Spellsnare and Thought Seize are redundant, Daze isn't a problem because you can either make up for it thru' Werebear or you can actually cast it since the deck itself is light on 2 drops.
Daze is really, really awesome, every time I Intuition for Life from the Loam, Raven's Crime and Wasteland they become virtual hard counters.
@Hanni
I'd drop Nimble Mongoose, the power curve has risen so much that Goose just doesn't actually do anything, where Werebear's mana productions is pretty relevant. Gigapede is also clunky MD, usually I just board him to give me redundancy vs Tormod's Crypt.
Glad you like it tho', it's pretty fun to play.
Originally Posted by wastedlife
Out of curiosity, I've been kicking around a list with Noble Hierarch, Lorescale Coatl, and Maelstrom Pulse. Playing Hierarch makes a noticeable difference to mana production, which has been really nice. Most significantly, it hastens mana production starting on turn two, rather than three (Werebear), and so doesn't necessitate a choice between casting Tarmogoyf or casting Werebear. On the downside, it's a pretty ineffective threat, and exalted hasn't been a huge boon. Without Mongoose, recurring significant threats is much more difficult, simply because there's that much less to recur in the first place.
Coatl has also been fun to play, but it's also less impressive in the late game, and it's not that easy to recur. On the upside, the stronger manabase (thanks to Hierarch) means that it can be done reliably. I'm not sure if it ends up replacing the aggression that's lost without Mongoose and Werebear; to an extent, certainly, but the threat is also more manageable now (since it's just one creature, and easily dealt with to boot). On the other hand, it increases the blue density for FoW, which is helpful--especially since pressure is taken off of FoW by Maelstrom Pulse.
I've quite liked the addition of Maelstrom Pulse to complement Snuff Out and Deed, since it hits Tombstalker, Planeswalkers, and the like. It's taken some pressure off my counterspells and Krosan Grip, which is excellent. The downside has been that my removal suite, although now formidable, also feels unbalanced. It feels unbalanced in relation to itself (the other removal elements), but also in relation to my creature package and to the discard elements, which are supposed to be complementary.
In sum, I'm not sold on the changes I've made, even though they're fun. I really miss dropping a one-mana threat that's untargetable, and I've had to change the way that I run my attack phases a tad. Also, the inclusion of Maelstrom pulse has made Thoughtseize more redundant (except against combo), and I'm not sure how sold I am on that. Although the list runs smoothly, I feel like it needs much more tweaking to achieve an appropriate balance. That said, I quite like this direction, since it feels more versatile: balance feels like an important issue, however. I want another Gigapede-esque threat to be printed (at a lower CC)!
Right, so here's what I've been working with. I'm much happier with the balance now, although there are still some questions. Here's what I'Ve gone with:
Lands (18)
3 Tropical Island
3 Polluted Delta
2 Windswept Heath
2 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
2 Forest
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Wasteland
1 Volrath’s Stronghold
Creatures (16)
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Lorescale Coatl
1 Gigapede
1 Shriekmaw
1 Genesis
1 Eternal Witness
1 Wonder
Spells (27)
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
3 Intuition
3 Sensei’s Divining Top
3 Snuff Out
3 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Raven’s Crime
1 Life from the Loam
Sideboard (15)
3 Thoughtseize
3 Engineered Plague
2 Hydroblast
1 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
3x open slot (Mana Leak? Duress? Still K-Grip?)
I'm really liking Eternal Witness' re-inclusion in the main deck: with the Hierarchs, casting it through Stronghold or Genesis is just much easier, and it makes the removal truly backbreaking. It also acts as Deed #3. Whether or not Wonder should go back into the main deck is another question, however. I could happily relegate it back to the sideboard in exchange for Thoughtseize, I think.
Similarly, Deed is still very strong here, although the need for it has diminished. I like having some form of mass removal in this slot, and I think that Deed's versatility still warrants its inclusion.
What I've found from my testing is an increased facility against Tombstalker, Dreadnought, and Dragon Stompy. If Hierarch is my first drop, then the next few turns are generally controlled by me (thanks to Snuff Out and company). He's sped the deck up by at least a turn, and that's been a significant improvement: turn 3-4 Gigapedes are lethal, and casting Intuition on turn 2 can usually sneak it past opposing counterspells.
Openings without Hierarch are much weaker, but just as viable as they were previously. I also like the fact that there's quite a continuity of must-counter threats packed into the deck, and with two recursion outlets, this continuity easily achieves a critical mass. One small difficulty has been that Hierarch itself is a useless beater, and generally not worth recurring unless you want the mana; on the plus side, the mana fixing that it provides makes recurring larger threats that much more feasible.
The increased blue count has been very favourable as well. I haven't felt the loss of Thoughtseize too much against anything except combo, simply because there's less for it to do now. The inclusion of Maelstrom Pulse makes having Thoughtseize as a first-turn play much less necessary, since I can still deal with Tombstalker and company. The real use is still against combo, and I'm still prepared to throw game 1/rely just on free counterspells until I can sideboard.
Any thoughts on this direction? I quite like the increased tempo and impact of the deck. It feels very natural.
Last edited by Goaswerfraiejen; 12-11-2009 at 07:16 PM.
Just wanted to post an update with regard to the M2010 rules changes, which (I think) leave this deck in an excellent position. As far as I can tell nothing really needs to be replaced (unlike in The Rock, D & T, or Goblins), and the changes do no real harm to this deck. They do, however, harm a number of matchups that were difficult (such as ANT, D & T, and Goblins). While they don't all of a sudden make these matchups a piece of cake, their effect is non-negligible, and I think that they make this an ideal time to be playing Intuition-Thresh. Just remember that Brainstorm/Intuition/Snuff Out have to be cast during the blockers phase (which is usually how it played out anyway, for the purposes of growing Goyf and Coatl through damage).
Also, I've been testing the last list I posted just about every day, and the more I play it, the happier I am with it. Hierarch speeds the deck up significantly, and greatly increases its consistency and resilience to manabase hate. Likewise, Pulse increases its maindeck versatility, which is the deck's calling card. With Coatl now on board, the deck has lost most of its graveyard dependence (largely thanks to the replacement of Mongoose and Werebear), thereby neutering most post-board answers. It's proving to be quite resilient overall.
Are you still happy with those two maindeck deeds? You have 3 open slots in your board, which in my mind would be best used as 3 deeds to help against tribal decks, affinity, etc. Going -2 deed, +1 intution and +1 pulse/shriekmaw seems like a good move because deed has so much anti-synergy.
Deed and pulse are both good against countertop, but both can only (usually) hit balance. Deed and pulse are equally good against EtW tokens. Deed and pulse both kill both players' goyfs in the event of a stalemate.
I'm still very happy with Deed, yes. The ability to hit multiple converted mana costs is incredibly good, as is having an instant-speed Pulse. I haven't really found it particularly anti-synergistic, despite the Hierarchs, simply because it's been hitting the table much later in the game, and after much more consistent mana development and graveyard/board sculpting. Having a reset button is a great asset, and I'm having a hard time letting it go.
With that said, I've been wondering if Putrefy might not also be a viable option here, either for the Deed slot, the Pulse slot, or any combination of the two. As a budget option, it's certainly great. But it's also good because it hits the two targets you most want it to hit: creatures (especially black or manlands) and artifacts, and it's instant-speed. I haven't tested it yet, but I've been thinking about it every time I draw/use Pulse and Deed. It could work.
If anything, I think that keeping those slots as versatile removal slots is important. Adding a fourth Intuition, by contrast, strikes me as much less important: I've been relying on Intuition much less, simply because it's much easier to draw and cast answers with Top and Brainstorm now. Intuition is still very important, and an engine like no other, but I don't think miss that fourth copy one bit. Also, if you want to add something like Shriekmaw, try Fleshbag Marauder instead: in conjunction with Shriekmaw, it gives you fantastic removal options.
Can Acidic Slime find a home in here, or is the cmc just too much to overcome?
I think that the cmc is fine, but the fact that it can't remove creatures as well (save through deathtouch) is a huge blow to its versatility. I'm not sure how many copies would have to be run to make it truly effective: my guess is more than one. At one copy, Gigapede is just better all around (significant threat, huge blocker, easily recurred, shroud, discard outlet). In multiples, I feel like it would just eat up slots that would be better off being used by something else.
That obviously doesn't mean that I'm right (especially without any testing), but that's my initial reaction. 11th edition may yet yield something worth including, however.
Putrefy can't replace Maelstrom Pulse, if your 3cc removal spell can't destroy Enchantments, then you've missed the entire point of using 3cc removal in the first place.
I don't like Coatl, the deck is too top heavy and Coatl does too little the turn he comes into play, I'd rather go back to Tombstalker at that rate.
Maelstrom Pulse is touch and go, you lose your main weapon vs Goblins, Affinity and Merfolk for a marginal gain in the aggro-control mirror ... it's not worth it.
Fair enough.
That's also a perfectly valid point, but I do like having a graveyard-independent threat that's fairly easy to cast. Tombstalker would be the immediate other option, but mana and graveyard issues have me unconvinced. At any rate, some sort of cheap and graveyard independent beater seems like the best use of that slot. Coatl has been very good to me so far, with few problems (but some did crop up, obviously). Any ideas on other options?I don't like Coatl, the deck is too top heavy and Coatl does too little the turn he comes into play, I'd rather go back to Tombstalker at that rate.
I'm not sure I understand your point here, however: what card's been lost?Maelstrom Pulse is touch and go, you lose your main weapon vs Goblins, Affinity and Merfolk for a marginal gain in the aggro-control mirror ... it's not worth it.
I meant Maelstrom Pulse isn't a replacement for Pernicious Deed, because Maelstrom Pulse is marginal vs Goblins, Affinity and Merfolk where Pernicious Deed has a major impact on their board state.
No idea, Tombstalker, Coatl and Werebear all have their faults, but as long as Intuition Thresh relies on the graveyard for it's engine, I don't think it matters if the secondary threat relies on the graveyard as well. I really like Werebear, it fits the curve better than any other threat and it bridges our land light manabase and our 3cc spells.
Edit: You seriously need to cut those singletons, the deck doesn't need 'em and you're drowning yourself in situational draws. Even with Noble Hierarch, I think your deck packs it in to a single Wasteland.
Thanks for the clarification. Deed is still there, it's only lost one copy. I'm perfectly open to bringing it back up to three, however. Fine-tuning the removal suite is a difficult process.
Would you advocate Werebear in addition to Hierarch, or in its slot? The reason that I opted for Hierarch when the choice was between the two was because of its speed, which not only helps to cast threats earlier, but more importantly gives you a solid mana return from a single land/fetch (this, in turn, helps to build resilience to hate).No idea, Tombstalker, Coatl and Werebear all have their faults, but as long as Intuition Thresh relies on the graveyard for it's engine, I don't think it matters if the secondary threat relies on the graveyard as well. I really like Werebear, it fits the curve better than any other threat and it bridges our land light manabase and our 3cc spells.
I'm not entirely sure what you're talking about. There are fewer singletons than there once were. I can only really see two singletons that might fit your bill: Wonder and Raven's Crime, and it seems to me that the reasons to run them are sound, and the weight that they take up is small--especially compared to their regular payoffs. The deck certainly works without Wonder; but it also seems to work much better with it. Hell, at worst, it can just be pitched to FoW. Raven's Crime is much more situational than Wonder, in my opinion. On the other hand, it cleans up Intuition piles, helps to discard Incarnations if necessary, and does a real number on control. In other words, it greatly helps with internal cohesion. I don't doubt that I could live (and sleep easy) with in the sideboard as a complement for Duress/Thoughtseize et. al., but the question remains: what is a better use for that slot? As far as single cards go, I can't really think of any. Which leaves us with the option of multiple cuts elsewhere to free up 3-4 slots, but again, the question is: where?Edit: You seriously need to cut those singletons, the deck doesn't need 'em and you're drowning yourself in situational draws.
Or do you also advocate cutting Wasteland, Loam, Stronghold, Genesis, Eternal Witness, Shriekmaw, and Gigapede? If that's the case, well... I think that would be a significant error. Actually, it would probably give a real reason to run Team America/UGB Counter-Top instead of this in the first place.
On this point, you're completely wrong. I've got hundreds of games' worth of playtesting to back that up, too--it's not just a thought. A recurring wastelock, on the other hand, can sometimes prove problematic--but that's the case with most decks that ventures beyond one or two colours. You've got enough basics to stay afloat, and the manabase is much more stable than, say, ITF's (since ITF is probably this deck's most similar contender). If ITF can manage, so can this. If most three-coloured decks can manage without the added bonuses of Loam and Hierarch, then so can this deck. That's not to say that there isn't room to play with the manabase--for example, black becomes much more important with Pulse, and Green becomes slightly less important with Hierarch. That might mean some minor re-jigging to ensure that black is always available. As long as you don't keep fetching duals in the face of multiple wastelands, the manabase works just fine.Even with Noble Hierarch, I think your deck packs it in to a single Wasteland.
By singletons, I mean Eternal Witness, Wonder, maybe Shriekmaw and maybe Gigapede. You don't need Eternal Witness, once Intuition resolves it'll bury the opponent with Wasteland and Raven's Crime or Genesis recursion. Wonder is situational, Shriekmaw should be in a removal slot and Gigapede should only be used if you're not running a secondary threat.
I can see Noble Hierarch speeding the deck up a turn, but does it really need the speed? Personally I think it needs threat density, otherwise you're just playing ITF with out Balance/Top.
I know it's going to sound "old school," but I almost want to run River Boa, because it can go toe to toe with Tarmogoyf and slip in for damage when the board stalemates.
Protean Hydra looks like it might have some potential in Coatl's slots:
Protean Hydra
XG
Creature-Hydra
Protean Hydra enters the battlefield with X
+1/+1 counters on it. If damage would be
dealt to Protean Hydra, prevent that damage
and remove that many +1/+1 counters from it.
Whenever a +1/+1 counter is removed from
Protean Hydra, put two +1/+1 counters on it
at the beginning of the end step.
0/0
Thoughts?
So for the same cost, you can get your guy Shocked and die?
You'd have to cast it at least for X = 4, and then it's still only as big as a Tarmogoyf and dies to it.
I think it's mana intensive, it really needed to be 1/1 base P/T in order to be playable IMO.
Have you tried Yoda or River Boa?
Yoda? You'll have to forgive me, but I haven't a clue as to which card that is.
I haven't tried River Boa in ages, no, but I'd love a chance to bust them out again. It's one of my favourite cards.
Yoda is mildly used for Troll Ascetic.Yoda? You'll have to forgive me, but I haven't a clue as to which card that is.
I haven't tried River Boa in ages, no, but I'd love a chance to bust them out again. It's one of my favourite cards.
I might try this deck out, but a change I would look into after browsing the various lists would be +4 snuff outs, +0 Shriekmaws -> 3 snuff outs + 1 Shriekmaw. I think the tradeoff of tempo might be less than the tricks that can be done over the long haul and in addition a threat in case the gy gets hosed.
Glad you're interested. One minor point, however (unless I misunderstood you): the deck currently runs 3 Snuffs and a Shriekmaw already.
To go back a few posts, I re-read Protean Hydra and realized how wrong I was. I thought it worked like the Phantom-cycle of creatures (remove one counter every time it's damaged, and prevent that damage), in which case it really would have been amazing. Since you have to remove as many counters as the damage dealt, it's definitely not playable here.
I've been testing out Boa and Troll, and have a few things to report. The first is fairly obvious: running anything other than Coatl/a blue creature means going back to Ponder rather than Top, otherwise the blue count will be too low to consistently support FoW. But that's all right, and not a big deal.
River Boa: Has the advantage of being cheaper on both the casting and regenerating fronts, making it easier to recur. Unfortunately, that also makes it more vulnerable to Counterbalance-based decks, the very decks against which its Islandwalk ability is so relevant (and so amazing). There is another downside, however: against those very Counterbalance-based decks, Boa tends to bite Swords to Plowshares if it flies in under Counterbalance's radar, which nullifies its regeneration. Against Goblins and Merfolk, on the other hand, this little guy is pretty stellar thanks to easy regeneration. Easy regeneration also favours early Deeds.
Troll Ascetic: Troll's one-sided shroud makes it a much more significant threat against most decks, although I've found that I almost never use its regeneration. Even if I blow up Deed, I seldom have enough to spare to regenerate Troll, unless it's the turn after casting Deed. Its three-mana cost also helps it to evade Counterbalance locks, making it a very significant threat in that matchup (after all, it's immune to most of their control elements).
The downside of either creature, of course, is that it denies the consistency of Top-based deck manipulation. Overall, I think that my sympathies lie with River Boa just because of the Goblins and Merfolk matchups, which it helps tremendously. As far as Counterbalance-control goes, this deck can already handle it on its own. As far as other matchups go, however, I'm still uncertain as to what is best. I'll post again once I've got enough testing down to know. Also, I'm heading to Europe for a few weeks, so it may take some time. Unless I find some local Legacy while I'm kicking around, anyway.
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