[DTB] Vial Goblins

[ScatmanX]

Meekstone & Uphill Battle would take too much SB space for a so-so combo, so it isn´t worth it.

@1maarten1:
I guess there are lot's of players that think that RB is superior, like me and Taco for instance. There are also lots of players that prefer the RG or RGB build, like Nick. It's a matter of how you play the deck, and what you're pretending to play agins't. There is no such thing as the best color configuration.

[FoulQ]

No version is strictly superior than another, in my opinion. It's all metagame consideration.

Why play RG?
1) Reliable answer to plague.
2) TSH is freaking ridiculous. Play with it for a while, in multiples. Or play 1 like most people.
3) Still get to play port and most sideboard options (RBG has troubles with port sometimes)
4) Stingscourger can replace weirding in many situations.

Black gives weirding and wort, maybe some sideboard options like leyline and perish. Rg is fairly close to Monored in most builds. I am personally playing Rbg right now. But at big events you don't want to lose to wasteland and so forth, so I would play Rg or Rb at a major event like GP: Chicago. Rg answers many of the random decks that can appear with grips, while Rb answers some of the most popular decks but somewhat more narrowly. Plus since there are so many goblins at major events, people will be packing plagues, which means you probably should be packing grips, as it is the #1 answer to plague.

[1maarten1]

Ok, thanks! I think im going to start testing a Rg list. Can someone gimme a nice Rg list with sideboard so i can start testing with it??

thanks, Maarten

[Nessaja]

Goblins doesn't need black for powerful effects, mono builds already offer a lot of power. Do you need more power then mono red builds offer, effectively making your strategy weaker as well because you suddenly need nonbasics? Green is considered a superior splash because it deals with goblins biggest problem, enchantments.

[jjjoness']

Goblins doesn't need black for powerful effects, mono builds already offer a lot of power. Do you need more power then mono red builds offer, effectively making your strategy weaker as well because you suddenly need nonbasics? Green is considered a superior splash because it deals with goblins biggest problem, enchantments.

Enchantments can be a problem, but besides Moat, Humility and Engineered Plague (which don't seem to see a lot of play) there's not much to fear. Imho freakin Wall of Goyf is a bigger problem than most enchantments.
But of course that's also a real meta choice.

[Ectoplasm]

Goblins doesn't need black for powerful effects, mono builds already offer a lot of power. Do you need more power then mono red builds offer, effectively making your strategy weaker as well because you suddenly need nonbasics? Green is considered a superior splash because it deals with goblins biggest problem, enchantments.

Black solves Tarmogoyf.

What to splash is a meta-choice, but if you're going into an unknown meta (any semibig tournament) you'll most likely need the weirdings.

[Nessaja]

You don't need black to deal with Tarmogoyf. Weirding doesn't "solve" Tarmogoyf at all. It's more a solve for Dreadnought then anything.

And while it's true that Moat and Humility don't see a lot of play (Landstill, White Stax and Mighty Quinn use one or the other) there's still Propaganda/Ghostly Prison and Engineered Plague which is in every damn sideboard eversince Merfolks got populair too. And then there's the odd Enchantress build which has Solitary Confinement as well as the above.

It's not so much that those cards are all over the place, it's that Goblins effectively can't do anything when they hit the table where-as goblins has all the tools needed in mono red to deal with goyf.

[Berzerked]

Actually the main reason RB is my favorite right now is not only because of Wierding (Stingscourger is about even in my books. They both are great and suck in about the same number of situations.), but because of 3x Thoughtseize MD, with 4x Therapy in the board.
Ya, blah blah blah, Ringleader, whatever. In testing, Thoughtseize has been amazing. A lot of what Goblins hates to see is 3cc+, which Seize answers preemptively (not to mention grabbing Goyf early). And in a lot of cases your opponent will either hold back answers waiting a little while for you to overextend, or not be able to play them because of Waste/Port shenanigans. These are more scenarios where Seize is great.
Post board, the amount of discard (especially the Therapies) are just savage. Also, with the meta becoming generally slower and more control oriented, I have not missed the fact that Seize doesn't attack.

Just my 2 cents.

[Ectoplasm]

You don't need black to deal with Tarmogoyf. Weirding doesn't "solve" Tarmogoyf at all. It's more a solve for Dreadnought then anything.

And while it's true that Moat and Humility don't see a lot of play (Landstill, White Stax and Mighty Quinn use one or the other) there's still Propaganda/Ghostly Prison and Engineered Plague which is in every damn sideboard eversince Merfolks got populair too. And then there's the odd Enchantress build which has Solitary Confinement as well as the above.

It's not so much that those cards are all over the place, it's that Goblins effectively can't do anything when they hit the table where-as goblins has all the tools needed in mono red to deal with goyf.

So? Play RGB then :D You can still sideboard relics

[Tacosnape]

FWIW, Black has a pretty good enchantress matchup compared to RG. Grip's nice on paper, but Sterling Grove shuts it off, and they have way more targets than you can Grip away. Warren Weirding does what nothing else does, however, in that it can at least get rid of Argothian Enchantress. Combined with discard from the sideboard, it gives you a chance to shut the opponent off of their draw, which makes the match far more manageable.

If Enchantress doesn't have draw, it doesn't really have Solitary Confinement either. And for the attack prevention cards, Siege-Gang Commander and Sharpshooter (If you run it) give you reach to circumvent this.

I'll never go back away from black after testing Frogtosser Banneret, though. Seriously might be the most unfairly dismissed card ever.

[no_chi]

Hi. Long time lurker, first time poster.

Here's the Rgb Goblins list I have been using for several tourneys now:

3 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port
4 Mountain
4 Badlands
2 Taiga

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie

4 Aether Vial
2 Warren Weirding

SB:
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Krosan Grip
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Shattering Spree
2 Earwig Squad
1 Warren Weirding

The SB is never constant, just what I think may be useful depending on what decks I see. The meta here is mostly BG(w) Rock, some burn, some aggro/control, and very little combo. If I were to make changes, I would do the following:

maindeck:
-1 Gempalm Incinerator
-1 Tin Street Hooligan
+2 Warren Weirding

sideboard:
-3 Shattering Spree
-1 Warren Weirding
+1 Earwig Squad
+2 Tranquil Domain
+1 Tin Street Hooligan

The meta is usually random, but I expect lots of black decks packing Plagues, and other decks packing enchantment hate (Sphere of Law, CoP:Red, Chill). Any suggestions on the maindeck and SB? Have the Frogtossers and Squads maindeck worked? What decks are they good against?

Thanks!

[4eak]

@ Tacosnape

I'll never go back away from black after testing Frogtosser Banneret, though. Seriously might be the most unfairly dismissed card ever.

It is definitely a good card, but Goblins is already a pretty tight list. I'd definitely run the card if it lowered the cost by instead of or added haste to all. At the moment, I'm just not convinced by the card.




peace,
4eak

[HedleyKow]

Nice to see more people running Frogtosser. I've been running him since he was released, but haven't had much success convincing others to run him.

My logic was, goblins is so much better with a way to play stuff for less in play, like an active vial/warchief/lackey than it is without one. So, when given the opportunity to add more cards of that nature, why wouldn't you? Frogtosser acts like warchief #5-8, while also filling in the barren two drop slot.

Also, the haste is so nice with piledriver. A common play is turn 2 piledriver followed by turn 3 frogtosser; or double frogtosser, or frogtosser+weirding. And, another added benefit is, running frogtosser makes it more feasible to play larger numbers of Siege-Gang Commander. Currently I'm running 4 SGC, and 3-4 Frogtossers.

[FoulQ]

Damn you people. I might have to retest frogtosser. I'm just not convinced with him mainly because he does nothing on his own and costs B instead of R (duh). But now I have no choice.

[no_chi]

If Frogtossers would be included maindeck, what should be removed? Fanatics? Gempalms? And how should the manabase look then?

I've had experience with Frogtossers, but in Extended Goblins last season. It allowed very explosive turns 3-4, winning a turn faster perhaps. I have yet to test them in Legacy.

[The Grim Reaper]

If Frogtossers would be included maindeck, what should be removed? Fanatics? Gempalms? And how should the manabase look then?

I've had experience with Frogtossers, but in Extended Goblins last season. It allowed very explosive turns 3-4, winning a turn faster perhaps. I have yet to test them in Legacy.

I replaced 3 Fanatics and 1 Tin-Street Hooligan with the Frogtossers. Tin-Street + Frogtosser + Warchief = No Synergy. You can scroll up a bit to see my mana base, which works fine with this configuration. Mogg Fanatics have been a bit underwhelming for me, and Frogtossers have been great in testing. Dropping everything earlier past turn 2 is a significant boost to the deck's speed. 2 mana Ringleaders become common-place.

[scrumdogg]

FWIW, Black has a pretty good enchantress matchup compared to RG. Grip's nice on paper, but Sterling Grove shuts it off, and they have way more targets than you can Grip away. Warren Weirding does what nothing else does, however, in that it can at least get rid of Argothian Enchantress. Combined with discard from the sideboard, it gives you a chance to shut the opponent off of their draw, which makes the match far more manageable.

If Enchantress doesn't have draw, it doesn't really have Solitary Confinement either. And for the attack prevention cards, Siege-Gang Commander and Sharpshooter (If you run it) give you reach to circumvent this.

I'll never go back away from black after testing Frogtosser Banneret, though. Seriously might be the most unfairly dismissed card ever.

I can vouch for this from the other side. Played vs RGB Goblins with Enchantress last week Round 5, winner makes Top 4. Games 1 & 3, my Argothians get shanked, Goblins cheats things into play, and can't stabilize because my engine is crippled, I lose. I like the idea of Frogtosser & ditching Port, but Ports also kept me from trying to stabilize by tapping my best land (enchanted, off color, Serra's Sanctum) every upkeep in that Enchantress match-up. Admittedly, Enchantress isn't a common match-up, but being able to screw with a control deck's mana while still cheating guys into play, classic recipe for goblin success.

On to Zoo etc, have people considered EE in the sideboard? Even in the 2 color versions it seems fine, with access to 3 colors it has the ability to get stupid. And with 23-25 lands, dropping & blowing it early shouldn't be too difficult - either as a preventitive (they won't extend further into it) or as punishment for them utilizing their efficient mana curve. I haven't tested this yet, but with merfolk running rampant locally (including me lately >.>) I am getting the itch to try Goblins. Will post any results gathered.

[Tacosnape]

If you're re-testing Frogtosser, here's what I would advise you.

1. Don't run Port. 8 colorless adding lands and 8 colorless cost reducers do not synergize. I've in the last three days alone been played multiple Ringleaders for and Siege-Gangs for .

2. Don't run Tin-Street Hooligan. I haven't even begun to try piecing together a 3-color Frogtosser list, but as Grim Reaper just mentioned, 8 cost reducers and TSH suck. Can't believe I'm saying this, but Tinkerer might be the way to go.

3. Don't run more than 22 land. Frogtosser makes all the difference in the world here. You have sixteen ways in your deck to get a Siege-Gang commander in play without hitting five land.

4. Run four Weirding. That card gets a lot better midgame when it's continuously costing one mana.


@Scrumdogg: Explosives might be a decent Zoo idea. I've recently come to play this in a few odd decks (Including modern BW Deadguy) by thinking of it in my head as very often being a 1-drop. And incredible 1-drops are what Goblins seems to be needing the most. Explosives is also more versatile than all my other options, and with the splash of a singleton Plateau/Volcanic/Taiga I could be getting rid of Plague with them in R/B.

[coraz86]

Explosives also would help with the Dredge matchup if you're cutting Fanatics. It may even be better, since you have to time the Fanatic to try and maximize the number of Bridges you're removing, but you can just let the EE sit until they try and swing. (Of course, EE then isn't an option until turn two, but how often does Dredge honestly win on turn one?)

[Tacosnape]

Explosives also would help with the Dredge matchup if you're cutting Fanatics. It may even be better, since you have to time the Fanatic to try and maximize the number of Bridges you're removing, but you can just let the EE sit until they try and swing. (Of course, EE then isn't an option until turn two, but how often does Dredge honestly win on turn one?)

That's true. Turn one Relic or Fanatic + EE for 0 isn't a bad opener here. Not to mention that Pyrokinesis can eat Narcomoeba and Imp off the board.

I haven't cut Fanatic entirely. There's too many matches I love it (Survival, anything with Confidant, etc). But I'm only running a pair currently. Not sold as to exactly how I'm going to go in this regard.

Currently going to test the following list.

4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Badlands
1 Plateau
5 Mountain
4 Wasteland

4 Aether Vial
4 Warren Weirding

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Frogtosser Banneret
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Goblin Piledriver
3 Siege-Gang Commander
2 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Mogg Fanatic

SB:
4 Pyrokinesis
4 Engineered Explosives
4 Relic of Progenitus
3 Umezawa's Jitte/Duress/Needle/Something