I just run a full 4/4, and call it a day. You can always discard spares. The best cards in the deck are probably Hymn to Tourach, Pox, Duress, Smallpox, in that order.Originally Posted by mujadaddy
I'm running 4 smallpox, 2 pox at the moment. I'm starting to think like you, though. I wonder if 4 pox, 2 smallpox would be the way to go. (just wondering publiclyMy reasoning is partially to do with spell snare running around, not to mention counterbalance...)
re: Nether Spirit -- nevermind -- I use Tombstalkers as three of my kill conditions. So I can't really "manage" to use NinjaSpirit, as I might have a creature in the yard (although, more often he's RFG from StP)
As far as Nether Spirit goes, I find he synergies more than conflicts with Tombstalker. He allows you to Blood/Pox/Smallpox with Tombstalker out, holds the line while Tombstalker swings in, and Tombstalker's later copies can clear their predecessors and redundant Nether Spirits. Most importantly, Nether Spirit is never bad. At best, he's an excellent utility player and blocker breaking the symmetry of Pox or Smallpox. At worst, he's another guy in the yard powering out the next Tombstalker (and you would have ended up discarding something else to that Pox or Smallpox anyway).
Nether spirit is never bad. But its never excellent either. I doubt that Nether Spirit would actually swing a losing game to the other direction. My experience with it is that it just solves small problems (drawing a smallpox with a tombstalker out) instead of addressing the deck's major flaws (a timely win con...and no 4 tombstalker is not always enough).
Nether spirit is still on my list. But that's just because there's no other better alternative.
Seems like I keep getting raped by Tormod's Crypt and Relic of Progenitus. I'm now testing a build that is much less graveyard dependent.
4 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn
4 Innocent Blood
4 Smallpox
4 Pox
2 Tombstalkers
2 Nyxathid
2 Syphon Life
4 Bitterblossom
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
3 Urborg, ToY
1 Tomb of Urami
14 Swamp
Heavy discard oriented to fight combo, which helps make Nyxathid more dangerous. Bitterblossom is cheap and can just win after a Pox. A couple Syphon Life to help offset Bitterblossom, which can potentially give you 2 additional turns of flying beatdown per casting. And just 2 Tombstalkers to acknowledge the graveyard hate that seems to be getting me down.
Thoughts on this maindeck?
Phaedrus
Nether spirit actually didn't make the cut this time around in reshaping my pox deck, sadly. Also trying it without the Dark Rituals. Seems like it will run a long game.
Also, I'm keeping my Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, in, along with 4 wastes and 4 factories. We'll see how it goes. Testing tonight, but no tournaments in my area for a while.
I just don't like that card...not for legacy pox. I don't think we can afford the life hits. This being said having never run that card myself and running a crucible pox build.
I've moved on from Nether Spirit. Tombstalker, of course, influenced this decision, but the "never bad, never great" was the main motivator.
What does Nether Spirit do? A little card advantage. A little blocking. A little attacking.
Card advantage: It is my opinion that 2-3 Phyrexian Arena solves this problem. True, it puts YOU on a clock, but it's on the curve and it shortens the top-deck-wait by a Factor of Two. Somebody upthread pointed out that Pox NEVER draws for time.
Blocking: Ok, it's actually good at this role. But if we have a Blocking Problem, that means there is a creature we need to kill, doesn't it? Or even too many creatures to kill. Some builds go nuts with Innocent Blood, Diabolic Edicts, or even Thoughtseize to overemphasize the creature problem, yet from time to time creatures are going to hit the board.has the widest variety of ways, in my opinion, to handle enemy creatures, so this isn't the worst problem that faces the Pox deck.
Attacking: Glacial. 2 points every other turn. Landstill does more than that. Pox is also looking for "a timely win con" isn't it? The reason the deck is looking is because Pox can't control the game state forever-- it has to wipe the board, then rush headlong before the opponent can re-establish himself. Nether Spirit doesn't do that.
In review: Nether Spirit is a decent blocker, and doesn't take up your draw step or 3 mana to do it.
The only thing I've suggested here is 2-3 Phyrexian Arena. They cost the same. Over the same amount of time, it does the same amount of damage to YOU as the Spirit could to the opponent. It also requires 3 mana, but only once. But doesn't the extra card sound nice? Every turn? Instead of a summoning-sick 2/2 every turn, you get the next card in your deck, which, if you build the deck right, is wayyyy better.
Right?
(My Pox deck runs more win-cons that the typical Pox deck, so getting them into my hand quickly is a good thing. Your mileage may vary.)
EDIT: Woah, multiple posts while I was typing that up.Care to share?
I agree that Bitterblossom is subpar -- you get 1/1s, and you also Pox, so it's tough to get back to damage parity with your opponent. I'm addressing it because I just advocated a card that cost 1 more but does the same 1 damage. I think, and again this is just my opinion, that drawing into more cards is strictly better than a free 1/1 flyer.
I dislike Nyaxthid, even with all that discard. It's the opposite of dealing with a combo player. Do you think you could sub it with 2 Phyrexian Totems, maybe? Try it out at least.
I am becoming a fan of Syphon Life, though. So, in all, here's my recommendation:
-2 Nyaxthid, +2 Phy Totem
-4 Bitterblossom, +2-3 Crucible of Worlds, +1-2 Phyrexian Arena
Try that for a while, see if you like it. With the Syphon Life, Wasteland & Mishra's Factory, Crucibles make a ton of sense.
I actually considered using Skeletal Scrying (clashes with 'stalker) and played with Night's Whisper about a year ago and never really liked the way they played out. Phyrexian arena sounds good in theory but it may suffer the "doing too little too late" symptom. Minus dark ritual, the earliest it can come down is turn 3 and will only start netting you cards at turn 5. Though getting one out when both you and you're opponent are in topdeck mode sounds pretty sweet.
If you are going to bring in arenas, then the logical choice would be to go down on the copies of big poxes...a trend that most people in this forum seem to be following. I just might test out this arena build.
EDIT: I too don't like bitterblossom in pox. It's a net lifeloss for an effect that is too easy to race/answer. Ironically, bitterblossom has always been bad news for pox, basing on the games i played against it.
EDIT2: If you're going to try out Syphon Life, I would advise against more than 2 copies. Hell, I think 1 is enough. The card can't answer problematic creatures which means it's pure win con; it can't be used for board control.
I like the Totem substitution, and will definitely try that. Not so crazy about the Crucible recommendation, since I'm explicitly trying to move away from graveyard dependency. If you were going to avoid GY-based strategies, what would you use in place of Bitterblossom? (other than Arena...)
Phaedrus
I must defend Bitterblossom!
a) compared to Phyrexian Arena: This are two different slots.
Phyrexian Arena fits in the Crucible-Slot, because it's an utilitycard. While Crucible allows you recurring Wasteland and Cabal Pit, Arena will draw you removal, lands or threats, but without the possibilty to decide, what to get. On the other hand, Crucible is graveyard-dependant.
b) ok, even really compared with Phyrexian Arena...
Phyrexian Arena (3 mana required): Lose 1 life and draw a random card... You must pay the full cost to play this card.
Bitterblossom (2 mana required): Lose 1 life and put a 1/1 flying into play...
And don't forget: 1/1's can chumpblock, sometimes stall a Confidant or other things and a turn 1 Mox+Swamp -> Bitterblossom is a really good threat in early game.
Ok, and now a crazy action:
I am a fan of combinating the recursion of Nether Spirit, Bitterblossom and Crucible with Smokestack. It kills permanents, so even Artifacts and Enchantments or other cards. Yes, it's slow, but it's a lock - it's the lategame bomb that can seal the game.
Another thing: You don't like lifeloss and you like lifegain? And you play Pox? Then play 1-2 Sheltered Valley. The card is really good, because you will never have more then 3 lands and with 3-4 Tombs of Yawgmoth, the colourless mana can be managed.
I dumped Night's Whisper long time gone... only nets you one card. Skeletal Scrying? "X" in Pox is baaaad
@Eternaldarkness: Dark Ritual and Phyrexian Arena <3 each other very, very much. Only when you're way, way behind does Arena become a bad topdeck -- but if the opponent's deck is slow, it's not the worst thing you could see! ...also, if you note my earlier comment, I *had* gone down to 2 bigPox, but that was well before I put in the Arenas (Three, btw.)
Interestingly enough, Crucible, Syphon Life, and Phyrexian Arena all together shore up just about every complaint that people have about the deck.
Now, Phaedrus:
I built my Pox deck to ignore the graveyard... for the most part. However, there's a difference between relying on the graveyard and exploiting it in a limited fashion. You say you're moving away from GY dependency, but there are 2 Syphon Life's in your deck, so you haven't moved completely away.
All you need to do is not lean on the GY as your dominant strategy. Running 3 Crucibles? Probably too many slots devoted to the GY, especially as Crucible doesn't kill the opponent directly. One Crucible? "Surprise! I can recur my lands. Bet you didn't know that."
If you're not sold on Arena, but you want to replace Bitterblossom as a slot... hm, let's think about this...
You can either stick 2-3 Nyaxthid's back in (which I don't really like) to run alongside the Totems and 1-2 Crucibles (which you SHOULD run, especially w/ Tomb of Urami, Wastes, Factories)... or go old school and run 2-3 Hypnotic Specters ... except those have synergy with Nyaxthid... Powder Keg, maybe?
EDIT: Hey, more posts:And a 1/1 Flyer for zero mana shores up which weakness of the Pox deck? I'm genuinely curious as to with what people think 'Blossom helps.
So you're keeping Smokestack at one counter? Smokestack is an EARLY GAME bomb in a deck that's made for it. Pox+Smallpox are mini-smokestacks, with discard & creature-kill built in. Pox has enough symmetric destruction to worry about fitting in the "Spirit-Blossom-Stax Lock," I think.
The thing with Smokestack is, that the card seal the game. I want to repeat this, because this is an important factor: Decks play Sensei's Divining Top, Brainstorm, Ponder and so on... This cards search for the cards the player need, so when both players enters topdeckmodus, it's really annoying if the opponent can recover faster than you.
-I really like the idea of Tomb of Urami if you're running Crucible, although (as with a lot of threats suggested so far) it again lets Deed and EE shit in your cornflakes, so I'd run one at most.
-I've beaten people in Legacy who run Bitterblossom simply by dropping an Engineered Plague and parrying for a while. Between all the low-end boardsweep and the prevalence of Plague (given that Elves and Goblins are currently solid and sort of common), Bitterblossoms seems bad even if it would fix a problem.
-Crucible is a card your opponent has to deal with, or their chances of winning plummet. Why would you not run it on the assumption that your opponent is going to deal with it? It's too powerful to just not run. Especially since, if you drop it game one, your opponent might side artifact removal, and then you can count on them having narrow cards in hand. Imagine, for instance, playing against Thresh. Thresh needs to board in Grip so you don't Waste-lock them, but then they have to take out, I don't know, StP or Bob or something. I've never been privy to my opponents' sideboarding plans, so I'm not sure what they'd take out, but the point is that you have to run stuff that's unequivocally good maindeck in Legacy, so you're helping yourself by limiting their options when you force them to board in Grip.
This isn't so much a reactive deck. You want to step right up and grab hold of the game. Crucible is a good way to do that.
Last edited by coraz86; 05-22-2009 at 06:16 PM. Reason: I'm so jaded by Krosan Grip that other spot removal has escaped my memory
There's really only one good reason to play Bitterblossom.
And that is to play it alongside Nether Spirit and Contamination.
In all other situations, it simply does too little, costs you too much life and has poor synergy with your own Poxes.
Bitterblossom.. 1/1 flier chump blockers in Pox. My thoughts, just seems a little dangerous. Your life's gonna drop below 10 really quickly in this deck, on top of that you're talkin bout running phyrex arenas would make me nervous. Pox kills your critters too.. you run 8 and prolly plan on using them a lot, so its like you lose 5 life and only 2-3 of them get to remain in play. Seems sorta like it cancels out with Pox, maybe explain I could be missing the strat
But it still costs you permanents.
Has anyone tried Cabal Coffers? Especially in builds running Crucible (which would negate it's tendency to be Wasted)? Seems to me the deck could get away with running two.
That would allow a little more flexibility in choosing a finisher, since even post-Pox one could reliably expect to untap and have five or six mana (if you hit a land drop or have Urborg in play). It also would allow you to slide Decree of Pain somewhere into the list (main or SB), which helps the Landstil matchup and some of the fast aggro matchups (Elves and Goblins in particular).
Yep, but it would be interesting to pair smokestack alongside...
Nether Spirit
Bitterblossom
Contamination
Crucible of World + Mishra's Factory + Wasteland
would be a very different deck though.
Pox tries to function on 3 lands. Traditionally, that has tied down the finishers to cheap and/or 'immune' cards.
I tried to put Drain Life in, but it was too slow, even as a 1-of. I hardly ever got to cast it for more than 3 in a non-winmore situation. For coffers, your best case scenario is something like 3 lands, 1 Urborg, 1 coffer. Tap 2, tap coffers, 5 black mana, tap the last 2, seven.
What would you do with that? I'm fishing for responses, not confrontation--I really want to know what "ought to" be done with that 7 mana.
Exactly. This deck doesn't do anything with that mana at that stage in the game, that's the point. You run a low mana curve, low draw. This deck with more land would either have to have a faster draw, or higher mana curve.. both are a tough balance. Unless you're just gunning for Lord of the Pit for some reason, but that's not how the deck works and in most cases you'll have just 2-3 swamps out, draw cabal coffers, and it'll do absolutely nothing but get in the way. Just another land to sac to Pox
If you want to come up with some finishers, well.. you're looking 5cc and lower to be realistic. Lets generate a list of ideal finishers heh, for shi*s and giggles:
- phyrexian totem (2B, 5/5 trample nuf said)
- Mishra's Factory/s (get 2-4 out, you've got 3/3 -- 5/5 lil exhalted facs swinging lol)
- Tombstalker (5/5 flyer. Eats grave, to play cheap. But gd its worthit lol)
- Syphon Life (slow but efficient engine, turns every land draw into a weapon)
- Soul Feast (3BB, opponent loses 4 life you gain 4. 8 life threshold for 5 mana makes it the most dramatic spell in the game for its cost)
- Nyxathid (1BB, potentially 7/7 creature! downside, no trample and fighting opponents draw mitigate it, but yikes at potential for its cost! :)
- exhume/reanimate (reanimate although cheapers & allows to steal opponent, may be too dangerous to play in deck. I'd only use to combo off, like using hellkite overlord or something as discard outlet. This deck can't really guarantee that consistency but good ideas if someone found a way, atm reanimator just does it hella better lol)
- Ritual of the machine (2BB, control magic 4 black, but with a small cost. This would be more of a defensive finisher, but stealing their goyf/flier's a good way to win)
- Ashen Powder (2BB, same ideal but using opponents GY to steal)
- Kaervek's Spite (BBB, yup.. this was like, old school "suicide Pox" finisher)
- Mortivore (2BB, another badass. With all the destruction he has potential, but I'm not sure he's really meant for this deck)
- Yukora (Juzam.. just no drawbacks really. Bout it, no trample though makes it not the best:/)
- Guiltfeeder (3BB, 0/4 Fear. attacks and isn't blocked opponent loses 1 life for each card in graveyard. Cost & slowness are only drawback otherwise this guys awesome, he owns EDH 4 sure)
- Liliana Vess (3BB, god if she only cost 3 that'd rule.. almost work well with Nyxathid. Her tutor ability is the real power..Too slow, too late though)
- Death Cloud (XBBB, you got mana and crucible, this card would really make them pay)
- Profane Command (XBB, Lots of way you could do this, maybe make them lose life and return nyxathid to play, etc.)
Bah I'd think of more but I'm friggin tired lol. Gots to get to bed, lates!
if youre playing syphon life, you should play crucible to complement it and make those pitched lands useful, pitch a waste, play the spell, play the waste and own a land, maybe an animated one.
factorys are a must, theyre the backbone of the deck and they do win games. also works well with crucible for infinite blockage.
i really like negator totem. not as a finisher, but more along the lines as you play it first turn with rit, 2nd turn pox and you still have a 2nd black source to play shit the next turn, 3 if you have another land (not saying this is the best play for it pending on what else is in your hand or what youre up against). additional mana sources rock. i wouldnt play a full set, prolly 2-3
im not sure what everyone elses view is on extirpate. i think it should be a 2 of. 2 is the best number because its good early with a good hymn or a thoughtsieze. then late game can take out remaining wincons that are left.
chimeric idol is another great beater which should be played. not having enough mana something or tapping out to play stuff. works well with negator totem if you have them both up, swing for 8 sounds goood for me.
i see no reason why tombstalker cant be the finisher for this deck. late game 5/5 just owns, then combined with factory / idol / negator beats. hell, after 1 pox its roughly a 2 turn clock pending how many fetches they played or if you layed on any other beats.
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