Maybe Lightning Crafter will become more playable? He can deal 3 damage every turn and it's possible to combine this damage with combat damage from other goblins. He can also also kill a 5/6 Goyfs, on his own, while defending. Being 4 mana gives him a nice position on the vials curve (Ringleader) for suprice vials. Matron/Ringleader + Crafter is just sexy.
Tarfire seems awful to me, I'd sooner run Lightning Bolt and at least have a shot at taking out Goyf. Nameless Inversion seems only randomly useful as it typically doesn't take out Goyf, remember that statebased effects are checked before the spell resolves thus Goyf counts Tribal as well. Gempalm seems infinitely better than both options to me and with 4 Incinerator and 4 Weirding it seems that the removal count is enough already.
Currently I think there are 2 good paths to take for Goblins, one is RB with Frogtosser and Warren Weirding and no Ports. The other is Mono R, which I vastly prefer because of the stable manabase and Rishadan Port.
What I'm currently testing is this:
4 of each uncontested inclusions: Lackey/Vial/Piledriver/Warchief/Matron/Ringleader
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Mogg War Marshal
2 Skirk Prospector
3 Siege Gang Commander
15 Mountain
4 Port
4 Wasteland
Skirk Prospector is probably the weakest card in the deck but together with Mogg War Marshal and Matron you can power out Siege Gangs pretty quickly and as a result seems worthy of testing time. If he turns out to play like a champ I might switch to 3. Mogg War Marshal on the other hand has been very good. Against the more aggressive decks it gives you the time to stabilize and get SGC's and Ringleaders online as it chumps Goyfs, Nacatls, Shades etc. Against control decks he's good too serving a very different role in pumping Piledriver to swing for the win quickly and basically outnumbering their removal spells.
If you see this GreenOne, I'd like to know how it performs for you in testing.
The biggest selling point for Mono R is obviously the manabase, which is awesome. You take 0 damage from your mana and you are almost immune to Wasteland and Stifle. I am still trying to figure out a way to go up to 24 mana so that might mean dropping a SGC, a Skirk Prospector or a Mogg War Marshal.
One of the biggest downsides is that this deck is probably the most suspectible to Engineered Plague of all the variations out there. Thus some sideboard measures seem to be needed. I'm thinking about some Goblin Kings as they pump the myriad of tokens as well.
A possible sideboard could look like this:
4 Chalice of the Void (I still love these not only against combo but also against Burn and Zoo)
4 Relic of Progenitus (Eva Green, Tempo Thresh, Aggro Loam)
4 Pyrokinesis (Tribal, Zoo, Affinity and random aggro)
The last 3 slots I would split between:
Goblin King, Red Elemental Blast and Goblin Tinkerer depending on the expected metagame.
Prospector seemed to me the easier of the substitutes for Fanatic IF we don't wanna play it anymore (in monored). Fanatic still has its uses in taking down mana critters (we're still a mana denial deck with monored thanks to Rishadans), pesky Confidants and add a damage to our incinerators. It has become bad in combat, but still don't know if there's something better in monored.Originally Posted by Mantis
Prospector's ability of making all your subsequent spells dodge daze, wrecking bridges like there's no tomorrow, and the synergy with War Marshall are good.
Look into Boartusk Liege before Goblin King. It actually make a difference and doesn't suck in the mirror. I'm playing 2-3 in the board against plague and Pyroclasm.
That said, the new combat step needs total retesting. The Rb/Rg/Rgb version might have become better than monored with this passage.
Currently Playing: Nourishing Lich.Deck
Current Record: 1-83-2
I firmly believe that we NEED to have at least 10 1-drops, preferably 11. As such, I did a brief review of some of the possibilities...
Possible replacements for Mogg Fanatic:
Goblin Grappler/Frenzied Goblin
Pro: Can help Piledriver reach opponent.
Con: Not very good on its own.
Goblin Sledder
Pro: Can help pump goblins to our advantage.
Con: Combat tricks are not as good with the new rules.
Goblin Taskmaster
Pro: Can be pumped in late game somewhat similar to Basking Rootwalla; can also be played morphed under Engineered Plague.
Con: Does not pump back end, requires 2 mana for +1 power.
Goblin Vandal
Pro: Can take care of all pesky artifacts…
Con: That is, if he can make it through on the attack.
Mogg Sentry
Pro: Helps increase damage by becoming a 3/3 if opponent counters or destroys any of our goblins pre-attack phase.
Con: Opponent can play around this ability.
Ragin Goblin (I know, I know)
Pro: Fast, aggressive beater that doesn’t need Warchief to pump Pildriver the turn it comes into play; almost guarantees 1 damage on turn 1.
Con: Not the most impressive card in the later game.
Skirk Prospector
Pro: Can hasten out Warchiefs, protects against Dredge
Con: We want more goblins on the field, not less typically; unimpressive on its own.
Tattermunge Maniac
Pro: Aggressive Turn 1 drop
Con: Drawback could be a factor mid to late game.
Knucklebone Witch
Pro: Can become fearsome with a bit of removal.
Con: If creatures are dying, why wouldn’t they just kill this when it becomes an issue?
So...
I am tempted to try some sort of tutorable variation here. What about 1 Goblin Grappler, 1 Mogg Fanatic, 1 Tarfire, 1 Nameless Inversion? Mogg Sentry intrigues me a bit, because we often are casting a lot of things pre-combat phase, forcing opponents to counter or kill things. Tattermunge Maniac could also be a factor here, but as a 2-3 of, perhaps.
Or maybe I am being ridiculous and should just mulligan more aggressively, as other posters seem to be leaning. However, if we can squeeze in a couple of decent utility Goblins on the low end to keep our curve, I think it might be worth it.
I'm not so sure we need more 1-drops on the play, but we need to be doing something before turn two on the draw to avoid getting smashed in a fast format.
I'm trying Gemstone Caverns out as a 2-of, retardedly enough. I'm aware that I'm reaching, but hey.
Nice idea. It might work. Seriously.
Currently Playing: Nourishing Lich.Deck
Current Record: 1-83-2
Adding Stingscourger generally allows you to use the Vial when it's at two counters; that's about the time when you want to bounce the Goyf or whatever anyways. That said, if you must, you can run Mogg War Marshal or some such in that slot instead.
Why no MD Relics now?
Yea, it's now an even better idea considering that it does what fanatic used to do against dredge, as well as hinder goyf (which has gotten slightly better since all vanilla creatures are now slightly better) and stalker.
I run 3 MD relics, and like them.
I have 3 Stingscourer, and really don't want to take them out.
Think that Warmarchal can be great, but can't find slots for him, since I will not run without Stingscourer neither Relics.
Also, Liege>King. That's a fact.
Super Bizarros Team. Beating everything with small green dudes and big waves.
I would definitely go for Thoughtseize as a replacement for fanatic, all the goblin type replacements suck and do not nearly have the same impact as thoughtseize would. Or just keep on playing Mogg Fanatic, I sacrificed it more often to get rid of Dark Confidant than use it for anything else.
And maybe we get lucky and they print a decent 1 drop goblin. If they're fair they compensate us for this drastic rules change.
And if anyone can tell me why Frogtosser is an option so suddenly and why Ports are not as good anymore with these new rules? I don't get it.
Last edited by Nelis; 06-11-2009 at 06:51 PM. Reason: Your mum told me so. :P
Ports are beter with new rules, if I understand right.
And Frogtosser has always been an aoption, only dismissed too quickly.
Thoughtseize does seems ok, since can hit creatures, but is a non-goblin... =/
Super Bizarros Team. Beating everything with small green dudes and big waves.
It may be worth noting that should you run MD earwig squads, a first turn prospector can facilitate a second turn prowled squad, which in addition to t1 lackey -> lackey trigger put in chief/frogtosser prowl squad are about our only outs against combo, and can help improve MUs against enchantress, (RFG the three wincons or moats and a solitary if they have 1 in hand) plagues post SB, and provides a proactive extirpate attached to a hefty 5/3 turn two against decks in the dark.
I do, however, fancy the idea of a singleton Lightning crafter.
I get it now actually, it was just too tired yesterday. If you play frogtosser and other 2 drops I must agree with Ports not being good enough
I never really liked frogtosser, does not do anything on it's own, and is a terrible top deck as well.
As soon as it comes to sideboarding it's no problem siding in Thoughtseize or other non-goblins and we take it for granted that Ringleader is a bit less effective. That's why I personally never really saw a problem running it main. The biggest problem to me always was that I only had 2 free slots main for thoughtseize which I think is too little.
Maybe it's worth getting into food chain goblins?
Three really interesting suggestions, all of which I personally like better than Fanatic even under the 'old' rules.
Gemstone Caverns is definately to try out, together with taking aggressive mulligans it would mean you always have something to do on turn 1. The problem with the card is that it provides colorless mana on the play, so what would you remove for it? I guess I would just remove 2 Fanatics for 2 Caverns in Taco's list or maybe 1 Hovel/Mountain + 1 Fanatic. In any case, Taco's list seems like the best list out there to take advanatge of Caverns as it gets away with not running Ports.
Skirk Prospector with Earwig Squad is interesting and something I have considered many times in the past. Right now it seems decent for the reasons Media noted. It's reasonable to assume a turn 2 Earwig Squad if you draw one. That said, after we cut the Fanatics for Prospectors we still have to find a way to make room for at least 2 Earwig Squads and I would prefer 3 or 4 actually. Making room for 3/4 Skirk, 2/3 Earwig and 4 Frogtosser seems almost impossible without cutting into the core Goblins. It would be nice to see a list, Media?
The power of Thoughtseize must not be underestimated as well. Nelis has a good point, I've heard a lot of players tell me how versatile Seize was in tournament play yet we dismiss it somehow. Looks like a great replacement for Seize as well. I think this is the easiest fit and it will definately shore up some bad matchups. The argument that Ringleader, while true isn't all that relevant too often anyway. Once you have the mana up and resolve stuff like Ringleader you should probably be in a good position anyway most of the time and running out of gas is unlikely with mana usually being the ratelimiting step. I know I'm making a gross oversimplification of reality here, but that's how most games play out for me anyway. I rarely won a game because I was able to hit Mogg Fanatics of Ringleader but I often lost games because I didn't disrupt my opponent enough.
EDIT: I forgot to address Relic. I don't like it maindeck actually. It's only amazing against Tempo Thresh (Team America), Eva Green, Ichorid and Aggro Loam which definately don't make up the majority of the metagame. It suffers from the following problem, you drop it on turn 1 but then you need to spare a mana somewhere to get a card out of it. Instead I'd rather tap out to either Port or Waste my opponent or to play Goblins and beat face. After turn 1 we rarely have problems spending our mana. A more likely scenario would be that you either topdeck it or you have a Vial or Lackey in hand together with Relic that just plain sucks.
I still running Mogg fanatic.
There is no better goblin drop (except lackey) in the first turn.
In th ebggining i was scared and etc. but now, i calm down and face this wizards shit. We will show them that Fanatic still a good card...
Battle doesn't need a purpose; the battle is its own purpose. You don't ask why a plague spreads or a field burns. Don't ask why I fight.
Black Knight
After a testing session, I've decided the changes in my monored list post M10.
My list before:
the 4ofs+
15 Mountains
4+4 Port, Waste
4 Fanatic
3 Mogg War Marshal
2 SGC
4 Gempalm
My list post M10
-2 Fanatic
+1 Gemstone Caverns (good with ports and with the increased number of 2 drops)
+1 Mogg War Marshal
This leaves me with 2 Fanatics, which are still good dealing with X/1s and making incinerator better. 10 1cc spells (+1 caverns on the draw) should be enough for making a good number of turn 1 plays.
Mogg Fanatic is probably still the best 1cc goblin drop after lackey.
Currently Playing: Nourishing Lich.Deck
Current Record: 1-83-2
Hi there,
Since M10 is looming on the horizon, I thought that I'll play with Fanatics this weekend. I settled on Mono-Red, as I like the pain-free, stifle-proof manabase a lot. First, the maindeck:
16 Mountain
4 Waste
4 Port
4 Vial
4 Lackey
4 Fanatic
4 Driver
4 Chief
4 Matron
4 Ring
3 Incinerator
2 SGC
2 Stingscourger
1 Goblin Tinkerer
The maindeck is pretty basic. I like 24 lands since Goblins need quite a lot of mana and I'm almost always happy to draw land. Three Gempalms and two Scourgers because I'm expecting a creature-heavy metagame with a few heavy hitters that Gempalm cant handle.
What I'm not so sure about is the Tinkerer. How have your experiences been with maindeck Tinkerer? Sometimes he's absolutely amazing (e.g. against Dreadnought and Factories), but often he's useless. If you would relegate Tinkerer to the SB, what card would you play maindeck?
For the sake of testing, would you mind playing with -1 Mountain and +1 Gemstone Cavers, and tell us how it goes? 15 Basics should be enough and Caverns almost count as half a red mana source.
Currently Playing: Nourishing Lich.Deck
Current Record: 1-83-2
Mishra's Factory is never a problem and Dreadnought usually comes down before Tinkerer and after that you don't get to stick it. You can't rely on it to come down before Dreadnought if you play one. So I would cut Tinkerer, he's awful in almost every matchup and even against Dreadstill where he's supposed to shine he is awful most of the time. He's not even worth the sideboard space.
Personally I would just play the list GreenOne posted, the pre M10 one, if you want to play Mono R.
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