I don't think you need 4 Tundra with STP being your only white spells. Well, then again you're probably trying to maximize your Shackles. Do you think you'd drop one for another Island? Or possibly a Forest or Plains since you run some Heaths?Originally Posted by GrAsH
After some testing, i noticed running a basic Forest and Plains along with 4 Windswept Heath was the best way to go when i ran Qasali Pridemage. Now i'm testing Trygon Predator in that slot, if you can't protect it Trygon changes the match completely, while i found Qasali for a more agressive play. That being said, I still think the 4xWindsweapt Heath with Forest and Plains is good because you see Moon effects and Wastelands in the 50% of games. Then it takes me to the next slot, Vedalken Shackles. It seemed a bit slower because of the basic nonislands I play, so I tryed to include one copy of Umezawa's Jitte. I have mixed feelings about that equipment, sometimes had been kind slow.
Also, and going back two or three weeks, I'm not sure to include Lorescale Coatl. It grows when we have the Counterbalance plus the Sensei's Divining Top on board, but at this point we already almost won the game. Maybe Trinket Mage needs a place to stabilize before we set up the "wall"?
Proposed List:
4 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
19 Lands
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Trygon Predator
2 Trinket Mage
2 Sower of Temptation
11 Creatures
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Spell Snare
3 Daze
2 Ponder
2 Engineered Explosives
30 Spells
2 Pithing Needle
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Chalice of the Void
2 Path to Exile
4 Meddling Mage
3 Hydroblast
15 Sideboard
Back to the UGBw List, heres something without the confidants i wanted to discuss:
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tombstalker
3 Ponder
2 Spell Snare
3 Daze
4 Swords to plowshares
1 Krosan Grip
2 Vindicate
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Senseis divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Counterbalance
20 Lands
Sideboard
2 Perish
4 Hydroblast
1 Krosan Grip
2 Pithing Needle
3 Duress
3 Tormods Crypt
I have some Slots i am not feeling happy for sure, I like the options of removal i get with 2 vindicate,explosives and the grip but i also liked the permanent threat like Trygon Predator gave me, Tombstalker is so good as u get faster on mirror matches while the tombstalker really stalks the counterbalance, survives Persish and Engineered explosivers-
I figured out that Vindicate isnt that bad on the Countertop Decks as CB, Daze, Force of will counter for free or even cheep ur able to tap out for threats your gonna drop so if i tap out for a trygon predator, sower of temptation, shackles, vindicate doesnt make much difference and Vindicate hits every target which makes it very usefull on this Deck imo.
-> Is it smart to play an academy ruins only for the engineered explosives in the Deck?
Only 2 snares? I would play 3 or maybe 4 even. That third would go on EE slot. Or tombstalker slot. How many ug-seas you play? Just for that tombstalker BB cost, you need to play 4-of. I would maybe cut 1x krosan grip too, because that vindicate hits same targets anyway, that split second ability hardly make a difference.Back to the UGBw List, heres something without the confidants i wanted to discuss:
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tombstalker
3 Ponder
2 Spell Snare
3 Daze
4 Swords to plowshares
1 Krosan Grip
2 Vindicate
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Senseis divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Counterbalance
20 Lands
Sideboard
2 Perish
4 Hydroblast
1 Krosan Grip
2 Pithing Needle
3 Duress
3 Tormods Crypt
I have some Slots i am not feeling happy for sure, I like the options of removal i get with 2 vindicate,explosives and the grip but i also liked the permanent threat like Trygon Predator gave me, Tombstalker is so good as u get faster on mirror matches while the tombstalker really stalks the counterbalance, survives Persish and Engineered explosivers-
I figured out that Vindicate isnt that bad on the Countertop Decks as CB, Daze, Force of will counter for free or even cheep ur able to tap out for threats your gonna drop so if i tap out for a trygon predator, sower of temptation, shackles, vindicate doesnt make much difference and Vindicate hits every target which makes it very usefull on this Deck imo.
-> Is it smart to play an academy ruins only for the engineered explosives in the Deck?
Yes id like to play the 3rd Snare too, in fact for the control matchup if i can use 3 duress, 3 snares beside the rest of the counter of this Deck u get a nice lineup. I also dont really like the Grip, i also would like 1-2 trygon predator for this slot giving me vindicate and explosives for faster solutions while the predator permanently hits.
You sure have a point. But I think I'll cut Shackles for Jitte since Shackles is a bit slow and I have Sower and StP to deal with opposing Goyfs, Stalkers, whatever, and some kind of life gain is needed if things start to get worse (against Goyf Sligh, burn and Goblins, which is the core of my meta).
I think that in my case, cutting a Tundra and a Tropical Island for a Plains and a Forest is the way to go, due to the high presence of Wastelands in my meta (Stifle doesn't see much play, so my Vial Merfolks deck is wonderful with my mana denial package =D)
So the deck would look like this:
UGW CounterTop
Lands
1 Plains
3 Island
1 Forest
3 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
2 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Trygon Predator
3 Lorescale Coatl
2 Sower of Temptation
Spells
3 Counterbalance
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
3 Spell Snare
4 Daze
1 Krosan Grip
4 Force of Will
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Umezawa's Jitte
About sideboard, Stifle and Chalice of the Void are almost obrigatory in a meta full of burn, Goyf Slighs, Goblins, ANT and Vial decks. People here love red, lol.
Hi again!
After some intensiv trading i am able to give the Probasco list a try. I have a bigger Tournament next Weekend around here and would like to get some ideas until then.
I came up with this list:
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Lorescale Coatl
3 Ponder
4 Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Spell Snare
3 Fire//Ice
2 Firespout
4 Brainstorm
1 Krosan Grip
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
4 Island
Sideboard:
4 Pyroblast
2 Firespout
1 Krosan Grip
3 Pithing Needle
2 Hydroblast
3 Relic of Progenitus
I know that the manabase is terrible right now but i have to get wooded foothills till the tournament to add the taiga and basics, so dont keep an eye on this point.
@ Grath + Johan - In my non Probasco list, I ended up running:
4 Windswept Heath
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
3 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
It helped against Wastelands, Price of Progress, and the like. I literally made a PoP totally useless one game. Having the basics helped more than not having them (I had one hand I HAD to mulligan because it was beautiful but had no blue sources).
I kinda fell in love with the Probasco list. I'm not sure if I like the 2 Academy Ruins though. And also it gets a little land heavy sometimes. I do like how you almost always have Top. And Sower really is the sex.
As much as I've been promoting Coatl, I'm starting to have mixed feelings after trying out Probasco's list. And I was also a little hard on RWM, but I still don't think he's that great. I think that people in my area also fear the snake more than the rhino just because they've seen the snake get to be huge (insert penis jokes here). Both have advantages and disadvantages.
EDIT: Wanted to contribute something else.
@ TangleWire - I'd run the extra Delta over the 4th Volcanic Island and drop an Island for a Ponder. 18 Lands works great for me and I've never really had an issue getting to 3 lands. It looks like you have Tempo Thresh mashed with CBTop. I personally would swap a Snare for a Daze, but that's me. Unless you absolutely need that 3 mana for Spout, Grip and Coatl. If you need the Grip/Spout fast or want to rely more on Coatl the above suggestion should be ignored lol. Crypt is probably going to be better for you than Relic. Or run 1 Relic, 2 Crypt imo. If you're just trying to nuke opposing Goyfs, consider Pyroclasm over Relic (3R all together vs 4r/g or 3RG in one turn). It's debatable and really really depends on your meta. Like lots of Merfolk/Elves have 8 Champions. And Merfolk get Spell Snare which makes Spout a little more valuable.
Hi guys, i dropped from a tournament with 0-1-4 today running this list:
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Lorescale Coatl
2 Sower of Temptation
3 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
3 Fire/Ice
3 Engineered Explosives
4 Divining Top
4 Spell Snare
3 Daze
Sideboard:
3 Pithing Needle
3 Relic of Progenitus
4 pyroblast
2 Krosan grip
3 firespout
I just dont know what to do i always lose to this deck, i dont think that this list was that bad but i almost lost against a Battle of Wits deck ^^ which made me really feel unconfortable.
So whats the right way to build a URG deck?
Well, at a glance, you have no Sensei's Divining Top, so you will struggle to counter stuff, if you are reliant on Brainstorm for your counter reveals.
Dave
"Time you enjoy wasting, was not wasted." - John Lennon
I played 4 divining top or am i missunderstanding?
Sorry, didnt seem at the bottom of the list. My bad!
"Time you enjoy wasting, was not wasted." - John Lennon
First off, I am not that big a fan of the UGR countertop, unless you are playing with the swans combo. I just feel like countertop needs more control elements that red cannot provide. You either need to go with white (my personal preference) for swords, maybe RWM and maybe pridemage, or you need to go with black as a 4th color for confidant, or go probasco list (which I definitely hope to try out in a tournament soon). Your red splash has stuck you in between tempo thresh and countertop thresh which doesn't allow you to fully abuse countertop.
Additionally, even though you do have spellsnares, I feel that your cmc 2 count is too low. Spellsnare is good, but it is still only a 1-for-1, whereas countertop is pretty much free and therefore is your main form of card advantage.
What were your matchups? A more detailed report might help with giving advice.
If you drawed 4 games, i guess you have to play quicker, and be faster with topping the top of your library.
dudes, how will you optimize countertop in this meta?
1 CounterTop
1 Black/Green Rock
1 Burn
1 Naya Aggro
1 Blightning Aggro
1 Goblins
1 Dragon Stompy
1 Eva Green
1 Red/Green Beats
quite a small community of legacy players in my country. but still there are fun to play with. :P
Aggro Meta? Play Combo!
But if you want to stick to CounterTop, play Life-Gain-Cards in your main deck (Rhox War Monk, Jitte) or splash Red for Pyroclasm/Firespout in your sideboard.
I've seen people mention it enough to warrent a discussion.
Spell Snare vs Daze in CB/top decks
My personal opinion (and what I ran for the Vestal Tournament recently-took 18th place-Ugwr below) was that the deck needed more 2cc spells, so I replaced the 3 Spell Snare's with 3 Daze's and put 2 Spell Snare's in the board. If Cb is the central part of the deck, then the cmc of the spells in the deck need to be optimized. For Example; If you have Cb/top out and one goyf on the table, then there are only 6 more 2cc spells in the deck. The odds of topping into one aren't that good. So, In my oppinion, Daze is better in a CB/top shell than Spell Snare IF you only have room for one or the other.
Pro's
Spell Snare - hardcounter (even late game), no tempo lost
Daze - FREE, allows more agressive play, protection from fast combo, increases 2cc count
Con's
Spell Snare - Not free, only counters 2cc, converted cost of 1
Daze - can be played arround (but still slows them down to do this), bad late game
I look forward everyone else's oppinions.
Sage
FYI - My list from the Tournament
Ugwr Countertop
cc-0=20
cc-1=16
cc-2=11
cc-3=7
cc-4=2
cc-5=4
creature [9]
2 Sower of Temptation
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Trinket Mage
instant [17]
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Daze - switched from s-snare to increase;
-2cc count for cb
-utillity counterspells
-ability to play more aggressively
2 Krosan Grip
4 Swords to Plowshares - spot removal is critical
sorcery [2]
2 Ponder
enchantment [4]
4 Counterbalance
artifact [9]
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Springleaf Drum - Won g2 against #2 list (Merfolk-tie)
(got me out of a wastland lock)
- probably had g3 if I had 5 more min (we looked at the top 5+ cards each)
2 Vedalken Shackles
land [19]
4 Flooded Strand
5 Island - Took 1 copy of A-Ruins out (prob bad idea)
4 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
60 cards
Sideboard:
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Divert - singlehandedly beat my round 8 op g2 (zoo)
(redirected bolt to a 3/3 Nacatl)
2 Hydroblast
3 Firespout
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Spell Snare
1 Tormod's Crypt
15 cards
@Sage - I did the same thing but I haven't tested my list yet. I'm playing the UGw build with Pridemage and Jitte so I can flip for 2 more reliably. I have 3 Daze main and 3 Spell Snare SB for the reasons you mentioned plus this allows you to go with Daze on the play and Spell Snare on the draw for games 2 and 3.
I've been playing Der_imaginäre_Freund's list with much success.
I think the list is very effective at supporting counter-top and beating a wide variety of decks.
This is the list I'm playing:
// Lands
3 [R] Tropical Island
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [R] Tundra
2 [10E] Island (3)
1 [10E] Plains (3)
1 [B] Forest (1)
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
3 [DIS] Trygon Predator
2 [FD] Trinket Mage
// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [4E] Swords to Plowshares
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
3 [LRW] Ponder
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 [4E] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
This list has 18 1cc spells, 14 2cc spells and 5 3cc spells.
So it covers well the 1 and 2 cc slots. It may be a little weak at 3cc but I've found its adequate.
I like spell snare better than Daze. Daze is just too easy to play around. I still think Daze is a very good card. But since this list is very good at removing threats from the board, if you can reliably counter a couple of key spells (with spell snare) controlling the board will be pretty easy.
How has those jittes working for you? Those just seems not be needed because you have pridemages for tarmowars. Of cource they can be usefull but just thinking..
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