(Archive) [DTW] Aggro Loam

[Soldar]

Alright, I haven't posted in the Aggro Loam thread, but locally, I'm pretty much the only person playing it week after week. For the longest time, testing up to the GP I was adamant about keeping Dark Confidant out of the deck. Then at the GP, I tossed it in and tried it out, and they were great. I hit some bad matchups at the GP and dropped, but overall I was much happier with Confidant flipping additional threats to throw at counterspells than my previous build.

Even if you have to proxy them for testing, they're about the best turn 1 threat you can drop.

[Mordel]

Care to explain why you were adament about not running them?

[Soldar]

I'm not exactly sure anymore. I think it's that the loam engine has been incredibly good to me as far as drawing cards goes, and that he would die to Devastating Dreams. My version was kind of top heavy, in that it was running 4 Crushers and 3 Terravores for a while, and 3 Dreams in the mainboard, so I was operating mostly on theory of "He would die to my own spells." It was my own stubbornness that kept me away from a card that wins games on its own.

After facing Relic of Progenitus a couple times, I wanted to get away from relying so heavily on the graveyard, as often my Terravores would come into play dead post-board.

So my current creature base is:
4 Crusher
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Confidant
2 Eternal Witness
1 Terravore

[Mordel]

Got it. I actually still run two terravores, but I lack witnesses. A lot of the time, I found myself not really caring about getting them and when I did, I was getting a creature back 99% of the time, so they became an extra stronghold and something else.

I am actually experimenting with a random regrowth-type card in my wishboard if only because there was a free spot that I could sneak it into. I haven't been playing the deck much recently though.

Depending what's in your meta, you could get away with dropping the dreams down a bit and bringing them in for specific matches from the sb or whatever. You've probably know what you need though. I personally find myself not using dreams much other than as a big finisher.

[kkoie]

I am actually experimenting with a random regrowth-type card in my wishboard if only because there was a free spot that I could sneak it into. I haven't been playing the deck much recently though.

Depending what's in your meta, you could get away with dropping the dreams down a bit and bringing them in for specific matches from the sb or whatever. You've probably know what you need though. I personally find myself not using dreams much other than as a big finisher.

Of the "regrowth" cards, I think Nostolgic Dreams has some interesting potential as a wish target.

[kroelai]

Got it. I actually still run two terravores, but I lack witnesses. A lot of the time, I found myself not really caring about getting them and when I did, I was getting a creature back 99% of the time, so they became an extra stronghold and something else.

I am actually experimenting with a random regrowth-type card in my wishboard if only because there was a free spot that I could sneak it into. I haven't been playing the deck much recently though.

Depending what's in your meta, you could get away with dropping the dreams down a bit and bringing them in for specific matches from the sb or whatever. You've probably know what you need though. I personally find myself not using dreams much other than as a big finisher.

So why you want the regrowth effect in your wishboard if you dislike the witness?

[Mordel]

...in conjunction with wishes, I get four regrowth slots out of one in my sideboard, whereas eternal witness takes up two slots at the very least and I may not use them for the entire game, but they are stuck in my deck regardless...

[kkoie]

Between the two options, if I wanted a regrowth effect in my ver. of the deck, I'd go with a wish target also. I ran a singleton e-wit when I first started playing around with the deck, and quickly cut it because I noticed I hardly ever used it. And when I did, I was generally winning anyway. I don't even know if a regrowth effect is needed in the SB. I'd rather run another hate-card instead.

[rockSTAR]

Due to some cardchoice-changes in some t1-decks especially Qasali Pridemage seeing very much play, I thought about packing the deck with some discard and drop the chalice. The thing is that the thresplayers can bump it up at will and cards like thoughtseize+ravens crime (!!) solve the same problems that chalice does: Ripping the counters/removal away.

What do you think? I think about ~8discardspells maindeck.

[Al-ucard]

Last week I choose to quit the chalice since the decks against we need them have explosives MD and krosan grip in side. In its place i put 4 aether vial and I have to say that I'm happy with them. Another card I love against this decks is raven's crime, with loam engine active and discarding 1-2 cards every turn seems ok to me.

This is my list:

25 Lands
4 Bloodstained mire
4 Wasteland
3 Tranquil thiquet
3 Forgotten cave
3 Taiga
2 Wooded foothills
2 Mountain
1 Bayou
1 Blood crypt
1 Volrath Stronghold
1 Forest

14 Creatures
4 Countryside Crusher
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Dark confidant
3 Terravore

21 Others
4 Aether vial
4 Mox diamond
4 Burning wish
3 Maelstrom pulse
3 Life from the loam
2 Seismic Assault
1 Raven's crime

60 TOTAL

15 Sideboard
4 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Vexing shusher
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Raven's crime
1 Reverent silence
1 Life from the loam
1 Devastating dreams
1 Shattering spree
1 Perish

[rockSTAR]

During my testings of Maelstrom Pulse I often found myself in a situation, especially vs Thresalike decks, where it is simply 1 turn too slow. You want to play around daze, so you probably cast it on turn 4 (if you don't have the mox). At this time Tarmogoyf might already hit you twice and your lifetotal is quite reduced.

While I think 1 pulse in the SB as a wish target is the right way, I also think that the pulse is not the way to go for loam. Explosives is simply better.

[leander?]

Mybe there's just something in the air, becouse I've cutted the Chalices in favor of Vials and Thoughtseizes a couple of days ago as well. Since I haven't had the opportunity to test it yet, I can't say much about it. But the Synergy of Vial with the deck intruiges me already. Imagine hoe much easier it will become to recover from DD with a Vial. Imagine how much spare mana you will have for your Loam engine. Only imagine how scared the opponent will be to attack when you've got a Vial@3.
Anyhow, Al-ucard, don't you think 4 Vials for 14 only creatures is too much? Personally I'm planning to test 3 Vials for 15 creatures.

[rockSTAR]

I think that we have to talk about the number and the kind of discard we should try to use. I' like to start with something like:

-2 Thoughtseize
-2 Duress
-2 Raven's Crime

What do you guys think?

Also I'm not set on the vials... You drop a mighty component of the deck (chalice) and add something that doesn't do antyhting which could fill the hole, chalice leaves...dangerous... Seriously I don't think that theres enough space in the deck to pack both Vial AND discard.

[diffy]

I thought about packing the deck with some discard and drop the Chalice.

If you want to play discard in Aggro Loam, have a look at some French lists - they have been playing discard over Chalice for like forever. Here's a sample list (talked about here).

In my, albeit limited, experience with the French lists, I must say that I like Discard over Chalice a lot, mainly because it helps out the curve but also because it supports the controlish side of this deck much better than Chalice: it helps push through your bombs rather than clutter the deck with another conditionally strong 2-mana card. For sure you'll loose more guys to topdecked Swords to Plowshares than before, however, this will not hurt you as much as before since you'll quit playing this deck Aggro-oriented and start playing it more like Control-Combo (the 'Combo' being [Crusher+] Devastating Dreams or just Loam + random stuff like Worm Harvest, Volrath's Stronghold or Raven's Crime), with a Control player's mindset (i.e. you'll win eventually, when you are ready to do so, with nothing being able to stop you), but retaining the possibility to go all Aggro on your opponent if you have to.

The other interesting thing about that list is Solitary Confinement out of the board - you should look into it: it helps tremendously against Burn-based Aggro (while not being terribly narrow since it also has some applications against other forms of Aggro and Combo) which, with the loss of Chalice, starts being a bad-ish matchup.

One of the few things I don't like about that list is the lack of a good solution to a resolved Counterbalance - Engineered Explosives and maybe a single Worm Harvest in the main would be some good inclusions to remedy this issue (leading to something along these lines).

I've cut the Chalices in favor of Vials a couple of days ago as well.

This has been done before, you may want to have a look at this guy's findings.
If I recall correctly, the consensus back then was that it wasn't worth it.

[leander?]

Seriously I don't think that theres enough space in the deck to pack both Vial AND discard.

4 Mox Diamond
3 Aether Vial
3 Thoughtsieze
1 Raven's Crime
2 Devastating Dreams
3 Life from the Loam
4 Burning Wish
2 Seismic Assault

4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Terravore
4 Countryside Crusher

1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Forgotten Cave
3 Tranquil Thicket
4 Wasteland
1 Windswept Heath
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Bayou
1 Badlands
3 Taiga

[Al-ucard]

@Vials: First I started with 3 but I rarely draw them in first turns, so I decided to put the 4th in.

@Maelstrom: I have to say that for now I'm not sure about them, but when I have one in hand I always feel very confortable because you will response any card oponent plays. Last week I killed 2 tarmogoyf against a bant deck and 2 5/5 Gathan Raiders XD. Another point is that with them you will cover the "krosan grip" spot too, so you can put other cards in sideboard.

4 Mox Diamond
3 Aether Vial
3 Thoughtsieze
1 Raven's Crime
2 Devastating Dreams
3 Life from the Loam
4 Burning Wish
2 Seismic Assault

4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Terravore
4 Countryside Crusher

1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Forgotten Cave
3 Tranquil Thicket
4 Wasteland
1 Windswept Heath
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Bayou
1 Badlands
3 Taiga

I like the fact of having discard and vials but you sacrifice the removal spot and with 61 cards have only 24 lands seems suboptimal.

[rockSTAR]

2 Words: Split Second ;)

The NLU lists run too many cc3 spells to rely on casting pulse to handle cb... Explosives... any day

If you want to play discard in Aggro Loam, have a look at some French lists - they have been playing discard over Chalice for like forever. Here's a sample list (talked about here).

In my, albeit limited, experience with the French lists, I must say that I like Discard over Chalice a lot, mainly because it helps out the curve but also because it supports the controlish side of this deck much better than Chalice: it helps push through your bombs rather than clutter the deck with another conditionally strong 2-mana card. For sure you'll loose more guys to topdecked Swords to Plowshares than before, however, this will not hurt you as much as before since you'll quit playing this deck Aggro-oriented and start playing it more like Control-Combo (the 'Combo' being [Crusher+] Devastating Dreams or just Loam + random stuff like Worm Harvest, Volrath's Stronghold or Raven's Crime), with a Control player's mindset (i.e. you'll win eventually, when you are ready to do so, with nothing being able to stop you), but retaining the possibility to go all Aggro on your opponent if you have to.

The other interesting thing about that list is Solitary Confinement out of the board - you should look into it: it helps tremendously against Burn-based Aggro (while not being terribly narrow since it also has some applications against other forms of Aggro and Combo) which, with the loss of Chalice, starts being a bad-ish matchup.

One of the few things I don't like about that list is the lack of a good solution to a resolved Counterbalance - Engineered Explosives and maybe a single Worm Harvest in the main would be some good inclusions to remedy this issue (leading to something along these lines).



This has been done before, you may want to have a look at this guy's findings.
If I recall correctly, the consensus back then was that it wasn't worth it.

I don't like the lack of assault in that list. Assault is simply so freakin mighty on its own that, when drawn from the top in the lategame, is often the game for you. I read the article as well and I think Chalice is not the way to go anymore, wherby your argument abput the topdecked swords is totally right. But hey: I'd rather take the cb/goyf off my oponents hand then play a chalice and save my doods from swords. I think we all agree on this one...

[Al-ucard]

Two words: trigger ability XD

If you play krosan grip CB triggers and since

The NLU lists run too many cc3 spells to rely on casting pulse to handle cb...

probably it will counter it ;-)

[rockSTAR]

Lol that was not my intention with the argument. Split second detains your opponent to manipulate the top cards. Sure, he can luckily flip cc3 but thats more uncommon than doing this after having manipulated the topcards...

[Al-ucard]

I see your arguments, but the fact that krosan grip can't kill creatures is enough for me to play pulse instead. This way you could put shusher instead and you will have a better 2nd and 3rd match against blue decks