[Deck] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo

[bum_man]

Thug can make the deck do crazy thing.
I have won to many games from casting thug and sacing to DR or therapy putting a narco on top or a putrid imp to get the dredges out of my hand if I don't have enough of one to justify therapy myself.

Plus thug allows you to win with 0 cards in your library allows you to put a thug on top and then next turn draw play sac put thug on top.

Thug is indeed very useful. It can do a lot crazy things like recycle narcs and putrid imps. Its also a recuring blocker. I like the fact that thug can do these crazy tricks in the deck. But from my experience with the deck, I've lost more games because i wasn't able to keep my bridges in the game long enough than games because i wasn't able to recur narcs or an imp or having a recurring blocker. Thug and Darkblast have very different roles in the deck, they both are the best at what they do. Right now, I'd rather have the role that darkblast plays in my list. If the time comes that I feel darkblast is no longer needed, I'd be more than willing to replace them.
I tried running both in a 12 dredger 14 land deck with 2 breakthroughs and I didn't like it. The deck was inconsistent and the loss of the 1 breakthrough slowed the deck down a lot. I've lost a lot of games that i would have won if the deck was tuned to be faster. Thug and Darkblast are both good, right now I'd rather play Darkblast.

[andrew77]

I still haven't finalized a decklist, but I can say the following. Brainstorm is absolutely amazing. I have added the 4th tireless tribe for extra discard, but regardless brainstorm is much better than breakthrough. Anyway lets compare the 2.

Pro's for Brainstorm:

Instant speed
Can put narcs from hand on top of deck
Much better at finding answers post board
Doesn't destroy your hand when resolves
Rogue/unknown (at least for now)

Pro's for Breakthrough

An extra draw effect
Built in discard

Anyway In my testing brainstorm has just been amazing. It makes the deck more consistant without sacrificing any power. I would say that you are able to put a narc on top of your deck before you dredge for your draw step more often than you would need an extra drege that breakthrough offers.

Here is the decklist I am toying with for the moment.....

14 Lands
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mines
4 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Tarnished Citadel
1 Undiscovered Paradise

4 Brainstorm
3 Careful Study

3 Dread Return
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge From Below
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Eternal Witness/Cephalid Sage

3 Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp

4 Tireless Tribe
4 Ichorid
4 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba

Witness might not make a ton of sense over sage at this point. I guess it would really depend on if you can make use of the sideboard with witness otherwise it would just be boarded out and sage would be a better maindeck choice.

The sideboard is still in the works and changes almsot daily so I will just post a finalized version once I can decide on what works best.

[Joe_C]

Andrew: Seriously: run 4 cabal therapy. It is one of the best cards in the deck. I had considered the 4th tribe myself, but Im not sold that its needed. Brainstorm>Breakthrough? not sure on this one, maybe a mix of the 2 but I wouldnt cut breakthrough entirely since it can dance around chalice @1 and brainstorm just cant do that

[andrew77]

Andrew: Seriously: run 4 cabal therapy. It is one of the best cards in the deck. I had considered the 4th tribe myself, but Im not sold that its needed. Brainstorm>Breakthrough? not sure on this one, maybe a mix of the 2 but I wouldnt cut breakthrough entirely since it can dance around chalice @1 and brainstorm just cant do that

I really dislike therapy as a discard outlet for myself.

If you are playing as a combo deck and do not plan on interacting 4 therapies is overkill. If you do interact, yes 4 therapies are nice, but I prefer the extra chance to draw a permanant discard outlet over a 4th therapy which we only really need against certain matchups anyway. I do have the 4th therapy in the board, but I would say it's rarely needed game one and I needed to cut something to make room so it seemed like the best choice.

On brainstorm my logic was the following. Breakthrough is one of your weakest cards alone. It require you to have something in the yard for it to be good and is also one of the cards you usually board out. Brainstorm was something I had randomely tested previously as a 1 of over a careful study and it really was amazing. The uses it has are great.

Also when it comes to chalice there is no need to worry because there isnt any real difference. Game 1 against a turn one chalice with them on the play you will not be able to do anything special with breakthrough untill maybe turn 4 and thats if you get a lucky dredge or two. If you are on the play their chalice isn't a problem since you will already have started your dredge engine and dragon stompy has no maindeck ways to stop you. Game two you will have ancient grudge and other goodies so it sholdnt be huge problem either. Also, in regards to game one a lot of players will drop chalice for 0 fearing LED if you played first since it is the more common version of ichorid.

[Joe_C]

I really dislike therapy as a discard outlet for myself.

If you are playing as a combo deck and do not plan on interacting 4 therapies is overkill. If you do interact, yes 4 therapies are nice, but I prefer the extra chance to draw a permanant discard outlet over a 4th therapy which we only really need against certain matchups anyway. I do have the 4th therapy in the board, but I would say it's rarely needed game one and I needed to cut something to make room so it seemed like the best choice.

On brainstorm my logic was the following. Breakthrough is one of your weakest cards alone. It require you to have something in the yard for it to be good and is also one of the cards you usually board out. Brainstorm was something I had randomely tested previously as a 1 of over a careful study and it really was amazing. The uses it has are great.

Also when it comes to chalice there is no need to worry because there isnt any real difference. Game 1 against a turn one chalice with them on the play you will not be able to do anything special with breakthrough untill maybe turn 4 and thats if you get a lucky dredge or two. If you are on the play their chalice isn't a problem since you will already have started your dredge engine and dragon stompy has no maindeck ways to stop you. Game two you will have ancient grudge and other goodies so it sholdnt be huge problem either. Also, in regards to game one a lot of players will drop chalice for 0 fearing LED if you played first since it is the more common version of ichorid.

On therapy: true, we want to be the fast combo deck: but how often does that happen? A TON of games are won on the backs of recurring ichords and zombie tokens, therapy gives us a reason to sack creatures to fill the board with tokens and when played from hand then flashbacked is extremely devastating in stopping the opponent from being able to answer your horde of zombies. I cant see dropping below 4. I may do some testing myself with brainstorm, the fact it is an instant makes it truly attractive....

[BreathWeapon]

Brainstorm is really, really strong and not as committal as Breakthrough. I've used it since Day 1 of Non-LED Dredge, and altho' it's more reliant on Putrid Imp and Tireless or DDD, it's ability to draw your answers and fuel your graveyard with out discarding your entire hand and "GGing" yourself to Tormod's Crypt is stellar.

Brainstorm may not be as powerful as Breakthrough game 1, but who cares about game 1? We win game 1 regardless, so if Brainstorm is a reasonable replacement for Breakthrough game 1 and improves game 2, it's the easy pick IMO.

[Joe_C]

I am 4 Foil Gemstone Mine, 4 Foil Ichorid, 4 Foil City of brass away from foiling my entire deck. Anyone got some of these to donate?

Also: BUMP. Keep this on page one guys!

[jimirynk]

I am 4 Foil Gemstone Mine, 4 Foil Ichorid, 4 Foil City of brass away from foiling my entire deck. Anyone got some of these to donate?

Also: BUMP. Keep this on page one guys!

I'm not going to be the only one playing all foil ledless dredge..=(

Btw went 4-3 drop at starcity games 5k..

Round 1,tes. 2-0 me.. don't ask me how..
round 2, zoo 1-2 ... mull to 4 all 3 games he didn't run fanatic or dredge hate fml..
round 3, ant.... 0-2
round 4, black sui 2-0
round 5 nassifs cb 2-0
round 6 eva green 2-1 lost game one after mulling to 4..
round 7 ant with dooms day...1-2 drop..

fml....
my board was
4 ancient grudge
2 ray of revelation
4 chain of vapor
4 leyline of the void
1 ancestors choosen


The leylines might become chailice or orim's chants after all the combo bumming me out.

After playing this deck so much I think 2 deep analysis should be md so many times this deck goes into dredge pass with 2 lands.
I'm going to test.

Also I ran 2 undiscovered paradise over the 1/1 split and was alway happy when I drew 1.

[Joe_C]

I'm not going to be the only one playing all foil ledless dredge..=(


After playing this deck so much I think 2 deep analysis should be md so many times this deck goes into dredge pass with 2 lands.
I'm going to test.

Also I ran 2 undiscovered paradise over the 1/1 split and was alway happy when I drew 1.

Unless you can find me some foil Firestorms, unfortunately I will never probably play a fully foiled version of the deck. And you cant get foil Paradises either

Deep anaylsis has always been bouncing around as a possibility for me too, but the life loss is WAY more noticeable in this version. And also, what to take out? Breakthrough? That is really the most expendable card in the deck... Im back to running 13 land and 3 breakthrough at the moment(3 coliseums, since I cant stand getting 2 in my opening hand- I know the odds are baffling, but it happens to me a shitload when I run 4 so I dont). Breakthrough is one of those love to have it, hate to play it and suck it cards. I would try running brainstorm except I like having a draw spell that I can cast through chalice @1. Also, I would just give up on trying to beat combo. Unless you get the clue that they are playing combo and get to therapy them early and destroy their hand you will likely lose. Its not worth dedicating all the sb to to beat it consitently unless a shitload of people play combo, at least most of the time where I play combo is held down a bit since counterbalance is still rampant....

jimirynk- are you going to Hadley next month? Vestal on the 25th of July?

[jimirynk]

jimirynk- are you going to Hadley next month? Vestal on the 25th of July?

Yes my team travels to anything 6 hrs from nyc.

[jimirynk]

4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Undiscovered Paradise

4 Putrid Imp
3 Tireless Tribe
4 Golgari Grave troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Bridge from Below
3 Breakthrough
4 Cabal therapy
4 Careful Study
4 Narcomoeba
3 Dread Return
1 Cephalid Sage
1 Flame Kin Zealot
1 Reveillark
SB:
4 Ancient Grudge
2 Ray of Revilation
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Ancestor's Chosen

This is the list I've been piloting the last 3 tournaments.
I either have a 4 of leyline vs dredge or 4 combo hate cards.

The only chance vs combo is if you get a therapy in a fast hand on the play or they wiff it.

I think im might try 4 orim's chants over the 4 leylines for the next tournament.
If they don't see one on the dredge i just chant them after their adnassum and its probably gg.

[Joe_C]

jimirynk: keep a lookout for me at hadley. I wear glasses and have a nice scar on my left cheek thats fairly hard to miss. That should make me easy enough to pick out of a crowd

Your maideck is practically the same as mine aside from the fact that I run thug #4 instead of Reveillark, and I run a 1/1 split of paradise/citadel, although I will likely switch to 2 citadel instead. Ive only had the bounce back effect of paradise come in handy like twice out of hundreds of games with the deck, although the damage sucks from citadel, the fact it stays in play after you use it outwieghs the bolt to the face side of it for the most part.

[jimirynk]

I run a 1/1 split of paradise/citadel, although I will likely switch to 2 citadel instead. Ive only had the bounce back effect of paradise come in handy like twice out of hundreds of games with the deck, although the damage sucks from citadel, the fact it stays in play after you use it outwieghs the bolt to the face side of it for the most part.

Opening hands with only one land and x one drops taking 9+ damage from your land alone isn't for me.

Turn one tarnish citadel tap imp 17
turn 2 discard dredger dredge play study 14
turn 3 dredge play breakthrough 11 ???

It is just as fast with a paradise.

[jimirynk]

my sb right now is

4 Ancient Grudge
2 Ray of Revilation
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Unmask
1 Ancestor's Chosen


Unmask is testing good vs combo, not only does it up your discard spells to 8 after board but it also speeds you up to keep pass with combo.

Turn 1 unmask yourself take GGT breakthrough is the dumb nasty.

But I am throwing the mirror....

[Sigar]

How do you guys SB with this deck? If you were to board in 4 chain or 4 needle, what do you take out?

[jimirynk]

If I plan on the opponent siding in crypt or relic I tend to side out my breakthroughs.

I only side in Cov when I expect leyline. So you win game 1 side out breakthrough game 2 and I usually side back in breakthrough If their only hate is leyline.

[jimirynk]

This is how Jaynel sides.


This is what I've been trying:

4 Ancient Grudge
4 Pithing Needle
3 Firestorm
2 Wispmare
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Ancestor's Chosen

Here's how I've been boarding - is this right?

U/x aggro-control/control - varied artifact based graveyard hate (Relic, Crypt, EE):
-1 FKZ
-1 Witness/Sage
-1 DR
-3 Breakthrough
-1 Careful Study/Tireless Tribe (not sure which is better)
-1 Golgari Thug
+4 Ancient Grudge
+3 Pithing Needle
+1 Inkwell Leviathan

Merfolk/Goblins - single artifact based graveyard hate, sacrifice effects (Relic, Mogg Fanatic/Cursecatcher):
-1 FKZ
-1 DR
-3 Breakthrough
-1 Ichorid
-1 Putrid Imp
-1 Golgari Thug
+4 Pithing Needle
+3 Firestorm
+1 Inkwell Leviathan (Merfolk)/Ancestor's Chosen (Goblins)

Zoo/Goyf Sligh - single artifact based graveyard/creature hate (Crypt, Jitte)
-1 FKZ
-1 Witness/Sage
-1 DR
-3 Breakthrough
-1 Ichorid
-1 Golgari Thug
+1 Ancestor's Chosen
+4 Ancient Grudge
+3 Pithing Needle

B/x Aggro - enchantment based graveyard/creature hate, artifact based graveyard hate (Engineered Plague, Leyline, Crypt/Relic)
-1 FKZ
-1 Witness/Sage
-1 DR
-3 Breakthrough
-1 Careful Study
-1 Golgari Thug
-1 Ichorid/Tireless Tribe (unsure on this slot)
+2 Wispmare
+4 Ancient Grudge
+3 Pithing Needle

Combo:
-1 Ichorid
+1 Ancestor's Chosen ()

[jimirynk]

This is how I side when I ran wispmare.



My board.
4 ancient grudge
4 wispmare
4 chain of vapor
1 inkwell leviathan
1 ancestors chosen
1 ray of revelation

Goblins: -3 breakthrough,-1fkz-1 sage/+4 ancient grudges,+1 ancestors chosen

Goyf sligh: -3 breakthrough,-1fkz-1 sage/+4 ancient grudges,+1 ancestors chosen

Merfolk: -3 breakthrough,-1fkz,-1 reveillark/+4 ancient grudges,+1 inkwell leviathan(want to find room to fit in the 1 ray of revelation vs. propaganda)

Uwg thresh: -3 breakthrough,-1fkz,1 reveillark/+4 ancient grudges,+1 inkwell leviathan

Uwx landstill: -3 breakthrough,-1 reveillark/+4 ancient grudge(want to find room to fit in the 1ray of revelation vs. moat/humility)

B/x aggro: Game 2/ -3 breakthrough,-1 reveillark,-1DR,-1FKZ/+4 Cov,+2 wispmare
Game 3/-3 breakthrough,-1reveillark,-1DR,-1FKZ/Side according to hate either +4 ancient grudge,+2 Cov/ Or +4 wispmare,+2 CoV

[Joe_C]

Ive done some limited testing with brainstorm in the deck. I dont think I would replace breakthrough entirely with them, but they are amazing going into your 2nd turn after playing imp or tribe and dredging for a ton during your upkeep. Games 2 and 3 they are superior to study.... its worth me testing more for sure

[andrew77]

Ive done some limited testing with brainstorm in the deck. I dont think I would replace breakthrough entirely with them, but they are amazing going into your 2nd turn after playing imp or tribe and dredging for a ton during your upkeep. Games 2 and 3 they are superior to study.... its worth me testing more for sure

I agree that running a mix of lets say 4 brainstorms/2 breakthrough would be pretty sweet, but that creates a few problems...

1- Your discard outlets drop quite a bit. Even if you manage to run 4 imps/4 tribes, all you will have to go with that would be a total of 4 therpies and studys combined. This would probably mean either 4 therapy/0 study or 3/1 and therapy is really weak discard. I really think 10 discard outlets are needed besides therapy at the very least.

2- in games 2 and 3 the breakthroughs are almost guaranteed to come out. Since game 1 is almost always a bye, why bother running breakthrough when it will rarely be needed.

I have also been running a second undiscovered paradise over the citadel and I have been quite happy with this.