[Deck] UW(x) Landstill

[Mark Sun]

Negate is there too for stopping some burn spells. My objection is not that pulse is >>> ajani vs burn (which is a debatable question, i know), but that ajani comes in handy even in the mirror match and against aggroloam. However, I do like the side, yet it still seems to me rather not balanced against combo (the negate-meddling mage thing always upsets me). I'd maybe find room for a second extirpate (seems quite good having the possibility to double wish for pate, or to put it MD for ichorid, due to the new exiled thing), and I'd also try to sneak a moat in the slot of a plague (moat is better than humility against merfolks and ichorid for instance), or stick to that plague and it's ok however.

Ah, makes sense for the Goldmane. I have 2 in my SB at the moment, so I'm still adjusting.

Moat is ridiculously expensive and out of my budget at the moment, although in an ideal world (or a non-sanctioned tourney with proxies) I would totally run it.

I'm a fan of the second Extirpate, though. No issues with running it 2-2 Pate-Path. What are thoughts on Stifle/Trickbind, by the way, now that we bring up combo?

[mossivo1986]

What are thoughts on Stifle/Trickbind, by the way, now that we bring up combo?

Duress orim's chant end you.

[Misplayer]

I've found the counter gameplan to be weak against burn/goyf sligh (negate, BEB, etc.). You have to let spells like Chain Lightning and Lightning Bolt resolve because you're holding back your counters for Fireblast/PoP. By this point, you're already at 10 life or less. I think Ajani is still worthwhile on top of Wish->PotF because it gives you 2 more outs against Burn/Zoo/Goyf Sligh.

On the Stax matchup, I think play Crucible and protect Crucible is an excellent gameplan. It makes a good handful of their cards very weak against you. Also EE shines brightly in this matchup, as resolving one at zero and at 3 can almost clear their board.

How about Aura of Silence? It's very useful in matches like Stax, Affinity and even Dreadstill and Combo. I don't know if it's worth a sideboard slot though.

[ultimoman]

I've been trying to as well. Its difficult because of the sideboard slots currently all in use. If the meta frees up of this merfolk crap just a we bit then Ill re add it. Until then that slot is being filled.

Indeed, Merfolk is everywhere lately. I'm still going to try to fit a Crucible in somewhere for its versatility. I'd hate to take out a Plague though since 3 (I'm also using 3) of them is a great number but thats probably the best candidate. I have yet to use the Shackles, but I'm sure its excellent for the sideboard.

@Morbid: I'm not moss but I've actually gone back to using the Disk, at least for now, and I think its good. Each build is different though. It rarely destroys anything of mine. With the Disk main, I'm not longer using Fracturing Gust in the side. Once or twice though I top decked it in an emergency and the 'comes into play tapped' ended up killing me since it was 1 turn too late. It has its advantages and disadvantages.

@gustha: Correct, combo can be a problem. Obviously the key is knowing what to counter and when, but its still a hard matchup. If you replace anything in the sideboard for Meddling Mage, the other matchups are going to become a problem possibly. Orim's Chant is a thought but they'll get around that these days. I'm finding difficulty making the combo matchup better without a hand of counters and luck.

@Taishaku: Yeah that is the best way to think of Tolaria West. A 3 mana sorcery speed tutor; with all the draw in the deck, I'm still not sure if I'd rather have a basic land to make things easier in the early game. It does have its uses though.

@Misplayer: I agree. I'd like to keep at least 1 Ajani in the sideboard but I'm not sure how. The counters buy time but waiting around for a Wish-Pulse could be dangerous if its never found.

[Shawon]

What are thoughts on Stifle/Trickbind, by the way, now that we bring up combo?

Duress orim's chant end you.

Use Duress or Orim's Chant of your own to end them, perhaps?

What do you guys think of Duress/Thoughtseize in the sb?

[Tinefol]

Not going to work. Landstill isn't the deck that can get the most from early discard disruption. We don't have a reasonably fast clock, opponent would have all the time he needs to recover. Instead its better to run real 'lock pieces', like Meddling Mage, Moat, COP: Red, Pulse that they have to deal with; whatever generally is run in s/b.

[gustha]

@gustha: Correct, combo can be a problem. Obviously the key is knowing what to counter and when, but its still a hard matchup. If you replace anything in the sideboard for Meddling Mage, the other matchups are going to become a problem possibly. Orim's Chant is a thought but they'll get around that these days. I'm finding difficulty making the combo matchup better without a hand of counters and luck.

My problem is the contrary, I've always played with my 3 MM in the sb. Now I'm trying to fit negate but that requires a change of mentality for me. On one hand, negate doesn't stand on the table and beats your opponents, and that has obviously good sides (can't be stp'ed etc.), but has its negative sides too (doesn't stay on the table and hit your oppo, in the first place ). My question is wheter Negate improves or not the combo Mu. I can sit my MM on tendrils or ETW and I'm fair good till they try to do something, but I can't stop storm spells as with my mage and save my other counters for the mana spell/key spells, while putting a slow clock. No doubt it's a good card paired with MM, but is that good without? I see many Mu's in which negate is far better than MM (burn, mirror in first place); is it better against combo? Is it better against loam? dunno. It's not I'm skeptic, I just want feedbacks on negate, 'cause I see MM becoming less and less good in many Mu's, except for the combo mu, which is fundamentally why he is still in my list and not the more versatile negate.

[ultimoman]

My problem is the contrary, I've always played with my 3 MM in the sb. Now I'm trying to fit negate but that requires a change of mentality for me. On one hand, negate doesn't stand on the table and beats your opponents, and that has obviously good sides (can't be stp'ed etc.), but has its negative sides too (doesn't stay on the table and hit your oppo, in the first place ). My question is wheter Negate improves or not the combo Mu. I can sit my MM on tendrils or ETW and I'm fair good till they try to do something, but I can't stop storm spells as with my mage and save my other counters for the mana spell/key spells, while putting a slow clock. No doubt it's a good card paired with MM, but is that good without? I see many Mu's in which negate is far better than MM (burn, mirror in first place); is it better against combo? Is it better against loam? dunno. It's not I'm skeptic, I just want feedbacks on negate, 'cause I see MM becoming less and less good in many Mu's, except for the combo mu, which is fundamentally why he is still in my list and not the more versatile negate.

Good questions. I used to used MM also but took them out of the side, they're too easy to kill and and the casting cost isn't always favorable. Storm won't always be able to deal with it but sometimes they can get around it. Negate won't always get the job done either because theres just too much to counter, but its not a bad choice to use because of its use against so many decks.

I'm already sure its been tried, but has anyone used Chalice of the Void in the side? Its great for Burn or Storm and they can't do much about it. It doesn't do much to us in those matchups after it lands since we're pretty much good to win from there (we won't need Swords, Brainstorms, or sometimes not even SS etc.) It could make some match ups more difficult like Stax or Deadguy Ale but it could be a good choice.

And I may be able to squeeze in 3 E. Plagues and a Crucible into the side after all; I took out Enlightened Tutor and will try that out. Its rare that I wish for the tutor and by the time I do, it may be too late. Thoughts?

[Shawon]

Not going to work. Landstill isn't the deck that can get the most from early discard disruption. We don't have a reasonably fast clock, opponent would have all the time he needs to recover. Instead its better to run real 'lock pieces', like Meddling Mage, Moat, COP: Red, Pulse that they have to deal with; whatever generally is run in s/b.

Well, the discard in the sb would meant for combo/control, so I don't know you would mention COP and Pulse and Moat.

I was just throwing the idea. Discard? Hmm, I don't know. Seems good against the mirror. At least you won't have to rely on countering your opponent's Elspeth, but perhaps Clique already fills that role of preemptive disruption.

[mossivo1986]

Well, the discard in the sb would meant for combo/control, so I don't know you would mention COP and Pulse and Moat.

I was just throwing the idea. Discard? Hmm, I don't know. Seems good against the mirror. At least you won't have to rely on countering your opponent's Elspeth, but perhaps Clique already fills that role of preemptive disruption.

Discard isn't good against the mirror. Live it, learn it, love it. Unless your mind twisting your opponents entire hand or a majority of it you don't want to use discard at the present time. It simply doesn't do what you want it to, and in the late game you will have dead cards in your hand that you simply don't need.

[Hitman82]

My sideboard has Chalice in it specifically for combo. My combo "package" is 1 Chalice of the Void, 2 Duress and 4 Counterbalance. For reference, here's my list:

4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Wrath of God
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Vedalken Shackles
1 Humility
2 Decree of Justice
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Island
3 Plains
3 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Academy Ruins

4 Counterbalance
1 Chalice of the Void
2 Duress
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Planar Void
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Hydroblast
1 Path to Exile
2 Dismantling Blow

The Counterbalances are amazing in several match-ups. Instead of using specific cards for specific match-ups, you can just play Counterbalance and beat 1/3 of the format (many of which we're weak to). Counterbalance is stronger than Pulse of the Fields or Ajani Goldmane and is more versatile across the board. I'd like to find room for one Back to Basics in the board. I may replace a Dismantling Blow with the Back to Basics.

Regarding combo, four Counterbalance isn't enough to make it past the early game. Cards like Daze are much better in conjunction with Counterbalance against combo in the early game because you can afford to tap out and act as if you didn't. In Landstill, it's more of a turn four play. That's why I play one Chalice and two Duress. It helps bridge that gap between the first few turns and the turn you drop Counterbalance. Because it's a turn four play, I've been considering dropping one Counterbalance. It shouldn't be hard to dig into one with Fetches and a Top or Brainstorm. I only play one Chalice because I have one Enlightened Tutor main. That leaves me with, essentially, two Chalices, two Duresses, three Counterspell and four Force of Will until Counterbalance is up. Spell Snare can be excellent in this match-up,too. It depends on whether they play Mystical Tutor.

[ultimoman]

I thought of using Counterbalance since its great against Pox as well as others but our curve may be too high to accomodate well enough and it takes the Top to be most effective, I am interested in using it though but am doubtful of it.

[Hitman82]

Counterbalance isn't an end-all strategy in Landstill. It simply gives you that staying power that other options don't give you. It's relatively simple to find a converted casting cost and hold it at the top of your library with a Top. That's why I say that Counterbalance in Landstill is a turn four play. What other option gives you the kind of staying power Counterbalance does? That's what it comes down to for me. Instead of trying to fit all these silver bullet strategies into a sideboard, I can side into Counterbalance and just manipulate my casting costs on the top of the Library. You have enough control elements to be able to miss with a Counterbalance occasionally but what other option lets you reliably play around Duress/Orim's Chant or recurring Life from the Loam? You can run graveyard removal for Loam and Chalice for combo but that takes up a lot of space and won't be as flexible across the board as just running Counterbalance.

Probasco's list from GP:Chicago only had two more two cc cards in it (only one if you count Enlightened Tutor to put a Standstill on top of the library). You could change the numbers by adding another Standstill and/or Counterspell but then you junk up the deck. You'll see Counterspell earlier than you should want to and get Standstills too often. Besides, once you bring the Counterbalances in, you'll have more two drops than his deck had.

[ultimoman]

You're right, I may have to experiment between the two more but don't like needing UU and a top for Counterbalance. Although on the 20th, I wouldn't be too surprised if Top or Counterbalance gets banned.
Runed Halo could be another option to try although its likely too limited.

[Hitman82]

Not to make this thread about bannings but it would be asinine to ban Top and/or Counterbalance. Just because it beats up on bad players or players who can't think outside of the box doesn't mean it needs to be banned. If they are going to ban a card, I'd put money on Top because they already banned it in Extended for "time issues".

[ultimoman]

Indeed, if anything it'd probably be the Top.

I think part of my problem with using Counterbalance is not knowing what to take out for sideboarding it in. Against Combo, you obviously side out Wraths, etc, but against Deadguy Ale or Zoo? I probably keep taking out the wrong cards. Its possible I get too greedy with Counterbalance and side it in too much when its not needed; its just so powerful though.

[mossivo1986]

You're right, I may have to experiment between the two more but don't like needing UU and a top for Counterbalance. Although on the 20th, I wouldn't be too surprised if Top or Counterbalance gets banned.
Runed Halo could be another option to try although its likely too limited.

I dont see this happening unless they really hurt combo. If they REALLY hurt combo then its a strong possibility. The mana phase shit is only part of it, for which I believe they need to do more aka print something for blue that stops storm and is usefull as a blue threat. Meddling mage doesnt fill this void in my mind. Something with shroud would be AWESOME

I dont see them banning top but if they did I would be severly dissapointed as its pretty much the only thing keeping control on top.

[Jak]

I dont see them banning top but if they did I would be severly dissapointed as its pretty much the only thing keeping control on top.

Konsultant seems to do fine without Top. Many Landstill lists that I see do fine without Top.

[mossivo1986]

Well good start to the source tourney. 2-0 against solidarity :) Take that Combo.

[Taishaku]

@gustha, Morbid-, Misplayer
The only situation where I would love Negate is against say, a deck that relies on Cabal Therapy. Having alternative counterspells may be useful then.

Anything, back to the issue of Burn decks. If not Pulse of the Fields, I would rather use Life Burst, Renewed Faith, or Scent of Jasmine than I would Ajani Goldmane. Typically speaking, Ajani Goldmane is two life for 4cc, at sorcery speed. Nothing is going to stop them from burning him to death, and he needs time to be effective, which is a luxury you don't have against Burn, especially when they start dropping Browbeat on you.

I like Aura of Silence, but I feel Krosan Grip seems to be more worthwhile.

@Tinefol, gustha
I would like Meddling Mage, if I didn't run Wrath of God and Engineered Explosives. To be honest, I think Runed Halo is the better choice here simply because it has better synergy (EE still kills though =\).

Card disruption is typically used when you have a clock. This deck doesn't. The closest thing you would use for it is Vendillion Clique, and only then because you get an instant-speed beater.

@Hitman82, Jak.
I feel Counterbalance is easily foiled by Spell Snares and Krosan Grip. I mean, the deck tends to sacrifice its hand-based permission for board-based permission, putting it in a rather awkward position where it must act rather than react against other decks with permission. Also, let us not forget that it is technically a combo.

I don't think they will ban either card. Then again, I thought Land Tax and Scroll Rack would be around for awhile. xD

I favor Brainstorm over SDT because it enables me to control current (rather than potential) card quality by shuffling unwanted cards from my hand into my deck with a fetchland, something which SDT cannot do. Also, it can be pitched to Force of Will, which is typically the more important reason.