I actually think this is a legitimate point considering the ridiculous amount of decks that play a playset of goyfs. The scenario where your goyf is staring down another is not uncommon; its much more statistically common than your opponent possessing his own 2 goyfs and you having none.Originally Posted by AnwarA101
However, I do think the most important points for this discussion are the land destruction vs. the need for white mana. Which outweighs the other? I personally feel like the LD dominates some games, and the need for white mana is really not that big of a deal. Bloodmoon effects are quite rare in viable decks, and the real worry should come from opposing wastelands. An opponent wastelanding your land is annoying, but its slowing down the mana excel of the opponent as well which is really not that horrible for this deck. The situations where wasteland completely devestates you aren't really that common.
Don't get me wrong, it sucks to have a land destroyed by wasteland, and of course there are some decks that run bloodmoon effects out there. It just seems to me like Vindicate is worth the few extra nonbasics.
(and you can run a couple StP in the SB)
Does someone have a link to a WGB list that utilizes Vindicate and StP?
I'm curious as to whether that list also makes use of other creautes (Doran, Leech)
Traditionally, most of the white splash decks don't run Doran (although I've seen some that do). Leech is pretty new, so I'm not sure you'll find many decklists with it yet.
From what I've seen, most of the time the Seals/Snuff Outs get cut for Vindicate/StP.
How viable do you think Doran and the Leech are?
3 mana for a 5/5 isn't shabby, and it also hoses Goblin Piledrivers.
Edit: I dun't know mana costs lol
Doran is actually 3 mana :)
Personally, I think Doran is a great card, but I don't think he works well for Eva Green.
First of all, I'm not a big fan of the white splash myself. However, if I were to play it, I'd splash only for Vindicates. StP, while a great card, is also one that gives your opponent life, which this deck really doesn't want to do.
Anyways - more on why I don't like Doran in Eva Green:
Pros: Makes Goyfs do more damage, very efficient for his cost.
Cons: Requires white splash, unable to be played off of a Dark Ritual, can't be played until a minimum turn 3
The Green + White mana cost also means you minimally have to have a Bayou, Scrubland, + other black mana producing land. Playing the standard decklist, I sometimes even find myself lacking BB due to Wastelands, etc. I can't think that the white splash has a more consistant manabase.
The next question is: what does Doran replace? The only real thing it would seem to replace is Nantuko Shade. Shade fills a valuable role in the deck, however, providing a BB spells 9-12 that you can cast turn 1 off of a Dark Ritual (after a Thoughtseize). Also, Shade is a better play late game and also allows you to make use of those late game Dark Rituals you draw.
With the Leech, I could see it used over Shade, but again the BG cost over BB really causes me to reconsider it. It's better than Shade early game, but worse than it mid-late game. Leech will almost never be able to kill a Goyf on its own - Shade has the potential to do so, especially with a Dark Ritual pumping it.
Would you consider Path to Exile over swords for this deck?
I would say it's definitely something to consider. If you PtE a blocker when you have lethal on the board, that one land isn't going to matter. StPing a Tarmogoyf or Tombstalker blocker can definitely give them another turn.
I also think that since the mana curve on spells is so low in Legacy, giving someone an extra basic isn't as terrible.
Of course, if they're color screwed and you get them a land for that color, it can turn out badly for you.
Definitely something to consider though.
Another thing to think about is many decks are tending to run less and less basics. Someone playing against Eva Green is likely to fetch out their basics first (to protect against Wasteland). If they're out of basics in the deck, PtE becomes amazing :)
Well, since this is a tempo deck and not a control deck, we won't care that much about extra mana if we are going for the kill.
You could argue that the Stp gives them another turn as opposed to PtE.
But that point becomes a little less significant when the deck also runs 4 Snuff Out to bypass Goyf staredowns. The deck also runs other creatures, so it's not unimaginable to sacrifice your Goyf to kill your opponent's FTW.
But how much more LD do you need with Eva Green? You run 4 Sinkhole and 4 Wasteland. That's more than enough. Anyway, Stifle is better LD hate than Vindicate, and in that case, TA is a better direction than Eva Green w/ Vindicate.However, I do think the most important points for this discussion are the land destruction vs. the need for white mana. Which outweighs the other? I personally feel like the LD dominates some games, and the need for white mana is really not that big of a deal.
With the coming of Maelstrom Pulse, Vindicate just seems utterly unnecessary in the deck. Maelstrom Pulse serves the most relevant purposes of Vindicate (versatile creature/artifact/enchantment kill) but doesn't require splashing another color.
Hey there, I'm building a similar deck and I wish to ask two questions which remain unanswered even though I browsed most of the replies:
1) Is there a specific reason why you are not using Dark Confidant? It's an amazing draw engine that swings for 2 and refuels your hand after turns 3-4 were it will definitely be empty. Even Vintage decks play him, he is that good. :)
2) Since you are packing so much disruption and cheap threats, why not play 2-3 Nether Void to seal the game? It will lock your already disrupted opponent, giving him no chance to recover.
@ DeMarki: In regards to Dark Confidant - Eva Green doesn't run any library manipulation, so hitting either Tombstalker or Snuff Out = pain...
I understand that of course and in my opinion Dark Confidant would be viable if you could run him instead of Tombstalkers(you already got Shades and Goys as beaters) and also replacing Snuff Out with Diabolic Edict/Powder Keg.
Haven't tested the Kegs so far, but I'm using the Diabolic Edicts at the moment and they are very good, not to mention you can't get rid of your opponent's Tombstalkers/Morphlings with the snuff out.
I would agree with the voices against the white splash; Eva Green is more about quick thunder than about raw power. You want to hit hard and hit early. As good as StP and Vindicate are, this deck has no room for them. I like being able to blow anything up, but I'd agree that Maelstrom Pulse is better for this by already being in our colors.
I'd also agree that it's ridiculous to not run Maelstrom Pulse simply because you don't want it when you have a Goyf staredown; you do have other ways of dealing with opposing Goyfs, plus Pulse is nice if your opponent tries to break the stalemate by making another Goyf.
@DF; there's a whole thread on a Doran-Eva idea here. Again, though, that feels more like a tempo/aggro-control deck than a pure steamroller like Eva Green. I'm not willing to argue against the idea of a speedy Doran deck as an idea so much as against that idea being coincident with this one. Which way you go is a taste issue, which I won't quibble over.
Not to mention actually playing said Snuff out will cost you another 4 life, and that's after playing a couple of Thoughtseize and popping some fetches. Not cool. Plus he doesn't swing for enough and dies to everything.
That being said, I have seen many players go -2 Stalker +2 Bob, -2 Snuff Out + 2 Edict. You definitely don't want to replace all of your Stalkers, he's wayyy too good. Also, Shade is possibly one of the weakest slots in the deck, as you often want to be playing spells rather than doing an extra 2-3 damage, or trying to make him big enough to live in battle.
Dark Confidant is a great card, no doubt. However, if you cut the Tombstalkers, now you're increasing your succeptibility to Counterbalance/Top, cutting down the threat density of the deck, and really losing a very fast clock on your disrupted opponent.
Problem with Dark Confidant in this deck is that it takes a few turns to really affect the game. Eva Green tries to disrupt your opponent early and overwhelm them before they can recover.
Likewise with Diabolic Edict - yes, it can hit more things. However, it costs you 2 mana while Snuff Out costs you 0 mana. Edict is a better card in general, for sure, but Snuff Out is a better card if all you care about is tempo.
Kegs again - they take turns to matter. Also, with so many 2 drops in this deck, you may find yourself blowing up more of your own stuff than you'd like.
--Snuff Out is in the deck because it doesn't cost mana to play, which is amazing. Diabloic Edict is good, but it costs mana. Powder Keg is strictly inferior to Deed and Explosives, both of which are easier to maneuver around things like Counterbalance and both of which work sooner.
--Having Dark Confidant to draw more stuff doesn't matter if there isn't stuff there to draw, and Shade is kind of awkward on its face. As with Snuff Out, you want to conserve mana at every turn, and constantly having to pump Shade is a little awkward. I'd also mention that in hundreds of games playing this deck with both Bob and Tombstalker, they've only intersected three or four times. I don't consider myself a lucksack, so this seems okay to me.
Not to mention that having most of your dudes cost two makes your deck awful against things running EE or Chalice (a giant problem I had when running both Bob and Shade during that brief period when it seemed good).
EDIT: I'm saying more or less the same things Esper did, I'm just apparently a slower typist. :-/ I don't mean to sound like an asshole or beat a dead horse, so don't take offense or anything.
Last edited by coraz86; 05-26-2009 at 05:00 PM. Reason: the only time redundancy will ever be bad in Legacy
Yeah, no offense is intended by my posts either, btw.
I love playing this deck and I just believe that the greatest strength is the tempo it generates. Slowing the deck down, even for cards that are amazing, is typically a change that I don't support.
I both agree and disagree with you. Dark Confidant might not turn the game to your favor the moment it hits play, but it's very cheap, efficient and starts creating card advantage from turn 3. what usually happens and makes me frustrated is playing all my threats early and sitting with an empty hand on turn 4, hoping to draw a threat next turn.
Have you thought about using using Nether Void in Eva-Green? I can't see any reason why not using it to be honest in a deck like this. Most of the time it will be 3B: You win the game.
With Dark Confidant, you don't actually start getting card advantage until your second upkeep (the 1st one, you're just breaking even as it just replaces itself). Plus, you effectively did nothing (didn't disrupt or play a game-ending threat) with the mana you spent on Dark Confidant.
Sometimes you can indeed run out of gas with this deck. It's very possible that you blow your disruption and can't draw finishers while they're down. Unfortunately, without library manipulation or card draw, that's one of the things we contend with.
Nether Void seems interesting, but I would be worried about its casting cost (4 can be difficult to reach quickly), trying to draw gas and drawing that instead, or worst case - having it backfire on you...
Anyone else have thoughts on Nether Void?
After you've played your early disruption and threats, you either win the game or follow a topdecking path to losing.
You won't have that problem with Void. It will seal your lead, like an Armageddon would. With a Goyf or a Shade on the board, and nothing to threaten its existence, you will certainly win in a short few turns.
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