How about something like this?
Lands (22):
4x Mishra's Factory
4x Wasteland
4x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Tomb of Urami
1x Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
1x Undiscovered Paradise
7x Swamp
Creatures (4):
2x Nether Spirit
2x Tombstalker
Spells (34):
2x The Rack
4x Dark Ritual
2x Raven's Crime
2x Funeral Charm
2x Innocent Blood
4x Thoughtseize
2x Powder Keg
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Smallpox
4x Pox
3x Crucible of Worlds
1x Syphon Life
Sideboard (15):
4x Extirpate
4x Engineered Plague
1x Syphon Life
4x Leyline of the Void
2x Spinning Darkness
It's probably too discard heavy, but I really wanted to fit Thoughtseize in there. Questions about SB:
1) Think something like Dystopia might be useful?
2) What about Pithing Needle or Null Rod?
3) I don't know if I like Spinning Darkness, is it really necessary?
The only thing I'd worry about would be finishers, but maybe between Nether Spirit and Factory/Crucible (+rack+'stalker) you do have enough.Originally Posted by dyzzy
It's certainly ready to pilot a bunch of times.
My opinion is that Dystopia is too slow to help... except vs. say Moat or Humility. Spinning Darkness only hits creatures, so I'm not positive it's needed... maybe something like Smother or the other 2 Innocent Bloods?
Pithing Needle & Null Rod: Helpful, I would think. Needle naming Elspeth would've been AWESOME in my last match... Null Rod is narrower (only artifacts) and can shut down your factories abilities (so you couldn't pump your blocking Factory with Rod out)... but if you have a ton of Affinity around, it's the better choice.
muja (and anyone else),
I want your opinion of blackmail. I've put it in my current list over duress because,
a) it hits creatures
b) it can act as a discard outlet and I play x4 animate dead (along with x3 s. titan)
Are these good enough reasons, or should I just go back to duress? What do you think?
peace,
wiz
p.s. when's the tourney, when do we get to see your list?
I also though about blackmail but never over Duress. On the firsts turns, duress is strickly better than the mail. Blackmail get better as the game go on and it could be better in some way (counting on the fact that you attack your opponent manabase with waste/pox effect). But I've never tried it so I could maybe give it a swing to see if it worth it.
On the other hand, If you want to use it with titan and animated dead, it could be more useful. But could it be better to run funeral charm/cabal therapy insteed?I think that could be something to try (I like this idea but I don't know what I could remove to find room for titan AND A.D. probably neither spirit)
My question would be, do you really play Animate Dead+Sundering Titan? That seems like it takes up too many slots. Animate Dead is reactive, but the worst kind of reactive for Pox --- it's not discard, it's not removal, it's hopeful synergy with your discard and/or removal.
...buuut, let's go back to Blackmail. It's not terrible. It's strictly better than Thoughtseize when they only have 3 cards in-hand. I tend to cast discard early in the game, though, when they have 5 cards or so in hand... so Blackmail turns into a "brainstorm" where they can hide what they're most interested in keeping. For topdeck mode, I think Funeral Charm is better, as it can discard that card during their beginning step (instant speed)... but Blackmail is certainly a substitute for Duress or Thoughtseize if you can't get your hands on them.
Round 2 just started today. I got up at 5am to play Nihil in Italy in Round 1, and I made some (in retrospect obviously) bad plays during the games and went 1-2. However, MTGSalvation is running a tourney right now too, and I'm 3-1 (6-3) in that one after Round 4.
shrug. I like animate dead - reanimation spells have been suggested multiple times in this thread. Pox and smallpox are discard outlets, cards like hymn work well with animate dead. I also play a singlets of shriekmaw and mournwelk , both of which combo well with animate dead.
Yes, certain conditions must exist for animate dead to function - but that's true for tombstalker as well.
Again, shrug.
OK, thanks. I'll try a combination of duress and blackmail, and see how it goes.
good luck - you've put a lot of time and thought into it. I hope you do well.
Hey guys I've recently managed to ditch withered wretch in my sideboard for 4x leyline of the void, they're still on the way but i've been pondering...
My SB also runs 4x extirpate (a card that's crucial in my experience vs some matchups and I am intent on keeping in the SB) and I'm worried about the anti-synergy with the two cards. Is there a matchup in which both extirpate and leyline are necessities, and does this cause problems?
I think that 4 of each of those are necessities in the Sideboard. (Although some people fit 2 Extirpates maindeck, so, YMMV) ... G2 vs. anything that loves the graveyard [Ichorid | AggroLoam | Landstill | randomLoam], you want to ensure that you see one of those 8 cards. A good pilot of those decks will eventually bounce your turn 0 Leyline, so multiples don't hurt (unless you see 3 in a game), and the Extirpates are there in case you dont' feel like mulling into the Turn 0 Leyline. In short, I like 4/4 in the board because it gives you options. The rest of the board should be for the Combo matchup, imo.
What cards do you suggest against combo?
If you know for sure there'll be combo, don't bother with Engineered Plague, I think. -4 Plague -1 Syphon Life -2 Spinning ... then pack Chalice of the Void & Trinisphere (4/3?), siding out some 1cc spells (but NOT ritual -- need those to power the hate out as soon as possible!) that you'd otherwise not get to land with Chalice on the board. Also, don't side in Extirpate v. Tendrils combo unless they pull IGG in game 1 or 2 -- it's much more important to keep their solutions at the high end of their curve than to hate on specific techniques. In fact, if they DO pull IGG, you may want to use Leyline instead of Extirpate, keeping your regular discard package.
As discussed upthread, vs. Combo you need 3 things -- fast discard, fast hate (Chalice & Trini), and a lot of luck. Also, if you have a hand with 2 rituals and a chalice, you want to cast it at TWO -- if they can't Burning Wish for their 'anti-hate-hate', the game is over, I think. Two is the most important, followed by Zero. One is ok, but that's the order of importance: Two, zero, One.
Oh, also, keep the poxes in -- if you can cast one, it's almost impossible for them to Ad Nauseum successfully if they're at 13 or less life.
(In my estimation, Ad Nauseum is the only combo deck to worry about -- it's faster than other combo decks by at least a turn, if not more; it packs varied ways to get to its kill condition so it's harder to hate out narrowly; and the normal Pox discard/kill lands plan works much better vs. the other combo decks, so AdN is the only one that you really *have to* sideboard for...
...isn't it interesting that AdN & Ichorid, two nominallydecks, are the decks against which the normal Pox 60 is insufficient?)
I did some playtesting with a very similar version with 1 more Cycling Land and 3 Tombstalkers in the place of Epochrasite and Eternal Witness. Tombstalker wasnt always great because Swords just needs 1 Mana and although the opponent often is locked down to 1-2 lands he manages to play something. Volrath´s Stronghold is just worseless then. Also I often played him using his alternativ costs and removing non lands, sometimes also lands from the graveyard which wasnt very synergistic but nevertheless had to be to drop a win condition. All in all I wasnt very happy with Tombstalker. What about Gigapede, it at least has Shroud and can be recurred at almost no cost with Loam. Also a more TrainWreck like Wincondition like Helldozer could fit in.
I also was thinking about adding Kitchen finks SB against R Aggro. Persist is quite good with sacrifice effects and it good do more then just be a Syphon Life. What do you think?
edited
Last edited by civ; 06-30-2009 at 01:13 AM. Reason: found my answer
Hiya! I've always been a fan of pox, but it's always been bumped back on my list of "new decks to play." Well, not this time! My local meta is practically entirely homebrew control decks and a mishmash of aggro decks that can range across the whole board of aggro decks. Merfolk, red/green beats, burn, Zoo, white weeny, and a particularly powerful aggroloam deck. We do get your occasional oddball deck (Last week had a blue/red scepter counterburn deck). To say the least, combo is non-existent.
So! I took a read over this thread and cobbled a list together based on all the information and now I'm looking for some criticism to knock out anything I'm not aware of. Here:
// Lands
2 [SOK] Tomb of Urami
2 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
10 [CST] Swamp (1)
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (2)
4 [TE] Wasteland
// Creatures
3 [FUT] Tombstalker
// Spells
3 [CFX] Wretched Banquet
2 [TSP] Phyrexian Totem
2 [EVE] Raven's Crime
1 [EVE] Syphon Life
4 [5E] Pox
4 [TSP] Smallpox
3 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
4 [OD] Innocent Blood
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (1)
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [CST] Dark Ritual
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 3 [UD] Powder Keg
SB: 4 [7E] Engineered Plague
I'm mostly confused on figuring out a sort of rule of thumb for balancing out the crippling cards (should I even bother running sinkhole without vindicates on top of it?), creature kill, and finishers. Asking that is probably a little strange, considering how much this deck can be mutated, but if anyone has any insight I'd appreciate it!
The only things that leap out at me are the two Tomb of Urami -- I could see that being a problem in a long game, possibly, as the costs to use either ability are fairly significant (I personally dislike the card entirely, but recommend you cut it to one) -- and the 3 Wretched Banquet -- you say you have a creature heavy meta, but that will only ever hit the weakest creature on the board, which might feel underpowered if you top deck it and there's, say, a Trinket Mage and a Dreadnought on the board. Consider Smother.
Otherwise, I'd say that looks good. Play it a bunch and let us know what you think!
Points taken and tweaked it a little. I have one Urami now and I included them mostly because I'm unsure of how many threats I should run or which ones I should run. Seems like the pool of options is comprised of tombstalker, phyrexian totem, mishra's factory, and a pile of random stuff that seems to mostly be used on taste (nether spirit, cursed scroll, nihilith, urami).
I suppose I'm wondering how many finishers should Pox run?
That's, of course, a good question. Currently, I'm running 3 Tombstalkers, 1 Totem 4 factories (and 2 Syphon Life). I focus on board control, sneaking my damage in when I can, usually through Pox & Factories, then a Tombstalker at the end for the 1-2 turn clock.
You really have to answer that question for yourself, though. Play with what you've got
Hey all,
I don't think this idea was specifically mentioned but if so, sorry I overlooked it. I am gearing towards a Crucible based build with 4 main deck ThoughtSeize and am still considering running 1-2 Phyrexian Arenas. I know its inherently too dangerous what with all of the other life loss, but has anyone had luck using it in conjunction with Zuran Orb? I feel as if 1-2 Arena and 2-3 Orb may be entirely too hefty on the slots, but since I am choosing not to use Dark Ritual it may work out well. It seems this could be a steady middle ground for the card acceleration.
Any Ideas?
thanks
Not sure if I should start a new thread or not, but I was reading Doug Linn's latest article. He mentions Sign in Blood and how using it with Night's Whisper, Pox, and Smallpox might be tech. Is it worth another thread?
My MTG Blog
"The game is not worth the candle."
So...what's the use case with Sign In Blood? I don't see how giving the opponent 2 cards could EVER help unless they're already at 2 life.
It could be relevant when you're going to pox after that. I'm still trying to formulate something. I'll be back.
My MTG Blog
"The game is not worth the candle."
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