Tech?)
1x Sharpshooter
1x Undecided

Combo Hate: Should we bother with it or just give in? With all the Painter running around I thought Blessing would be a nice card as a one of.

Please let me know your thoughts - any input is greatly appreciated! :)

[kabal]

With all the Painter running around I thought Blessing would be a nice card as a one of.

Really?? I almost never see Painter/Grindstone.DEC in top 8 in any lists posted here or at deckcheck.net as it pertains to German tournaments.

[The Grim Reaper]

Really?? I almost never see Painter/Grindstone.DEC in top 8 in any lists posted here or at deckcheck.net as it pertains to German tournaments.

Some guy top 8ed with a Painter/Grindstone variant the last few months IIRC. Is it really that bad to devote 1 sideboard slot to protect yourself from a deadly combo? Of course I am not insinuating that they cannot win through Blessing, but it doesn't hurt, that's for sure.

[P-AiR]

Goblin Pyromancer has always been appealing to me since I could always cast Weirding or cycle Gempalm Incinerator to kill it so my goblins would not die from it's sac all goblins effect.

I was wondering when can you vial in the pyromancer?

Can you do this after you've declared blockers?


Thanks

[leander?]

Sure you can. The damage is calculated after the blockers are declared. And in between you can do stuff.

[Tacosnape]

I've been having a -lot- of luck recently with an RB list that runs 4 Frogtosser Banneret. I've completely changed my stance on this card. The tempo boost you get from cost-reducing spells by 2-3 is incredible.

As such, I have to cut Port. Three of Port's best justifications for inclusions are:

1. Stalling for time while you make land drops.
2. Giving you something additional to do on turn 2.
3. Paying for the colorless costs in most of your goblins.

Frogtosser Banneret eliminates the need for Port by:

1. Making your things cost less instead.
2. Being a 2-drop.
3. Makes a lot of your Goblins cost less or no colorless.

My Current List is:

3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Badlands
4 Auntie's Hovel
4 Mountain
4 Wasteland

4 Aether Vial
4 Warren Weirding

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Frogtosser Banneret
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matronn
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Siege-Gang Commander
3 Goblin Piledriver
2 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Mogg Fanatic

SB:
4 Pyrokinesis
4 Duress
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Pithing Needle
2 Gempalm Incinerator

In recent testing, I've come out even or better against Stax, Enchantress, Countertop, Merfolk, and whatever that BGW Rock/Deadguy hybrid from the GP Chicago T8 was called. Got my ass handed to me by Storm Combo and Zoo.

So let's discuss that for a second. Does anyone have any sort of plan on how not to get slaughtered by Zoo? I tried Chalice in SB to help against both Storm and Zoo, but every time I drop a Chalice, they drop a Pridemage, swing at my face, then eat the thing. Pyrokinesis doesn't help either, as Ape and Nacatl tend to have toughness 3, making 2 for 1's nigh impossible. The best thing I can do with Kinesis is try to eat a low-end Goyf or a Thoctar and buy time.

What kills me is turn one Ape/Nacatl, turn two Bolt/Second 1-drop, turn three Chain/Goyf, things like that, spiralling me into a tempo loop I can't recover from. I'm open to suggestions from Goblins or Zoo players alike.

[P-AiR]

Sure you can. The damage is calculated after the blockers are declared. And in between you can do stuff.

But how is that when players declare blockers we can't in response "tap that blocker"?


Thanks