Next update will probably include errata to multiply all power and toughness numbers by 1000 to make the transition for the yu-gi-oh players even easier.
These updates are all pretty "Meh" as Nightmare said, but the combat phase 1 makes me glad I quit type 2 .
I'll keep playing Legacy with friends using the current rules, but I think this is a strong indicator that the target market has switched and if your not an illiterate 13 yr old with inability to do basic math , your not in it.
Originally Posted by Cait_Sith
The people are becoming more and more stupid, and the game must adapt.
F*** this s***. I was all "well, it's okey, this is right, this sound right, i'll get used to this, mmh this new dual sucks ass, is worse than nimbus maze... wait wut??"
"Did they just nerfed red to hell? Wtf. Goodbye magic"
Those were fun times.
Let me be the first to say
You're all over-reacting. It's about half as big a deal as you're making it. Sure, some creatures get nerfed. Who cares, really? Why do you all assign so much personal and emotional attachment to pieces of cardboard?
Shit, Nightmare hasn't been a good card in a decade. I'm still here.
I was here before 6th edition changes. I'm here now.
I was here before M10 changes. I'll be around tomorrow.
Would you like to know more?
Calling everyone a pussy is just your schtick though. As complaining is feminine, complaining about complainers is somehow macho, that's just the insane troll logic of the world, I guess.You're all over-reacting.
I agree, It's not like Goyf has any combat abilities anyway...
If Morphling/Tog/Dryad/Baloth etc were still the kill of choice, then things would be different!
"Want all, lose all."
Great quote ;-)Okay let's look at this one thing at a time. This is the worst thing that I can think that will ever happen to the game if these rules are enforced. Mainly though is the interrupts. I feel that WOTC is trying to make everything like portal to make portal more attractive to new players. Portal is an okay set on its good day. How many times have you seen an avid magic player buying portal? Maybe buying the pre-constructed deck to get the Armageddon. How many packs of portal two do you think John Finkel has bought?
1. No more interrupts.
This is true. But this doesn't mean that counterspells will go away. Counterspell and all other old interrupts will be played as instants. This has very little effect on game play.
WHAT!? Think about it. Okay yes the one thing that pops up in everyone's mind is counterspell. Sure it'll work exactly like it does now. That means that interrupts will be the same right? WRONG! Think of Fork. Fork can now be responded to. That means that you can no longer Fork a capsize to capsize a disk before they can blow it. (Jim) Also, since there is no longer an interrupt phase the fork is just as slow as the original spell if its an instant. That defeats the prupose of its original speed. This makes fork worth less monatarally and in play value. Also, does that mean that if I fork a spell with buyback (in response to their spell?) I have to wait for their spell to resolve or do I still get my spell resolution faster than theirs?
Next big interrupt, Sleight of mind. This can now be responded to. I'll cast gloom. Sligh says okay. I say sleight to red, he says in response before your sleight takes effect I will shock you shock you incinerate you. Okay I let sleight resolve now. Is this the intent of the card!? NO.
Next big set of interrupts. Ertai and his minions.(i.e. Disruptive student, Vodalian Mage, Mundungu) Okay I have out Ertai. I say go. Opponent says shock Ertai. I tap Ertai and counter. He says in response to counter (??) he shocks him again. I laugh at him as I twiddle Ertai and counter a second time. Again this is not the intent of the card nor the game.
Next big question comes from the new sleeping creatures. They awaken during the "successfully cast" part of a spell. The 5 steps of a spell are as follows: 1) announcement, 2) Interrupt phase(deleted), 3) Successfully cast, 4) responses, 5) resolution. Okay with the interrupt phase gone when does "successfully cast" happen? I am assuming (you know what happens when you do that) that WOTC has seen past this and is going to make the steps: announcement, instants(all counters and responses together), successfully cast, resolution.
2. No more Damage Prevention Phase.
This is true, but it doesn't mean no more damage prevention. You'll still be able to play Healing Salve in response to my Lightning Bolt and prevent the damage.
Not too rules guru'ish about damage prevention so I don't see much of a change here. I can see that it will get really confusing about people who are acquainted with the rules now. Player asks, "How can you prevent the lightning bolt damage if you respond to the lightning bolt? If in response the damage hasn't hit you yet."
3. No more Mana Pool.
This is incorrect. You'll still have a Mana Pool. However, if you wish, you'll be allowed to play a spell then tap your lands to pay for it.
This doesn't really have much effect on the player as much as it does judges. What happens then they announce the spell and then decide they can't pay the mana for it? Is it going to be counted as "showing your opponent your hand" which is not an infraction of the rules or misrepresentation of a card?
4. Tapped artifacts will function normally. (A tapped Winter Orb will still be turned on and have its normal effect.) This is true. We've decided to remove the rule from the rulebook and instead add it to the cards. Expect to see artifacts like "As long as this card is untapped, creatures can't attack."
This is really more like errata than anything. WOTC will probably errata EVERY card but if it doesn't I'm sure someone will find some ultra sneaky combo that will work because he can now use the tapped artifact because WOTC forgot to errata that one card.
Anything else I've left off? People voice your opinion on this to WOTC! This game is about players. It's us who love to play the game, its us that must tell WOTC what they are doing is not good for the game at all.
http://www.classicdojo.org/b985/bif.981126bge.txt
And this new combat rules mean that dumb beefy creatures are even better now 'cause they are unaffected with this change.
Wait, what? Even better Tarmo? I can't chump it and still do something?
Fuck, it's already boring...
Sidenote: waining leads to nowhere. But we all need to speak our mind sometimes. I think we need to reexamine popular decks and see wich decks will be affected more than others.
I'll start:
Death and Taxes: RIP or some huge changes to stay alive...
Team America: unaffected.
Burn: Fanatic is not so hot, but it's not very big problem. Slightly
Goblins: Now green men need good 1-drop even more.
Ichorid: well, Fanatic is bad now, so many Gobbs and Burn will drop him, so 1 less problem for Dredge.
Dreadstill: unaffected
Main Question: I wonder how will new rules calculate First Strike and Double Strike. Can I cast/play/whatever something between first strike damage step and normal damage step? How will triggers resolve? Can someone enlighten me?
Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way.
I actually like that combat damage works as it did pre-sixth. Honestly, how many times had you to explain to a new player why your combat trick worked right after doing it? Because I've had to do it multiple times. Sure the game loses a lot of cute combat tricks, which I'll miss, but saying that not using the stack doesn't make sense when that's how the game was initially designed and worked up to Mercadian Masques is overreacting.
One of the gripes about sixth edition rules was that it made Fanatic and Morphling a whole lot better, because they were printed with fifth edition in mind. Now that they work as they did originally people whine because they aren't as good anymore. I'm the only one that finds that funny?
The only change that seems needlessly complex is the combat assigning rules, but it might be partly due to using the most complex example to show all interactions at once. Still, I don't know what's the problem with dividing damage as you wish, specially when that AWESOME OOZE already does that, but it must be there for some obscure reason that they haven't explained.
The only change that really made me sad is that I no longer can stack lifelink, which I really liked; at least it doesn't have the Children of Korlis syndrome of arriving too late to save you. Fortunately Essence Sliver will still stack as usual, which is the only interaction I can think of that would be counterproductive.
And I welcome the token ownership change. In multiplayer, it was stupid that when I lose, you suddenly lose your sheep token that I created with Ovinomancer, or the saprolings you got from Saproling Cluster. I feel sorry for all those people with brand decks, because they were cool. In fact, I think it was Mark Gottlieb who created the deck in first place (unless he got the idea from one of his readers), so this change must have been hard for him, too.
Of course you can. You just can't do combat damage + something else.
Interesting view on the subject. Though I still think the changes are a bad idea, I take comfort in this article. Thanks man.
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's probably delicious.
Team ADHD-To resist is to piss in the wind. Anyone who does will end up smelling.
This.
The creature blocking rule is slightly annoying, it's how me and my friends originally interpreted the rules, and is slightly worse, as I can't attack my 5/5 into a 5/5 and 1/1.
The not using the Stack is fine. Mishra's Factory pumping itself is not how it's meant to be. Fanatic dealing combat damage and running off to kill someone else doesn't make sense.
Mana Burn barely affects anything, it's not like Storm will suddenly rip up Legacy because they don't burn for a bit when they fizzle. Neither an improvement or a loss.
Mana pools emptying more often barely changes anything.
Simultaneous Mulligans - Slight Improvement.
All others i'll probably not notice.
Then Let me be the second then.
Look, am I happy about the changes? Not really. Will the game survive? Sure. Will we all learn to live with them? We got over everything else.
Bitch now. Then get over it. Then forget it ever happened.
The multiple creature blocking rule is about as intuitive as...something that's really unintuitive. Kind of a strange move considering all the others to make the game easier to pick up. Also, it makes pump spells great on defense.
I'm actually a fan of changing the names to battlefield and exiled, though I suppose I will miss wishing up a used cabal therapy.
I've never seen him so upset....or ever before.
I don't understand combat any more...
As someone who didn't get competitive about Magic until post-6th Ed. rules, I'm curious as to the number of people impacted during that change versus the number impacted now. How much has the game grown/shrunk in 10 years? From my perspective, it feels like there will be a lot of people who will have to retrain themselves to play according to the new rules, I'm just wondering if it's impacting significantly more than the 6th Ed. changes did.
On (the combat phase changes) topic: It's different, and it does remove many of the more complex interactions to which we're all accustomed. I, like probably 98% of you reading this, enjoyed the mental challenges of the combat phase, as the mental challenges of Magic are largely what attracts me to the game. At the same time, we'll get used to it. It won't be the same; it's possible it won't be better and we'll start threads and reminisce about the glory days of Mogg Fanatic, but it's probable that within a year we'll have mostly forgotten about the old combat interactions.
No one likes change, myself included, but I'm willing to give it a go with these new rules. If they really suck and make the game significantly less fun, well, I'm not sure what I'll do. But for now, I'm just going to roll with it.
Why not? You, as the attacker chooses the order which the creatures are dealt damage.
You can still do that. Block with the factory, and before you go on to the damage step, you tap you factory to pump itself.The not using the Stack is fine. Mishra's Factory pumping itself is not how it's meant to be.
The only thing this is preventing, is the tricks you could do, while damage was on the stack, like sacrifice Quasali Pridemage, or returning the creature to hand with Stonecloaker.
Hmmm... The big complaint I hear is this, "I can't sckool scrubs anymore!" good. Because any "scrub" you needed superior rules knowledge to beat, rather than tight play, good deck design, sound mulagining, and the rest of it, should have had a game on you. I am trying to imagine Kobe Bryant bragging, "...and then they got a technical, right before the 3 went in, and we beat them by 2!!! Suckaz!" Fuck that noise. I don't even think these new rules are simpler, just different and I guess more intuitive. The life link change is for sure more intuitive "so my life link creature can't give me life when I need it most?" right, only when you don't need it. "Great fucking ability."
But really, if you're sentimental about that time you should have lost, but didn't because your opponent was inexperienced, grow up. You know what's cool? beating good players who don't make mistakes. Focus on that.
LED, LED, Announce my intention to play Yawgmoth's Bargain...
This is not the problem; the fact that you can't make awesome gamebreaking plays anymore during combat is. Regardless the competance of your opponent.
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's probably delicious.
Team ADHD-To resist is to piss in the wind. Anyone who does will end up smelling.
This change reminds me of why I got out of WoW. I needed something huge to sway me off the crack.
The only real part I am annoyed at is how they messed with the combat step. Combat tricks make limited fun instead of, "Oh look I dropped a guy bigger than yours, I guess I win."
Co-Founder of Team Awesome - I heard Randy Buehler say a while back that good players give themselves the most number of turns to find the answer.
The Source on MTGO - Predator8785 and RockOut
I don't care much about the new nomenclature of certain mechanics or gamezones since I will keep my cards asian anyway if possible.
The only point that disturbes me so far is the mana-issue:
No manaburn and that you won't be able to float a mana during the Upkeep and take it to the end of the draw step.
This will make Mystical Tutor and Lion's Eye Diamond a bit weaker I guess. And Rishadan Port a bit stronger.
And on the other hand since I have started to play Vintage again after some time, it's kinda absurd that people won't ever die to their Mana Drains anymore.
Things like Eladamri's Vineyard and/or Magus of the Vineyard will get stronger as well.
It's also going to be way harder for Aggrodecks and Burn to circumvent Pulse of the Fields efficiently.
Team SPOD
<Der_imaginäre_Freund> props:
Adan for being the NQG God (drawer)
I'm just coming back from lunchbreak where i took the chance to read a printout of Forsythe and Gottlieb's article. I haven't had the chance to read through the entire thread and just eye-scanned Nightmare's article very quickly but hope to read all more calmly this evening after work. So this post can be repetitive but i just wanted to share some of my first impressions.
These changes were not necessary.
Forsythe/Gottlieb attempt to justify each one of them but accomplish very little. To say that a rule is "arbitrary", or that the stack is difficult to understand, or than "a ton" of casual players play with their "own messy version of the rules" do not justify any change. At all.
Forsythe/Gottlieb seem to ignore that players are not stupid.
Yes, the word "play" has various meanings. In my expierence (both while learning and teaching others) it wouldn't take more than one or two minutes to clarify that. The new words and phrases "cast", "battlefield", "exile", "beginning of end step" only makes learning the rules a little bit more difficult since new players must learn now that "cast" also means "play" in the old cards but "in play" is the "battlefield", etc. This is because i doubt that my Elvish Piper and Phage will change wording after 11th July.
It is not the end of Magic.
I could make many more comments on Forsythe/Gottlieb's article -and i i wish i could but i really don't have much time nor i think it would be of any use-, especially about the fact that it is so badly written and most points so poorly justified. Trying to make a cool judgement, the rules change seems a very poor attempt to simplify a strategy game -that didn't need simplification- with the only goal of gaining more new costumers. I hope it works and i hope it doesn't. I love Magic and understand that the continous support of players has made the game part of my life for many years and i hope it lives longer -even if i had to quit eventually. On the other hand, it pisses me off that a bunch of idiots (Forsythe/Gottlieb and Co) feel free to go and modify the rules at their leisure for no apparent reason. The changes won't make the game any worse just as they won't improve anything; they'll just make for some slightly different aspects, some of which will result annoying for (most) old and (some) new players, which doesn't seem necessary in the first place.
So let's just learn the new rules and ignore stupid words like battlefield and we should be fine.
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