Hellspark was largely irrelevant, since I barely saw him. Having Stp'd/PtE'd twice against my Rd 2 opponent was no fun, but he got in for 6 the only other time I drew him.
If you want to replace Hellspark, I would suggest another beater, not burn. Compared with burn, he functions as 2 burns spells in 1.
It all depends on what you expect to see across the table. Unearth is so good against Counters/Standstill/3sphere.
Edit: The Goyf Sligh that beat me played Hellspark Elemental and Keldon Marauders. I wonder if we can get word from him how much he liked the setup.
Last edited by whienot; 05-28-2009 at 05:51 PM. Reason: extra info.
Tusk up.
Originally Posted by Finn
Mike Farrell (1st)
1 Barbarian Ring
4 Taiga
7 mountain
4 bloodstained mire
4 wooded foothills
4 tarmogoyf
4 mogg fanatic
4 figure of destiny
4 grim lavamancer
3 keldon marauders
2 vexing shusher
3 fireblast
4 price of progress
4 lightning bolt
4 chain lightning
4 magma jet
sb
2 red elemental blast
2 pyroblast
3 tormods crypt
3 krosan grip
2 pithing needle
1 meltdown
2 shattering spree
I played this deck at the Lotus Moxen Bazaar & 40 Duals!!! May 30th Binghamton Jupiter Games! and won....
grim lavamancer MVP
report later.....
Congrats on the win, that's a pretty huge accomplishment!
Can't wait for the report. I'm definitely interested in hearing your thoughts and experiences with a few specific cards as well:
Fanatic - how useful in matchups other than Ichorid?
Marauders - how often did it hit for 5?
Shusher - how successful was having just 2 at solving Counterbalance and Chalice? Did it stick?
Needle - Better than Null Rod?
Fanatic - how useful in matchups other than Ichorid? ;;;;;;other good ones(matchups): merfolk goblins elves ( goyf on goyf ), I did find myself siding them out some times......
Marauders - how often did it hit for 5?;;;;; many, most heavy creature decks I sided them out...... I like guaranteed 2 vs nothing with hellspark also defense ability sometime was a good factor..... but I have been looking at the hellspark a lot.....
Shusher - how successful was having just 2 at solving Counterbalance and Chalice? Did it stick?,,,,, they are wonderful drawing them at anytime during most games. I did side them out a lot.. goblins, elves, zoo, ichard, but any deck playing blue ( most of the field) they were always a nice draw, I just didn't want to draw lots of them....sometime they where just a target for swords which is one less for goyfs or were a bear........
Needle - Better than Null Rod?,,,, null rod maybe be a better choice in some cases but I don't own them and the one game against B?G i would have lost if it cost more than 1... but that is really situational.....,, I do like the diversity of the needle , for non artifact spells, deed, survival, wasteland , cop red, etc... mutavault, , so both have there advantages but I like needle and think I will stick with it....think about all posiblites and you decide.... I think I would have wanted another needle instead of the meltdown in the SB...
I wrote a report under T reports!!!!
Last edited by Albplayer; 06-01-2009 at 09:39 PM. Reason: proof
Also, I see you didn't play any basic Forests. What do you do if your Taigas get Wasted or Mooned and you need your Grips (or Goyfs)?
Well, if it's a Magus of the Moon, you just laugh and blow it up.
If it's a Blood Moon though, that can cause problems.
all red no forest please: 4 cards main are green then 3 to 4 in sideboard, I would rather have all red sources for FOD, and mountains for fireblast..... you must play smart using lands, when and which one to play , hold , and searching.. I have never had a problem...
no one would keep in Magus of the Moon or blood moon in against me I don't see why they would! just for goyf with grips in side is way to situational and a waste of a turn.. 6.7 % of the main deck is goyfs : 60% is red: ...........
barbarian ring is a red source and has done many wonderful things for me ...
Last edited by Albplayer; 06-03-2009 at 10:48 AM.
Came in 10th out of 28 tonight. Same main and side. I think I hit every bad match-up, but still ended 3-2 beating White Stax twice and Ad Nauseum combo.
Rd 1 White Stax
He goes turn 1 3sphere, turn 2 Smokestack, and has the turn 3 crucible. Scoop.
Games two and three are decided by multiple Tarmogoyfs while he has a CoP: Red down.
1-0
Rd 2 Zoo
I get monkey stomped. Next.
1-1
Rd3 Ninja Chant - THE meta wrecking ball. Seriously. Pat is the champion my friend.
G1 He goes t1 Mother of Runes. I have no burn, but play a lavamancer. T2 he playes Mother of Runes x2. He plays beats, I play lands. GG.
G2 I manage to Reverent Silence 2x Chills and out aggro him.
G3 Mother of Runes and Burrenton Forge-Tender beat me senseless. Great match.
1-2
Rd4 White Stax
G1 I play Figure, go. He plays double Mox Diamond, go. I play Null Rod.The game ended with me having two 4/4 Figures beating face.
G2 I was land screwed while he assembled 3sphere, Smokestack and Crucible. If I topdeck a land I can cast Grip. No luck.
G3 Very close. He gets CoP Red down and slows me. Crucible and 3sphere come down. I Grip the first Smokestack. His board is CoP Red, 3sphere, Crucible, Windborn Muse and Factories, then he plays a second Smokestack. I have Lavamancer and Tarmogoyf. I grip the CoP Red, shoot him with lavamancer. Untap, shoot with lavamancer and Bolt. Win. Yikes. I hate playing against Stax.
Rd5 Ad Nauseum
G1 He Duresses away my Null Rod only to topdeck another. He AdNauseums down to 2. Bolt ftw.
G2 I mull to 6. Still not great, but its burn heavy. He scoops to low life. Go Burn.
Miss the top 8 to everyone drawing in.
I'm thinking of running Engineered Explosives in the side. It seems decent, helping against pro red dudes and Zoo and being another tool against Dredge.dec. I know its doesn't exactly flow with the deck's strategy, but is a handy catch all (for things 2 and under).
Tusk up.
In all fairness you should not have won game 2 against AdN. He had the win in his hand but didn't see it. AdN just makes people lazy about combo VIA other means, his hand was this: Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, IGG, Infernal Tutor, Cabal Ritual (would have been threshed). All he had to do was: rit (1), IT revealing rit (2), rit (3), rit (4), Cabal (5), IGG (6), return Cabal, rit, IT, play them and Tendrils for 20. Bad times, but it was quite humorous when I saw his Duress the Null Rod out of ur hand. I was thinking yeah, combo has got this, then I walked away and came back to see you ripped ur only remaining Null Rod in the deck off the top! And I totally agree about Ninja Chant, no one on these boards would take it seriously but Pat top8s with that deck like it is his job!
"I just shot Marvin in the face!"
"Why the fuck'd you do that??"
... and this was not even a difficult hand to win with. Combo is very potent but incredibly difficult to master. If you cannot see this opening, you should practice a lot more or stay away from combo decks.
This sounds interesting! I've been loking for a list but couldn't find one. can you guide me to one or ask 'Pat' to make a post here? Thanks.
Robrecht
@Pulp - You're right I shouldn't have won that match, but I'll take the win however I can (outside of the cheats). It was the last round and neither one of us would sure if the winner could even make it in to the top8. He was more out of it than I was.
@Odd Mutation - NinjaChant is what it sounds like. Ninjas and Orim's Chant. It's a Uw fish deck that is pretty much combo's worst match-up. Pat keeps his list fairly private, but I'll see if he wants to post it.
Tusk up.
After having playtested Zoo a lot I am back where I started: Goyfsligh with w splash. Too often I had problems with non-basic hate and though the addition of white adds flexibility at the same time it reduced the decks raw power. It always felt that I lost because the final burnspell just didnt show up.
So here is my list I intend to play at the next tourney:
Spells (20):
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Magma Jet
3 Price of Progress (just 3 because sometimes they are just dead cards)
3 Fireblast (I love this card but 4 seems a little too much if you draw them at the beginning or in your starting hand)
2 Rift Bolt (the most debatable slot. I could play Helix but my experience is that Plateaus gets wasted regularly, so I do not want to depend on w too much. Helix shines only in the mirror or fast Aggro otherwise the life is useless. Rift Bolts dodge CB more easily.)
Creatures (21):
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Kird Ape
4 Grim Lavamancer ( I want to play 4 because against some matchups, he is just too good)
3 Vexing Shusher (3 at least in the days of CBT)
2 Hellspark Elemental (this slot is more or less changeable, could be another critter or another burn spell)
Lands (19):
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Forest
4 Mountains
SB:
3 Winter Orb
2 Pithing Needle
2 Volcanic Fallout
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Shattering Spree
Meta: I am expecting at least CBT based decks, Tribal (Merfolk, Elves, Goblins) and Landstill.
Boarding plan:
Landstill / MUC:
+ 3 Winter Orbs
+ 3 Grips
-2 Rift Bolt
-1 Kird Ape
- 3 Pop for MUC
- Not sure what else to take out for Landstill probably 1 Ape, 1 Lavamance, 1 Nacatl or 3 Burnspells?
Zoo:
nothing
Merfolk/Goblins/Elves:
+2 Volcanic Fallout
-2 Rift Bolt
maybe also board grips (Merfolk) or Ancient Grudge /Spree (Goblins) for Vial. Against Goblins this is more easy to do due to Shusher not being relevant.
CBT / ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh:
3x Krosan Grip (against CB)
2x Needle (against Top)
-2 Rift Bolt
-1 Ape, -1 Lavamance, -1 Magma Jet (not sure what to take out)
Eva Green:
3x Pyrostatic Pillar (they already hurt themselves so why not try it)
-3 Shusher
Dragon Stompy / Affinity:
3x Grip + Grudge and Spree for Trinisphere, CotV
-2 Rift Bolt, -3 Shusher
Survival /Aggro Loam:
I am really unsure here. Krosan Grips not too bad against Loam and Survival. Probably Grudge/Spree against Loam if they bring in CotV. Winter Orb also seems a viable option since both decks require about at least 3-4 mana to play scary moves. Maybe also Pyrostatic Pillar is an option to keep the Loam player from casting Loam a lot.
Advice for SB options and sideboarding is very welcome.
Against Eva Green I'd side Needles or Volcanic Fallout before Pillar.
Jitte might be a problem, and you can always name Wasteland or Shade.
Against Landstill I'd take out some number of Lavamancers. They're mana intensive and quite slow as beaters. They don't have many creatures so they lose their control aspect.
Currently Playing: Nourishing Lich.Deck
Current Record: 1-83-2
Thanks for your suggestions. Yeah, Lavamancer is slow compared to the opther beaters so that might be the road I take.
Eva Green has Jitte, of course, thanks for reminding me, at least they have it Game 2 so Needle is relevant. Volcanic jsut hits Shade (eventually) and Hippy but both are easy prey for any burn spell usuallyso I would rather go with Pillar (-3 Shusher) + Needle (-2 Rift Bolt).
Any suggestions against Loam / Survival?
The minor white splash for Nacatl is very tempting, but I'm not sure it's worth it. Figure is really good because you don't have to show your duals until you're ready to play Goyf or other SB cards, and that way you don't have to worry about wastelands turning your Cats and Apes into Mons Goblin Raiders. Also, the nonbasics you fetch for Nacatl make your PoPs hurt.
I lose some speed with Figure, but I try to hold onto burn until the turn I can win, so I normally have mana open in early turns to fuel him. But if I have other creatures to play I just pump him once and leave it.
True, but you can still play smart so Apes stay 2/3 and Nacatl at least is 2/2 (average size of Figure I would guess) with the basic Forest. On the other hand Nacatl is a wonderful 1st Turn drop and sometimes goes all the way with burn spells clearing its path.
Actually I have thought about playing Figure in the slot of Hellspark and reduce the number of Lavamancers to 3 but what is keeping me from doing so is the enormous mana needed to get them to a reasonable size (4/4). As you say Figure probably matters mid- lategame but I am not sure this suits the deck. In addition I have seen them in a lot of successful builds lately so they cant be that bad. For sure I have to try it out but right now I am familiar with that sweet little kitti-kat.
For Goyf Sligh, with its critical mass of burn spells and creatures, Figure of Destiny sucks up tempo like crazy. You want to be burning away blockers or aiming at your opponent's head with whatever mana you have available, not pumping up a creature into a size which already exists for sother (Kird Ape/Wild Nacatl). I think Figure is a better fit in Zoo, where the goal is more to just smash face with creatures than to burn out the opponent. Also, Zoo can afford to sink mana to pump Figure into a 4/4, because if it does get removed, there's a Thoctar or Goyf coming into play.
The Source: Your Source for "The Source: Your Source for..." cliche.
I think it's the opposite. Zoo wins in the combat step, so it has to play all of its threats within the first few turns, which is trouble for Figure. Sligh, on the other hand, is comfortable playing 1-2 creatures in the early turns and burning for the win on turn 4/5.
I don't know how you can play it safe and always keep your Ape a 2/3. If your hand is Taiga, Mountain, Mountain, Ape/Nacatl, Goyf, and some burn, are you going to drop the Taiga first/second turn against any deck with Wasteland?
Another thing that's great about Figure is that you can attack into a threshed Mongoose with three mountains untapped. Barring a Bolt or Plow, they can't block and the 2 damage goes through. Then you can PoP, Bolt, Fireblast with the free mana.
Depends on the opponents deck, the move to play Taiga first isnt too bad because you get at least a 2/2 Nacatl and wasting also sets my opponent one turn back. Maybe I would go for such a start against Merfolk to play the Goyf later and keep of the Folks with Burn. The usual hand should of course include at least on fetchland.
In a format that lately has much more targeted creature removal investing in Figure seems quite risky. Anyway as for combat tricks, well you know, they do last for another month then they are gone.
Merfolk, probably more than any other deck, will try to keep you off green so you can't play Goyf. They'll stifle your fetches and waste the Taigas you draw (if you play them for Nacatl). They often keep hands without colored mana if they have a Vial. Having your Apes and Cats shrink is collateral damage.Depends on the opponents deck, the move to play Taiga first isnt too bad because you get at least a 2/2 Nacatl and wasting also sets my opponent one turn back. Maybe I would go for such a start against Merfolk to play the Goyf later and keep of the Folks with Burn. The usual hand should of course include at least on fetchland.
In a format that lately has much more targeted creature removal investing in Figure seems quite risky. Anyway as for combat tricks, well you know, they do last for another month then they are gone.
Also, you can still play spells and activate abilities (i.e. pump Figure) after blocks are assigned with post-M10 rules. I realize Figure requires a greater mana investment, but I think it's perfectly manageable.
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