@ Loxodon Baileyarch
Threads tend to have arguments inside them, even when you aren't there for a day. This one is about Aether Vial. Perhaps tomorrow will be about Lightning Helix.Haha i don't log on for a day and the thread turns into Aether Vial argumentdotthread.
This claim led you to a non sequitur. We aren't running Vial in place of Nacatl.I want to go, turn one Nacatl every game(exceptions of course), not turn one Aether Vial.
I can understand there is a price to pay for the topdeck, although even then, it can be an excellent card to resolve. But think about what card would have been in Aether Vial's place. Usually a 1cc creature that may have been dead or less useful against opposing blockers in the first place.It slows the deck down and is a dead topdeck
Are you purposely misconstruing the argument? Even if you are on topic, what evidence did you provide for Aether Vial slowing down the deck?But hey, i guess it comes down to whether or not you wanna make your deck slower? Or more well balanced??? Question mark?
Vial pays for your creatures, leaving your mana open to play burn and activated abilities. In goldfishing, Vial isn't really much slower at all. And when you are actually playing against an opponent which seeks to interact with you, Vial will often be pushing creatures into play in circumstances where you may not have been able to play and resolve them otherwise.
We should ask questions like:
How many one (and sometimes two) land hands would you have to mull where you otherwise wouldn't because of Aether Vial?
For those decks which have chosen to go 4 or 5 color (sacrificing mana stability for a greater range of cards, abusing stronger creatures like Confidant that otherwise aren't in color), how valuable is Aether Vial?
What games or matchups would you win more often because you had [card which may be replaced] instead of Vial, and vice versa?
What is to be gained from avoiding permission?
I'm arguing that Vial is a good card and is worth testing. It brings a lot more to table than some are willing to admit. Is it optimal, I'm not sure. It sounds pretty metagame and build dependent.
Your argument certainly hasn't clarified the issue though.
peace,
4eak
@ hungryLIKEALION: Wasteland in Zoo seems bad when you want to cast Nacatl, Ape, and sometimes Fireblast. I mean i can't say i've ever tested it or anything though. Also, your sn reminds me of a Black Mages song.
@Beserked: I'm honored you think this thread is mine, really. It's just, all this blurring with Goyf Sligh and now 8c Zoo lists is making my head hurt. I mean there was even a suggestion a few pages back about cutting green and red. Like wtf... I hope you understand what i'm getting at here haha. I agree with your last statement though.
@ Angry Troll: I would actually like to see land late game instead of Aether Vial, because it's usually in the form of a fetch land which thins my lands. And i mean let's be honest, if you get into the late game for too long you've lost anyway. Haha.
Dead or Alive, you're coming with me.
-Robocop-
I kept all the lands you'd normally have, and added the wastelands in a spell slot. They seem fine there so far, though occasionally I feel like another burn spell might be better. I might put lavamancer, isamaru, or a 2cc beater back in instead, but I haven't decided yet. I also kind of miss reckless charge, but I'm feeling better about cutting it now than I was when I did it.
That kind of attitude has been the bane of many would-be pros. It stifles innovation and prevents decks from getting better.Originally Posted by Loxodon Baileyarch
Have you even played with Aether Vial? You seem far to quick to dismiss because it's one of the best cards in the format and has been one of the defining cards of aggro decks since the birth of Legacy. The card was banned in extended because it's quite literally broken. It's a must answer spell that gives an aggro player inevitability that is hard to beat. The card doesn't slow you down anymore than a first turn Birds of Paradise slows you down; it allows you to play more and better threats out faster so that you can ensure the win that much quicker. Blue players are always burning a Force of Will, a random blue card and a point of life just to keep the card off of the table; something they would rarely if ever do for a Wild Nacatl. It's a format defining card that deserves the same respect as Tarmogoyf and Force of Will; it's that good.
I'm going to suggest Watchwolf if you want more pure beef. And Chain Lightning/Pte if you want spells. I wouldn't run PTE and Wasteland together though, but you probably knew that already haha.
Also, how can a 3of Wasteland be THAT good ya know? It doesn't help the decks gameplan at all, but it has the tendency to randomly fuck up decks. I still don't like it though. And if i ran KOTR i would run alot of fetches.
@ Artic Slicer: No i haven't played Vial before. What does that card do again? Isn't it like, cheat dudes into play?
Dead or Alive, you're coming with me.
-Robocop-
Well, i'm not saying it's THAT good, I'm just saying it's been useful so far. I've won a few games that I might not have won without it, and it hasn't really cost me any games yet, so I'm still playing around to see how much I like it. Like I said though, watchwolf or another burn spell could be better. or STP or PTE. I'm not sure yet. I'm gonna keep working on it and get back to the discussion when I've come to a conclusion.
Also, has anyone tried Anathemancer in a 4c list? I'm putting one together with him right now and am going to go test it out. I'll post my results in a bit.
---
K, tested it a little. It seems good, but I'm not convinced it's worth the splash. Here's the list I tried:
// Lands
1 [B] Volcanic Island
2 [B] Badlands
2 [U] Savannah
1 [A] Tropical Island
2 [R] Plateau
3 [A] Taiga
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
// Creatures
4 [ARB] Anathemancer
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [AN] Kird Ape
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [ALA] Wild Nacatl
// Spells
4 [A] Lightning Bolt
4 [REW] Lightning Helix
4 [DS] AEther Vial
3 [TSB] Tribal Flames
// Sideboard
SB: 3 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 4 [CNF] Volcanic Fallout
Anathemancer is usually worth a bolt + body, but sometimes against landstill (or 43 land... >:D) it can be so much more. I'm gonna keep testing it, though I doubt it'll be the version I settle on.
Burn/Zoo/Sligh decks all have the same problem: they run out of gas. If one of my 7 starting cards is Aether Vial, I'll run out of gas even faster. To balance this, I can and add Dark Confidant. Result: I have 4 cards to set up my agression better, 4 cards to refuel => 8 cards for better mid-late game.
But!
a) I have weaker manabase. Well, Vial is here to compensate that, but if I have no Vial in my 7 and opp has some mana denial? Bah, my deck became less consistent.
b) Outside Vial and Confidant, my whole deck was designed to be an early fast aggro, not midgame, so with Vial and Confidant the deck lost its focus. That's the main reason I don't like 4c/Domain "Zoo" decks.
Somewhere in late 2008/ I've experimented with various Zoo colors and WRG was not acceptable for me 'cause I had no good answers to shit that brakes my gameplan (like CB and Chalice). Well, there were Grip and the likes, but their presence in my deck already shrinks the amount of early preasure I could put on the table. Since that times, Alara Reborn came out and gives us the solution: Qasali Pridemage. Now I can't see any reason to run black or blue.
I've posted some thoughts on matchups, but no one responded. So people, please, point me, how the addition of
or/and
will affect(improve) our matchups. IMHO Vial needs the same discussion to be productive.
Oh, and Wasteland.
All succesfull decks with Wasteland run
a) Another form of mana denial (TempoThresh, TA, EvaGreen).
b) A way to recurr it to softlock (Loam, Stax).
And they all have their ways to capitalize after throw you off balance (say, big dude, effective Daze, (Magus of) the Tabernacle).
Zoo have none of mentioned above. Yeah, Wateland is great card, but it can't help our gameplan much. Oh, and I want my second land to be Mountain or Plains for my Nacatl. And I ALWAYS want to be able to cast my Pridemage on turn 2. So sorry Wasteland, please find another home.
Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way.
Alright, here's the vial analysis.Burn/Zoo/Sligh decks all have the same problem: they run out of gas. If one of my 7 starting cards is Aether Vial, I'll run out of gas even faster. To balance this, I can and add Dark Confidant. Result: I have 4 cards to set up my agression better, 4 cards to refuel => 8 cards for better mid-late game.
But!
a) I have weaker manabase. Well, Vial is here to compensate that, but if I have no Vial in my 7 and opp has some mana denial? Bah, my deck became less consistent.
b) Outside Vial and Confidant, my whole deck was designed to be an early fast aggro, not midgame, so with Vial and Confidant the deck lost its focus. That's the main reason I don't like 4c/Domain "Zoo" decks.
Somewhere in late 2008/ I've experimented with various Zoo colors and WRG was not acceptable for me 'cause I had no good answers to shit that brakes my gameplan (like CB and Chalice). Well, there were Grip and the likes, but their presence in my deck already shrinks the amount of early preasure I could put on the table. Since that times, Alara Reborn came out and gives us the solution: Qasali Pridemage. Now I can't see any reason to run black or blue.
I've posted some thoughts on matchups, but no one responded
Dragonstompy goes from average on the play to great, since vial allows you to play all your dudes through their disruption, including pridemages to blow up their moons/chalices/3spheres. Without vial, this matchup is much harder.
Pox goes from average to great, same reasons as above except pridemage isn't as important.
Against any blue deck, vial is amazing. These matchups are usually about 55/45, but with vial it improves vastly. It makes a full quarter of their deck most of the time into dead cards and vastly decreases the effectiveness of wasteland against you.
Stax improves similarly to dragonstompy.
Aggro matchups are a trade off. You have 4 less dudes/removal spells, but tons of opportunities to generate 2-for-1s, and can dodge all the mana denial shenanigans of Goblins. I'd say it's a positive to have it.
So yes, Dragonstompy, Stax, and Pox may not be the most popular of decks around, but Vial improves all those matchups by a very large amount, making all three of them from bad-ish to very good. And at a decent sized tournament, you will definitely see those decks (I'm a huge advocate of DStompy in the current metagame, too. If you've never tried that deck, you should. It's pretty awesome.) The boost against blue decks is tangible, though, and I don't understand how everyone is shrugging it off when blue is the most popular color in the format.
Like I said earlier, I had a game where I went t1 Vial t2-3 wastelands. My opponent was never in that game. It most definitely can support your gameplan.Oh, and Wasteland.
All succesfull decks with Wasteland run
a) Another form of mana denial (TempoThresh, TA, EvaGreen).
b) A way to recurr it to softlock (Loam, Stax).
And they all have their ways to capitalize after throw you off balance (say, big dude, effective Daze, (Magus of) the Tabernacle).
Zoo have none of mentioned above. Yeah, Wateland is great card, but it can't help our gameplan much. Oh, and I want my second land to be Mountain or Plains for my Nacatl. And I ALWAYS want to be able to cast my Pridemage on turn 2. So sorry Wasteland, please find another home.
And I don't know why everyone keeps complaining about not being able to cast their nacatls and pridemages, when I clearly pointed out that there are 24 lands in that build. It's got all the lands you normally need to play your pridemages, so please stop complaining about that.
Synergy with KoTR, which I run, is also good.
And if you're on draw? And if you have no Vial in opening 7? And how do your Apes, Nacatls and Tribal Flames feel under Moon effect? And if they play turn 1 creature, turn 2 eqip it with SoFaI/Jitte (with Vial, you run less burn, so it's harder to respond this)? And if they resolve turn 1 Slogger (and you have Vial instead of 2nd burn spell)? Too many "If", don't you think?
Maybe, I've never tested against Pox 'cause no one playing it in my area. In theory, high amount of cheap burn can turn their Pox against them the same manner Vialed threats do, but I dunno...
Humility+Elspeth? Magus or the Tabernacle + Geddon? You're on draw? turn 2 Exalted Angel (and Vial instead of 2nd burt to kill her fast)? Again, too many "If"...
Ok, about your deck: 28 mana sources in aggressive deck with no draw, no manipulate and no high-cost spells? Oh, Fireblast! But Blast + Teeg mandeck??
In general: Vial is a great card. But.
I. Don't. Want. To. Cut. BURN!
That's the key of Zoo/Sligh: cheap fast creatures, bash, finish with burn if they deal with creatures/before they stabilize. That's the strategy.
Successfull decks with Vial are: Merfolk, Goblins. Less successful: Dead & Taxes, VialFish(+Faestill).
All theese decks run cards that make Vial better than manacheat+nocounter(Waste+Port tempo, Waste+Standstill+manlands, Spellstutter Sprite+Standstill, Tricks+Serra Avenger).
I don't see any of theese Vial tricks in Zoo and I don't think Zoo's low curve needs acceleration, one of Vial's main purpouse(the second is uncounterability because blue >>> metagame).
Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way.
@ eq.firemind
You aren't removing cards that are absolutely amazing though. You aren't taking Goyf out of the deck, you're taking a 2 power critter out. All gas is not equal, and the opportunity cost for running Vial isn't that high.Burn/Zoo/Sligh decks all have the same problem: they run out of gas. If one of my 7 starting cards is Aether Vial, I'll run out of gas even faster.
Vial does make the rest of your gas better though. And, it means that in many circumstances, your gas actually has meaning, even in the face of an opposing Chalice or CB/Top lock.
The consistency issue is out of context. Zoo decks playing Vial will always be more consistent on average than those without Vial against mana denial. This mana consistency is one of the reasons to play Vial in the first place.I have weaker manabase. Well, Vial is here to compensate that, but if I have no Vial in my 7 and opp has some mana denial? Bah, my deck became less consistent.
Going for a 4th/5th color is up to you. If you think Vial increases the average consistency of the deck enough to make up for the inconsistency of adding another color, then go for it. If you don't, so what? That is not an argument against Vial itself.
You're joking, right? Vial is insane in this matchup. You're "if's" are poor exceptions that have completely ignored the fundamentals of this matchup.Humility+Elspeth? Magus or the Tabernacle + Geddon? You're on draw? turn 2 Exalted Angel (and not enough bunt to kill her fast)? Again, too many "If".
Chalice, Geddon, 3-Sphere, Wasteland/Crucible, and Smokestack (which are commonly found in stax) are perfect reasons to play Aether Vial. Vial gives you ways to pump permanents into play through their hate.
If you don't open with Vial, /shrug, well you didn't open with Vial. You'd be in roughly the same position as if you didn't run it in your deck in the first place.And if you're on draw? And if you have no Vial in opening 7? And how do your Apes, Nacatls and Tribal Flames feel under Moon effect? And if they play turn 1 creature, turn 2 eqip it with SoFaI/Jitte (with Vial, you run less burn, so it's harder to respond this)? And if they resolve turn 1 Slogger (and you have Vial instead of 2nd burn spell)? Too many "If", don't you think?
I think having Vial in your deck is still better than not having it in your deck in all of those situations. About 37% of the time you'll have Vial, and the rest of the time you'll be playing business as usual.
You continue to bring up some pretty amazing and uncommon opposing hands: like Turn 2 Creature/Jitte equipped. These aren't the common sorts of disruption that I meet. You need to rethink your examples. As in most of your examples, I think you have a good chance to lose regardless of whether or not you had Vial in your deck.
You missed quite a few. Affinity, Counterslivers, Survival, Cephalid Breakfast, and while you mentioned it, you've not captured the value of it -- 30 million flavors of Fish (in all colors) abuse Vial. Zoo is Fish. Vial certainly isn't out of place.Successfull decks with Vial are: Merfolk, Goblins. Less successful: Dead & Taxes, VialFish(+Faestill).
Many deploy cards with additional synergy to Vial, but you've obviously forgotten many that don't and still successfully run the card. The fact that you don't see any Vial tricks for Zoo is a sign that you've not practiced with the card enough. The card commonly abuses information advantage at instant speed, creating opportunities to 2 for 1 traps or unexpected lines of play for your opponent.All theese decks run cards that make Vial better than manacheat+nocounter(Waste+Port tempo, Waste+Standstill+manlands, Spellstutter Sprite+Standstill, Mangara+Karakas, Flickerwisp tricks).
I don't see any of theese Vial tricks in Zoo and I don't think Zoo's low curve needs manacheat, one of Vial's main purpouse(the second is uncounterable because blue>metagame)
Smoothing mana curves (CC and Color) is important, even in Zoo, especially since it lets you spend your mana on your other non-creature spells.
There are certainly games you will lose because you ran Vial instead of a low end creature/burn spell, but there are also many that you will win because you ran Aether Vial. Vial curbs some of the greater weaknesses of this archetype (as it has for so many aggro decks).
peace,
4eak
What about vial as a sideboard card?
Because I've seen arguments like:
I don't want to cut creatures/burn main deck (I want to keep it early game aggro)
<-> Vial improves A LOT of matchups.
Vial is particularly good to dodge stuff like Counterbalance. But if that's your problem, shouldn't you just play Trygon Predators, so you can swing with a 3/3 turn 2 instead of having carddisadvantage and swinging on turn 3?
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's probably delicious.
Team ADHD-To resist is to piss in the wind. Anyone who does will end up smelling.
Vial isn't a card that you just add to a deck. You either build a deck with Vial and adjust your lands and creaturespells accordingly. Or you don't use vial.
Vial would allow you to play both creature spells and burn in the same turn, it's a tempo card, or atleast one that allows you to gain tempo. I do agree that nothing else in the deck really tries to take advantage of that tempo (like wastelands) but as said, you need to do more then just adding vials when you go for that route.
I'm fairly sure it works both ways, it's more a matter of playstyle if any, fast all in or a midgame oriented approach.
Is it? I think it would rather slow you down.
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's probably delicious.
Team ADHD-To resist is to piss in the wind. Anyone who does will end up smelling.
Tempo isn't the same as speed.
Then please explain to me what 'tempo' is, and why Aether Vial is a good thing for Zoo.
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's probably delicious.
Team ADHD-To resist is to piss in the wind. Anyone who does will end up smelling.
I finally get it. We argue about same 2 cards (Confi and Vial) in two different decks.
There are 2 groups of people:
First (including me) plays and discuss RWG aggro(/midrange) deck that has basically evolved this way: Sligh => Goyfsligh (added 2nd color and better dudes) => Zoo (added 3rd color for sideboard options and some utility/metagame dudes).
The second group plays and discuss RGW(x) (aggro/)midrange Fish-like deck.
Two decks have many cards in common, but they are different and that merged discussion comes in wrong direction.
Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way.
@ eq.firemind
Hehe. I alluded to a similar point in my original post about Aether Vial in this thread. I think Zoo is a very aggressive aggro-control deck, and with the addition of Qasali its possible roles may flexibly shift a bit.I finally get it. We argue about same 2 cards (Confi and Vial) in two different decks.
I wouldn't call them different decks though (not yet at least). They have a slightly different focus with different strengths. The differences in role are still only slight ones in the broad scheme of things.
If you commonly point burn at creatures, not just obvious targets like True Believer, trying to win ground wars, then you definitely are playing a form of Fish. Call it Sligh/Zoo, whatever you want. When burn isn't just going to the head, and you choose to interact with control features like an opposing Goyf blocking your weenies, then you are playing aggro-control. Some Zoo decks are more aggressive Fish decks than others, but because they all have the need to play control/disruption, directly interacting with the opponent's gameplan, from time to time, then they are all Red Fish.
We are all playing Burn-based fish, and the differences really aren't that big. The two camps still have very similar decks. Both camps are seeking the same thing: Limited interaction using fast critters in a burn-shell. Everything else added to the deck is about maximizing that role, including those in favor of testing Aether Vial and Confidant.
I think you've missed part of the evolution though. From my perspective, this all started with straight mono red burn. In a vacuum, Burn is the more consistent turn 4 win deck. But, it is too subject to an opponent's ability to interact. However, for the price of a small bit of speed and losing a bit of virtual CA, adding creatures creates a cheap and reliable source of damage over time with a more stable deck against opposing control features. You don't need all your spells to stick to win, just a few. The second camp is arguing that it is viable to continue using that principle -- they still started from the same Burn and Sligh decks you did. Adding even more colors and responses to opposing control features has been a common theme in the evolutions of this deck.
Zoo doesn't play pure aggro, or it would just stay Burn (even though Burn.dec must contend with its increasing reliance on playing the control role). Zoo/Sligh was a shift to play control against some of the answers to Burn.dec, to bypass or mitigate those answers. From an evolutionary standpoint, it seems well within the tradition of this deck to allow for answering your opponent just enough to maintain that aggressive role as early as possible.
I'm not saying adding Qasali Pridemage, Confidant, and Vial are necessary (although if the metagame shifts to answer Zoo, then it could be), but I've certainly found them to be viable choices in Zoo.
peace,
4eak
The history of the deck is pretty irrelevant, it's about where the deck is now. As far as I know all Zoo decks are based on the same strategy (I just stole point 5 from the TT thread):
This is why Aether Vial doesn't fit. Using cards like Qasali Pridemage, Trygon Predator, Dark Confidant, Grim Lavamancer or Tidehollow Sculler help disrupting your opponent while beating face. They seem to be the foundation of what Zoo is, next to the ridiculously cheap beaters that are Tarmogoyf, Wild Nacatl and Kird Ape.
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's probably delicious.
Team ADHD-To resist is to piss in the wind. Anyone who does will end up smelling.
@ Skeggi
You've implicitly stated that Zoo is exclusively about tempo. I won't deny tempo is important, but there are other things to consider.
Clearly you've missed the principle of the exercise then. Effectively evaluating 'where the deck is now' will take into account and learn from the history of the deck.The history of the deck is pretty irrelevant, it's about where the deck is now.
If we are really only after raw tempo, then Burn was that deck. We should never have changed. Burn was always awesome at deploying its assets as fast as possible. The principle we should extract from the deck history is that "deploying your assets faster than your opponent" wasn't always a working strategy, which is why Burn evolved into Sligh/Zoo.
Adding slower, less tempo oriented cards which answer our opponent's control strategy became a better play than just seeking raw tempo. Likewise, when Zoo gets answered, and there are many answers to it, we should definitely consider losing a small bit of tempo in favor of cards that answer opponent's control strategies.
Vial/Confidant/Qasali is just a continuation of Zoo's evolution from Burn. In metagames preparing for Zoo, this could easily be the natural step.
When you sit down to actually test Vial, you'll find that very little tempo is lost in the first place. I've provided several reasons already for how and why this works. Very little offensive power is lost for the powerful, proactive defensive answer to our opponent's control cards. In any deck with 17+ creatures, it is always worth testing and talking about Aether Vial.
Essentially, Vial is a tempo card when it is answering your opponent's control strategy. You will effectively be deploying your assets faster with Vial than you normally could without it in the face of mana denial, permission, and certain types of board control.
The best argument against Aether Vial is the assumption that Zoo already avoids interaction with the opponent and will continue to do so. I think this is a poor assumption, as I think many sideboards will start preparing for this match. Vial only becomes better and better as metagames prepare for your aggro strategy because it enables you to continue to avoid interaction, even when your opponent has put in the effort and sideboard space to effectively interact with and control your deck.
peace,
4eak
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