I'm curious about this deck's Goblins Matchup, having not played this matchup.
It seems like you should roll them with your tons of blockers/removal and Jitte, but I still see Tivadar of Thorn in the sideboard. Is Goblins a tough matchup?
Well, as far as I know Tivadar is just too insane with Karakas to not use it and makes the (already decent) Goblins matchup almost impossible to lose.
Originally Posted by SpikeyMikey
Goblins is one of the better matchups, but they can still lucksack into a victory the way Goblins do. Tivadar pretty well owns the matchup with the things D+T can do to keep him coming into play over and over at instant speed or at EOT, so plenty of players are still using him.
I love it when Tacosnape reads me Seuss. It's the sodomy I don't like.
It seems a little narrow when Burrenton Forge-Tender splashes onto a lot of other MUs. For instance: Housing Devastating Dreams, Pyrokinesis, Burn, Ichorid.
I don't see why it's in there (I saw the synergies). The deck has a strong matchup already against Goblins, and then you devote 3 board cards (BFT is best against Goblins) and then 3 dedicated board cards that will only ever see play against Goblins.
The matchup maxes out at about 80-85%, because you can mana screw and/or Goblins can draw the lackey nuts (which gets in before you can get to three mana to cast Tivadar in the first place). Or like: Double/Triple Vial, Double Ringleader (or Matron+Ringleader), gg.
Even without any sideboard, it'd be like what? 60%. Then you add BFTs and then Tivadar on top of that? I guess if you want to wreck one matchup, you want it to be Goblins (since they're still present a good 10% in any metagame), but it seems like overkill when the deck is pretty desperate for board cards to shore up other matchups.
There are cards like Thorn of Amethyst which would seem to do more (great against Solidarity, Black Tendrils Decks, Enchantress, etc.) that aren't played.
Aven Mindcensor, Aura of Silence, Cataclysm, Geddon, Sword of Fire/Ice....
I agree with you, man. I mean, the matchup isn't THAT good without Tivadar, but the logic is sound. This is actually a hot topic at Salvation atm. I like Mindcensor in that spot, myself.
I don't want to devote too many cards to combo because then you will have all this space for an opponent that is perfectly capable of beating you before you can land any of those spells.
I love it when Tacosnape reads me Seuss. It's the sodomy I don't like
Thanks. I myself was running the question through my head so I just had to ask ya your opinion.
Mindcensor seems like an awesome possible creature to fit into a sideboard. I never thought about running them before, but I am sure they probably make their way into many sideboards. I'd almost try to squeeze them into main if I could because of how savagely they would already very inconvenient antics of D&T. Between the bounce/flicker antics, ports, canonists, wastelands and the whole getting nibbled at by dorks aspect of the deck, I see Mindcensors causing a lot of disconnects and facepalms.
-It could be about four of anything and I would agree.
I agree. Burrenton Forge-Tender is not as good as Tivadar of Thorn in the Goblins matchup, but it's a much better card against all of the matchups and cards you have mentioned. It is great against Burn, Aggro Loam and Ichorid. And honestly I don't think it's all that bad against Goblins because it gives you another first turn answer for Lackey. I used to run 3 in the board, but I've cut them now and 3 Forge-Tenders is all there is for the Goblins match. I have to say I'm converted!
Going back in time a bit, thanks to everyone for suggestions on sideboarding and what to take in and out against certain matches! Heres my sideboard as it is now:
3 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Jotun Grunt
4 Abeyance (Orim's Chant better maybe, but I don't own any and I quite like the cantripping!)
3 Samurai of the Pale Curtain
1 Oblivion Ring
3 Glowrider
I've played against Ichorid successfully lately using the following sideboard strategy:
-3 Mangara, -3 Oblivion Ring, -1 Aether Vial, +1 Jotun Grunt, +3 Samurai of the Pale Curtain, +3 Burrenton Forge-Tender.
Against Burn I do the following:
-3 Mangara, -3 Oblivion Ring, +3 Burrenton Forge-Tender, +1 Jotun Grunt, +2 Glowrider.
But I'm not sure if Glowrider is the right choice. I know I have to take out Oblivion Ring because it's dead and Mangara because it's too slow, but what would be best to put in, Glowrider or Abeyance? Or maybe even Samurai for extra beat speed? It would be a little at odds with Grunt, but he's only in there to use Swords to Plowshares on...
And unforunately I haven't played aggro loam since I got some sideboard advice, so I haven't tested that advice out. Hopefully soon!
Orim's Chant is much better (than Abeyance), although if you already have Abeyance, you might be better off investing in other cards.
The -1 on the CC is a life saver in the tough matchup. It's quite easy to keep 1 untapped and still put a decent clock on the board, but it's much harder to keep two untapped but still put enough guys on the board to threaten a win.
Storm Combo can still draw into answers, or just cast Chant, Dark Ritual, or Thoughtseize to bait your Chant/Abeyance. You have to act quickly under Chant to either win or beat them down enough.
I disagree with Glowrider here. First, it can get in the way of topdecked Jitte or life-gain off of Swords or whatever. But more importantly, its ability is pretty much useless. Burn will not be limited by land in this matchup. Burn players have will have plenty of time to play out their hand contents before DnT can make the kill (esp. when they can cast Fanatics and Keldon Marauders for true cost).Against Burn I do the following:
-3 Mangara, -3 Oblivion Ring, +3 Burrenton Forge-Tender, +1 Jotun Grunt, +2 Glowrider.
Orim's Chant is better because of the 1cc? It makes sense that you can leave that one mana open on the play to threaten you've got it or to play it. Unforunately I haven't got them yet. I traded to complete my Abeyance playset at regionals a fortnight ago so I'm using them. I'll try to get my hands on Orim's Chant as I go and I'll put them in one by one.
If you disagree with Glowrider what do you recommend putting in? I would probably go Samurai of the Pale Curtain then, because it beats harder. Also, I thought about it and it doesn't really clash with Grunt in this matchup, because Burn doesn't have many permanents being removed from play and consequently the graveyard won't be thinned as much.
So the Burn sideboard would go:
-3 Mangara, -3 Oblivion Ring, +1 Jotun Grunt, +3 Forge Tender, +2 Samurai of the Pale Curtain
I can tell you are talking about this, but you have not played it out actually. It does not work out that way. The Burn player does not usually want to waste a spell zapping him. At the very least it sucks up a burn spell that would have hit me if he does. But Glowrider usually buys a lot of time. Not just one turn. It buys just one turn only if the Burn player realizes how much he needs to kill him. He is down at least one burn spell a turn while Glowrider is in play every turn after that. I had an opponent tell me that it screws up the math of his deck, and I think I know what he means. I am always happy to see Glowrider in my opening 7 in game two or three against Burn.
Glowrider definitely goes in against Burn.
Is the Glowrider ability cumulative? If two Glowriders are in play do non creature spells cost 2 more to cast?
Yes, it does.
I really like the idea of fitting Aven Mindcensor in the deck, especially if you play both wasteland and ports.
I have been messing around with a rebel version of the deck, inspired by Maëlig. So far it's been working out nicely, although I had to take out canonist and grunt from the main deck, which really weakens my combo matchup.
The decklist I have been testing for the last week or so, is this:
I haven't done much work with the sideboard, but right now it has cataclysm, grunt, chant and canonists.Code:Lands: 4 Wasteland 3 Rishadan Port 2 Flagstones of Trokair 4 Karakas 9 Plains Guys 4 Flickerwisp 3 Stonecloaker 4 Serra Avenger 2 Isamaru, Hound of Konda 3 Mangara of Corondor 3 Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero 3 Knight of the Holy Nimbus 1 Mirror Entity 1 Whipcorder Stuff 3 Oblivion Ring 4 Swords to Plowshares 3 Umezawa's Jitte 4 AEther Vial
With all the mana denial, in wastes and ports, Knight of the Holy Nimbus has really been shining. Oftentimes, your opponent had to pay for the regenerate ability, thus making him unable to do anything else, and I will just be fetching a new one with Lin Sivvi, or saving him with some of our combat tricks.
One of the nice tricks, which has won me many games, is to fetch a couple of guys with Lin and with 2-4 guys on the table, fetch Mirror Entity, and beat for 15. My opponents have never seen that one coming.
I would like to fit in 2 or 3 Aven Mindcensor, to further complement the land denial plan, and as a side effect strengthen the Knights regenerate ability. I will start out with -1 flickerwisp -2 isamaru +3 mindcensor. I am just afraid, that the lack of good onedrops (isamaru) might become a problem.
Children of Korlis? or Ramosian Sergeant? Both 1 cost Rebels that might work? Sergeant would fetch Whipcorder and Nimbus but not Entity or Lin Sivvi unforunately...
I think I played against your deck on MWS the other day when I was testing my Suicide Black list. I liked it! Lucky for me you didn't bust out Mirror Entity in time... I must admit I like that card too! He's great with Vial as well, which means in your deck there's 2 ways to get him into play at instant speed!
Hello, DnT thread! I'm not very experienced with the deck, so I'm open to your advices!
Here is my list:
// Lands
10 Plains
3 Rishadan Port
4 Karakas
4 Wasteland
// Creatures
3 Stonecloaker
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Flickerwisp
4 Serra Avenger
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Mangara of Corondor
3 Elvish Hexhunter - I'll explain
// Spells
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Umezawa's Jitte
4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
// Sideboard
SB: 1 Jotun Grunt
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Tivadar of Thorn
SB: 3 Aven Mindcensor - I like them in many MU
SB: 3 Children of Korlis- to fight Combo.
SB: 3 Burrenton Forge-Tender
SB: 2 Samurai of the Pail Curtain - mainly for Ichorid, but I'll test theese against Loam too.
The bad feeling about the deck was the lack of good 1-drops. 4 Vial+3 Isamaru are not comfortable for me. I read the thread, find some suggestions and... I don't like them all:
Mother of Runes
Mom can chumpblock, mom can protect from point removal, mom can give evasion but...
I can chumplock with Isamaru+Karakas, I can protect dudes with Stonecloacker/Vial+Flickerwisp, I already have fair number of flyers and hey, I thought I'm very tricky, but still aggro deck. Mom is too defensive IMHO.
Weathered Wayfarer
He can do some nice tricks and additional CA is good for this deck, but...
I found him to be too slow and if I'm on play, he is just 1/1 for the first 2-3 turns.
Figure of Destiny
This one is better 'cause they fear him and he can kick hard, but...
I already have a lot of things to do with my mana and I run 7 colorless lands, so most of the times he is just 2/2 for.
Akrasan Squire
One guy in my local shop runs soldier/wenee deck with this Squires and he swears they are good. Squire can kick for 2 early and power out flyers later, so he looks good, but... He just beats...
Elvish Hexhunter
Yeah, my personal choice. He's poor attacker, but I belive he belongs here and fits very well. If you resolve this dude early, many decks of the format need to answer him first. He is great proactive annoyance for opponent: no Counterbalance, no Standstill, no Survival, fuck Enchantress, no early Deed. The guy can damage very high number of good decks across format and, (the main reason), he helps to fight the cards we hate the most.
Please spare your thoughts about my choice! Oh, and more Ichorid hate maindeck can't be bad!
Another question is about the sideboard: I don't own Orim' Chant, they are quite expencive and they don't help me much in Combo MU. I want Children of Korlis in place of Chants for the same reason I like Hexhunter: kids are proactive and I can land them before opponent goes nutz and confuse him alot. IMHO that;s the way of DnT should play: small-medium, but very annoying dudes+some good spells+tricks and skill.
Thank you in advance!
Last edited by eq.firemind; 06-03-2009 at 04:50 AM.
Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way.
Stop thinking burn needs to play multiple spells after turn 3 or 4 (ie when glowriders comes in). In runs out of steam and is therefore forced into topdeck-mode quite quickly. And except if you have a big pressure of the board, it can really afford to wait and play 1 spell a turn. You need to be aggressive in this MU.
Yey! Great to see some people converting to the rebel engine. I've done quite alot of testing on this, so here are a few thoughts. First, I'd advise running 4 KotHN. First I was playing 3 and 1 whipcorder like you, then I realized that it's one of those card that really gets better in multiples. Especially late game, it can sometimes be important to have these 4 knights so that 1 or 2 can survive a big sweeper. Or simply in big attack phases when there are a few bigger blockers on the board (who said goyf?). Also, you have to play at least 1 children of Korlis. I like it MD because it can be usefull in quite a few situations, but SB is also fine. It really shines against burn/sligh, ichorid, combo and aggro in general (although you really shouldn't count on it to beat gobs). Don't forget you can make a soft-lock with it by getting it back into play each turn for 4 mana (a bit comparable to the Genesis + spore frog "lock"). That's why imo you don't need more than 1. I'm not sold on mirror entity, I tend to think it's a bit risky since it's only good when you've over-commited (and dangerously exposed yourself to a sweeper), but it does seem quite good in certain MUs. I admit I haven't done any testing here. One last word of warning : don't make the rebel engine the core of the deck. You shouldn't start packing ramosian sergeant and the rest, the deck really can't support more mana commitment and an increased slowness. I'd say it's already borderline on the speed issue.
I will try out -1 whipcorder +1 Knight. I admit, that whipcorder hasn't been all that great.
I tried the children of korlis at first, but I didn't really like it. I had to spend to many resources to make it effective, and I would rather just go about winning with Knights and Mirror Entity (ME). Which leads me to talking about that very card, ME. It has really been the reason why I have stuck with the rebel engine. The hardest part is to know when to "overextend." I would never do that against Landstill for example. But against merfolks or threshold, I'm quite sure that would be my plan. You you really only need 3 or 4 guys, including ME. When you pull the trick off, you will most likely have at least 5 lands on the table, which means you are attacking for 15 or 20. And oftentimes I only need to deal 10-15 damage, because of fetches and early beats.
So all in all, I have really been impressed with ME.
Also, it allows you to do some nice tricks against merfolks or slivers, which they didn't count on.
I do, however, think that there are some serious downsides of the rebel engine. It really shines against threshold and other aggro control or countertop decks, but against faster decks, like zoo, goblins or elfs (these are the match-ups I have been playing), it is really too slow, and I believe Canonist and grunts would have made a difference, since they come online ealier than Lin Sivvi. These problems might be sorted out by playing Children of Korlis, so i will try to fit in one of those.
I know about the children of korlis and lin sivvi soft-lock, and it's actually pretty neat, but I didn't play any match-ups where it could be useful, so I removed it from the deck. Then I played a couple of games yesterday, where it would have been awesome, so that is also one of the reasons why I will try one maindeck again.
That Rebel thing is cute...
I'm new to the deck, but I figured out Landstill is bad for DnT. How Rebels help you to solve this? Hmm... Zoo/Sligh can be a problem (especially after they side in Pyroclasm). How Rebels help you here (kinda slow, don't you think)? Ichorid/storm combo needs faster answers.
And on general, I can't figure out how Rebels help us with our beatdown plan. We already have slow, but solid lock: Mangara+Karakas. Why do we need more? Also, Rebels have no impact on opponent when you just played them. You need to establish engine to make them sick. No, really: spend 3 mana/Vial activation on Lin, wait, spend even more mana, but again, no huge impact on opponent's gameplan.
Also, say, Mangara has alot of synergys outside Karakas. Hey, even resetting Grunt with Cloaker/Wisp wins games. Rebels have poor synergy with other parts of the deck.
With my (still little) expirience with the deck I have problems in early game. If I establish some early disruption, don't fall to sweeper (EE mostly), handle uberfast dudes (Goblins, Zoo creatures), somehow kick early CB+Top (Vial, O-ring or my personal trick:Elvish Hexhunter), or just put whenees, then it's my game now. I can trick opponent, I can set Mangara, I can just beat with flyers+jitte. The problem is to survive/disrupt opponent's gameplan in early game, not in mid-late. That's why I don't understand why Rebels are good in DnT. I think they can be good in faster White Whenee as mid-late gameplan, but clearly not in DnT.
So, here are my questions to people who are more familiar with Rebel DnT:
1) How rebels solve problematic matchups: Landstill, Rock, Zoo(with Pridemage)?
2) Don't you think the deck became to slow? (2-3 Isamaru + 4 Vial = 6-7 turn 1 offensive cards, IMHO not enough for early offence)
Still can't test Children of Korlis against combo (I run 4 in SB in place of Orim's Chant). Damn MWS newbies! They play combo so bad that they autoscoop to Canonist or play Tendrils for 20 with Children in play and call me a noob for playing "anticombo" deck afterwards!
But kids saved my ass against couple of Burns (on par with Forge-Tender games 2 and 3 Burn has low to no chances) and once against Intuition/Demigod (Again, F-tender shined here too), so I'm already positive on kids 'cause they can help not only in 1 matchup. Oh, and they kick Ichorid too.
I also edited wy decklist above: -1 Port, +1 Plains. I felt low on
Also -4 Chant, -1 Tivadar of Thorn, +3 Children of Korlis, +2 Samurai of the Pail Curtain.
Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way.
Knowing Your build Dave and knowing the burn deck You're trying to side against (I can't believe I'm telling You how to do this!) I'd go - 3 Mangara, - 3 Oblivion Ring, - 1 Serra Avenger, + 4 Abeyance, + 3 Burrenton Forge-Tender
Abeyance is a big speed bump if You fire it off at the start of burns upkeep, that way its shuts down the sorcery speed stuff for that turn and the forge-tenders get You around the board sweepers
Team Face Palm
I know, that including the rebel engine weakens the combo matchup a lot, but it strengthens other matchups, as I will point out in a minute
This has to be seen in perspective. You can't rely on having the mangara+karakas lock every game, simply because we have no form of card draw. Even if you get mangara and karakas into play, that does not ensure you have won, as it is easily disrupted with instant speed spot removal. That said, if you get mangara lock working, you should win.And on general, I can't figure out how Rebels help us with our beatdown plan. We already have slow, but solid lock: Mangara+Karakas. Why do we need more? Also, Rebels have no impact on opponent when you just played them. You need to establish engine to make them sick. No, really: spend 3 mana/Vial activation on Lin, wait, spend even more mana, but again, no huge impact on opponent's gameplan.
The fact is, though, that if you get Lin Sivvi going, which means, you get her into play, and she lives for a turn, then you can overwhelm most decks with creatures. This means that we have 6 creatures, which wins if we get them going (3 mangara + 3 Lin), which is quite possible in almost every game.
I don't think rebels have poor synergy with the rest of the deck. But I must say, rebels perform best, if you have a heavy emphasis on mana denial, in wasteland and port. If you have that, it will make it hard for your opponent to get rid of Knight of the Holy Nimbus, which is exactly what we want, we just get it, without the need of flickerwisp+vial (again, a 2 card combo which we can't rely on) or stonecloaker. He is a threat and an annoyance of his own.Also, say, Mangara has alot of synergys outside Karakas. Hey, even resetting Grunt with Cloaker/Wisp wins games. Rebels have poor synergy with other parts of the deck.
Early CB+Top happens VERY rarely, and even more so with our mana denial. It is very uncommon for me to have problems against CB+Top.With my (still little) expirience with the deck I have problems in early game. If I establish some early disruption, don't fall to sweeper (EE mostly), handle uberfast dudes (Goblins, Zoo creatures), somehow kick early CB+Top (Vial, O-ring or my personal trick:Elvish Hexhunter), or just put whenees, then it's my game now. I can trick opponent, I can set Mangara, I can just beat with flyers+jitte. The problem is to survive/disrupt opponent's gameplan in early game, not in mid-late. That's why I don't understand why Rebels are good in DnT. I think they can be good in faster White Whenee as mid-late gameplan, but clearly not in DnT.
I have to admit though, that überfast dudes is a problem, but children of korlis might solve some of that, I don't know!
Landstill: This is a problem, but it gives us the power to get dudes into play, without playing them besides using Vial. As I have already said, we can't count on having vial every starting hand, and we can't count on, that it sticks, so rebels (Lin) gives us a great way to handle that. I haven't been playing this matchup, so this is purely what I can figure from what I have tried in other matches.So, here are my questions to people who are more familiar with Rebel DnT:
1) How rebels solve problematic matchups: Landstill, Rock, Zoo(with Pridemage)?
Rock: I haven't played this matchup, but i figure this is pretty bad to start with, and I don't think rebels made it worse.
Zoo: This have become more bad, i guess, as we don't have as many relevant 2-drops.
The standard list, which performs very well, only have 3 Isamaru + 4 vial, I run only 1 isamaru less, so I don't see how that changes anything. What I am sure changes something is the lack of 2-drops, namely canonist, who slows most decks somewhat.2) Don't you think the deck became to slow? (2-3 Isamaru + 4 Vial = 6-7 turn 1 offensive cards, IMHO not enough for early offence)
Sure, this is what I figure too, but what haven't been trying is doing that every turn. It ties up 4 mana, but is quite a nice softlock.Still can't test Children of Korlis against combo (I run 4 in SB in place of Orim's Chant). Damn MWS newbies! They play combo so bad that they autoscoop to Canonist or play Tendrils for 20 with Children in play and call me a noob for playing "anticombo" deck afterwards!
But kids saved my ass against couple of Burns (on par with Forge-Tender games 2 and 3 Burn has low to no chances) and once against Intuition/Demigod (Again, F-tender shined here too), so I'm already positive on kids 'cause they can help not only in 1 matchup. Oh, and they kick Ichorid too.
I think you played one land too few to start with. Port is quite mana intensive to use, and you only run 21 lands.I also edited wy decklist above: -1 Port, +1 Plains. I felt low on
Also -4 Chant, -1 Tivadar of Thorn, +3 Children of Korlis, +2 Samurai of the Pail Curtain.
I usually have 5+ lands out, if I haven't boarded cataclysm in, which makes it possible to do a lot of tricks, and that is what wins games.
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