[DTB] Vial Goblins

[Amon Amarth]

If I would play him at all it would most likely be as Goblin Warchief number five. He would be a decent tutor target unlike Goblin Pyromancer he doesn't WoG you. Still I'm not sure there is any room at all for another decent Goblin. Maybe he would have a place in Mono Red. But R/B is really tight already with Weirdings eating up slots.

[no_chi]

@ GreenOne: It has built-in Haste.

What would you guys replace in the maindeck in order to fit the Chieftain? Or are they SB material, or not even good enough to make the cut? I'm thinking if mono-red would go 4 Warchief, 4 Chieftain, but that might be too much. Seems like a good anti-Plague card though.

[scrow213]

@ GreenOne: It has built-in Haste.

What would you guys replace in the maindeck in order to fit the Chieftain? Or are they SB material, or not even good enough to make the cut? I'm thinking if mono-red would go 4 Warchief, 4 Chieftain, but that might be too much. Seems like a good anti-Plague card though.

I think he was saying that it doesn't give itself haste.

[Eseph]

I was just going to hop over and see if you guys had picked up on the chieftain, I would think the best use of him would be as warchief 5-6, or as a 2/3, or 3/3 split.

As to how useful he is, that just boils down to which part of warchief was the important part, the reduced cost, or the haste, or the combination of the 2. Personally I think he definitely deserves a spot in here, he fits in King for added protection/beating whie still giving us the haste of a chief. Need to test it, but I would actually be interested in a 3/2 split in favour of Chieftain. What to take out I dunno though.

Sidenote: This guy makes for one hell of an alpha strike with goblins already on the table.

[Eldariel]

He's much better than Goblin King vs. most of the meta, so the builds that have run King should make the simple swap (save for those that run it as a one-of tutor target vs. Sligh & Tempo Thresh).

That said, as most lists haven't, the question gets hairier. Haste is definitely an important tool in Goblins' arsenal, but I'd still argue that Warchief's power comes from the combination, not one or the other alone. Being able to go Haste > Pile > Pile with 5 mana open, hitting for 11 out of an empty board is just the thing that makes the deck able to steal as many wins as it does. Getting only one Pile and hitting for 6 isn't quite as radical.


That said, if this guy sticks around, it's going to wreak even more havoc than Warchief. I'm probably going to test one and see how I like it. I've really wanted a mass pump effect in the main for those "Tutor, play, think I win?" turns. It's definitely worthwhile to note that in cases where you need both, more muscle and swing this turn, Chieftain gives you both in one fetch. Warbeef would require additional Piles and frankly, it's not guaranteed for Piles to get through. But if you have a horde of mooks, Matron > Chieftain > whatever > swing is very likely to get through for tons and probably end the game.

[Tacosnape]

Chieftain is -not- a Warchief substitute. Period. Cost Reduction >> +1/+1.

That said, I can't believe we're getting a new Goblin that isn't terrible.

Is Chieftain still fantastic? Most definitely. Plague just got a little less frightening. I don't feel the need to run beyond 2, as I already have 4 haste-all guys and 6 should be plenty.

Here's my post M10 R/B Build.

4 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Auntie's Hovel
4 Mountain
4 Wasteland
2 Gemstone Caverns

4 Aether Vial
4 Warren Weirding

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Siege-Gang Commander
2 Goblin Chieftain
2 Frogtosser Banneret

SB:
4 Pyrokinesis
4 Thoughtseize
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Pithing Needle
1 Goblin Tinkerer

[(nameless one)]

i think the new goblin lord has a place in mono-red builds (the mono-red shell has that 3 open slot)

B/R goblins on the other hand... not so sure.

on the other note, has anyone ever playtested bloodmark mentor on mono-red builds?

[Mantis]

The problem with the new lord is that you can't really afford to bring your curve up even more. He isn't stronger than Siege Gang, Ringleader, Matron or Warchief so maybe we can afford to squeeze one in or a couple in the sb but I don't see this as more than that really.

Ectoplasm has tested Bloodmark Mentor I believe. If I recall correctly he was quite pleased with the card but I'd send him a PM just to make sure. I'm not sure how relevant First Strike is right now, see your 1/1's are going to win the battle against Goyf anyway regardless of First Strike. It's good with Piley though, but if my opponent is in a spot where he has to trade his Goyf for my Piley I'll likely win anyway. That said, the card looks like a beating in the mirror so if Goblins is on the rise again I could see making room for a Bloodmark Mentor.

[Ectoplasm]

I ran bloodmark mentor for a couple of months, brought it to a few tournaments and it was decent, though not overwhelming. Note I ran it in RGB not monored. Sometimes it's the nuts, vialing it in after blockers are declared to turn a random combatphase into a plague wind and sometimes it's a dead topdeck. In the end I cut it because it smells like win-more but I certainly consider running it again in the merfolk-infested Dutch metagame right now.

So yeah, good card but it suffers from the kiki-jiki effect a bit, though not as win-more as kiki or mad auntie.

Edit: Also worth noting is that the card itself is a 1/1 first strike without any help from anything which enables some cute tricks as well, in combination with sharpshooter or mogg fanatic.

[Mantis]

Bloodmark Mentor is the epitome of win more against Merfolk actually. See, once we hit a fair amount of Goblins there is no way you can lose to Merfolk if you play correctly. There are two ways in which we can lose to Folks:if they hit Vial and follow it up with Standstill while we have no Vial or if they go threat and then proceed to counter everything we attempt to play. Bloodmark Mentor does nothing to stop either of Merfolks plans, it's only good when you can sling Matrons and cast Piledrivers anyway in which case you really should not lose.

Basically, I generally do not like 1 ofs that reinforce your board position as Toolbox targets as once you are in the position to resolve Matron, isn't fetching either Chief, Piledriver, Incinerator, Ringleader or Siege Gang almost always the better play anyway? I even cut the one-of Stingscourger in my list as I was never fetching it and it sucked every time I drew it.

[GreenOne]

A little of math.

Being able to go Haste > Pile > Pile with 5 mana open, hitting for 11 out of an empty board is just the thing that makes the deck able to steal as many wins as it does. Getting only one Pile and hitting for 6 isn't quite as radical.

Warchief+Pile+Pile= 12 dmg
Chieftain+Pile+Pile= 8 dmg
Warhief+Pile= 5 dmg
Chieftain+Pile= 2 dmg

But if you have a horde of mooks, Matron > Chieftain > whatever > swing is very likely to get through for tons and probably end the game.

Matron+Ringleader+Matron+Warchief= 6 dmg
Matron+Ringleader+Matron+Chieftain= 7 dmg

The built in haste makes a HUGE difference, even more when the guy is alone.

[Eseph]

Warchief+Pile+Pile= 12 dmg
Chieftain+Pile+Pile= 8 dmg
Warhief+Pile= 5 dmg
Chieftain+Pile= 2 dmg

Care to explain the context on those? as in every situation the Chieftain one should be dealing 1-2 more damage than the warchief... The only difference is how many you can play in one turn. Proper math on that (not having any idea of context) would be:

Warchief+Pile+Pile= 12 dmg
Chieftain+Pile+Pile= 14 dmg
Warhief+Pile= 5 dmg
Chieftain+Pile= 6 dmg

And how does built in haste make any difference from Warchief, which also has built in haste?

[GreenOne]

Care to explain the context on those?

That's why I quoted Eldariel. He was referring to playing Warchief+Pile+Pile with 5 mana open and swing for the win.
You can do this with chieftain too, but it costs 7 instead fo 5 and does 8 damage instead of 12. Pretty inefficient compared.

This just means that it should not be compared with Warchief. The card have to be compared with:
- the other kings: Boartusk Liege, Mad Auntie, Goblin King
- with the cards in the slots he's fightning for: Relic, War Marshall, Tinkerer, Stingscourger, Frogtosserer, Tin Street, Fanatic, Prospector, whatever.

[Eldariel]

That's why I quoted Eldariel. He was referring to playing Warchief+Pile+Pile with 5 mana open and swing for the win.
You can do this with chieftain too, but it costs 7 instead fo 5 and does 8 damage instead of 12. Pretty inefficient compared.

This just means that it should not be compared with Warchief. The card have to be compared with:
- the other kings: Boartusk Liege, Mad Auntie, Goblin King
- with the cards in the slots he's fightning for: Relic, War Marshall, Tinkerer, Stingscourger, Frogtosserer, Tin Street, Fanatic, Prospector, whatever.

...I suppose you missed the fact that it has Haste. Here is its ability box:
"Haste
Other Goblin creatures you control get +1/+1 and have haste."

Because it doesn't buff itself, they found it easier to give it Haste as a separate instance. I can see how it'd be confusing, but yeah, it has Haste. You're right though, War -> Pile -> Pile is 12, of course. And for the same mana, you can only play Chieftain + Pile, which is 6.

[Ectoplasm]

Bloodmark Mentor is the epitome of win more against Merfolk actually. See, once we hit a fair amount of Goblins there is no way you can lose to Merfolk if you play correctly. There are two ways in which we can lose to Folks:if they hit Vial and follow it up with Standstill while we have no Vial or if they go threat and then proceed to counter everything we attempt to play. Bloodmark Mentor does nothing to stop either of Merfolks plans, it's only good when you can sling Matrons and cast Piledrivers anyway in which case you really should not lose.

Basically, I generally do not like 1 ofs that reinforce your board position as Toolbox targets as once you are in the position to resolve Matron, isn't fetching either Chief, Piledriver, Incinerator, Ringleader or Siege Gang almost always the better play anyway? I even cut the one-of Stingscourger in my list as I was never fetching it and it sucked every time I drew it.

They can always beat you by throwing a jitte in your face or just playing more men, since they do have their mutavaults and counters and lords. In which case it's nice to have an advantage in the form of bloodmark mentor since they have no real way of getting rid of it, besides aforementioned jitte and echoing truth postboard.
Like I said he is generally an unneeded win-more card and I'm not advocating him, since I don't even play him anymore myself, I'm just going out on a limb and theorycrafting here since people seem to be interested in him and he wasn't that bad.

So, short version: IMO in today's meta, mentor is solid against merfolk since they have no good way to remove him, awful against zoo since he'll get his face burned off at the wrong time, mediocre against 8-thread.dec because he's hit-or-miss and often a dead card even though he helps fighting goyfs and alright against a host of other decks like eva green, affinity, dragon stompy etc.

[GreenOne]

...I suppose you missed the fact that it has Haste. Here is its ability box:
"Haste
Other Goblin creatures you control get +1/+1 and have haste."

Yeah , I missed it, and wow, this thing is getting hot.

As it is, I'd definetly find 1+ maindeck slots (probably 2-3) in monored, and get to free some SB spaces now taken by Boartusk (maybe I'll leave it as a 1of though to deal with double plague and Pyroclasm).

Upping the curve should probably mean to start playing Caverns again as a 1-2of and going up to 24 lands. I'll relegate to SB again those 2 relics in the MD, and probably cut the 1of Fanatic I'm still playing.
Here's the list I will probably run:
// Lands
15 Mountain
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
1 Gemstone Caverns

// Creatures
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Siege-Gang Commander
4 Goblin Matron
0-2 Goblin Tinkerer (meta dependant)
2 Stingscourger
2-4 Goblin Chieftain (depends on how strong the testing reveal he is)

// Spells
4 AEther Vial

// Sideboard
SB: 4 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 Pyrokinesis
SB: 1 Goblin Sharpshooter
SB: 0-1 Boartusk Liege (depends on how much Chieftain works against Plague and Pyroclasm)
SB: 2-3 Anarchy
SB: 2-4 Pithing Needle or Chalice of the Void

[no_chi]

If only Chieftain costs 2R instead of 1RR. (I can dream.) As of now, I'm thinking of replacing 2 Frogtossers with 2 Chieftains, and removing my singleton Fanatic to fit the 4th Piledriver in.

Here's how my Rbg list would look like after M10 is released:

3 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland
4 Mountain
4 Badlands
2 Taiga
2 Rishadan Port

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Frogtosser Banneret
2 Goblin Chieftain
2 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie

4 Aether Vial
4 Warren Weirding

SB:
3 Pyrokinesis
2 Earwig Squad
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Krosan Grip
3 Perish (random SB slots, maybe replaced later on by combo hate)
1 Tranquil Domain

Just a question, since I don't face a lot of Loam decks. How do you guys board for Loam matchups? and CounterTop decks? Thanks.

[Avatara]

Vial Goblins! (Post M10)

// Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
3 [MM] Rishadan Port
14 [8E] Mountain (3)
2 [TSP] Gemstone Caverns

// Creatures
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
1 [AT] Goblin Tinkerer
2 [PLC] Stingscourger
4 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [EVG] Goblin Ringleader
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [US] Goblin Matron
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
1 [ON] Goblin Pyromancer
2 [EVG] Siege-Gang Commander
3 [M10] Goblin Chieftain

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [IA] Anarchy
SB: 3 [AT] Pyrokinesis
SB: 2 [SHM] Boartusk Liege
SB: 3 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter

This is my mono red list after a day of play testing. I don't have enough words to express how much I like Goblin Chieftain. Thank you Wizards!

Here are a few points I would like to discuss/comment:

1. 4 Ports was to much in combination with 2 Gemstone Caverns and the Chieftain's double R cost.
2. 2 Gemstone caverns is really great.
3. 2 Boartusk in the board combined with the 3 Chieftains seem to make Plague concerns history.
4. Sideboard seems to be very universal and balanced but can it be improved?
5. I really like Goblin Pyromancer... it's one of the few tutor targets that actually wins games where Sharpshooter or Siege-Gang can not.

[GreenOne]

// Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
3 [MM] Rishadan Port
14 [8E] Mountain (3)
2 [TSP] Gemstone Caverns

I believe a 24th land is needed in a deck with so many 3-4 cc dudes.
I was thinking about cutting a port for the second caverns too. The double red is going to be needed on turn 3 a lot more.

SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [IA] Anarchy
SB: 3 [AT] Pyrokinesis
SB: 2 [SHM] Boartusk Liege
SB: 3 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter

[...]

4. Sideboard seems to be very universal and balanced but can it be improved?

Are the 2 Boartusk needed now with the MD Chieftain? I'd cut at least one in favour of the 4th Relic or Kinesis.

5. I really like Goblin Pyromancer... it's one of the few tutor targets that actually wins games where Sharpshooter or Siege-Gang can not.

And it's quite often an awful topdeck. It might be better now, with more haste-men in the deck. Pyromancer + Chieftain alone = 11 dmg out of nowhere.

[Avatara]

I believe a 24th land is needed in a deck with so many 3-4 cc dudes.

I get screwed more by to much colorless mana than by not enough red sources to be honest. I understand your concern but I personally believe that you don't need 24 lands unless you run 3 or more Siege-Gangs, fetch lands and/or Worts. To be honest I think 2 Siege-Gang is to much... it's a tutor target... 2 is to less to rely on turn two Lackeys->Siege-Gangs. With the Chief we gain even more mid game strength. My money is on the midgame rather than a lucky early draw. Dropping Siege-Gang Commander to 1 should lower the mana hungry nature of this deck. I haven't tested this yet... it's only theory.

I was thinking about cutting a port for the second caverns too. The double red is going to be needed on turn 3 a lot more.

I might replace the above mentioned Siege-Gang Commander with a Skirk Prospector to smooth the curve even further. More than two Gemstone Caverns simply isn't an option.

Are the 2 Boartusk needed now with the MD Chieftain? I'd cut at least one in favour of the 4th Relic or Kinesis.

Haven't tested with less to be honest. I took 2 in the board from the start 'coz I'm paranoid about getting knocked out by 2 Engineered Plagues. The Chief doesn't replace Boartusk as the latter is immune to Smother and Firespout. I don't always want to spend a Matron on getting a Boartusk Liege. I wanna pressure them enough with other creatures to draw removal away from the the pumpers.

And it's quite often an awful topdeck. It might be better now, with more haste-men in the deck. Pyromancer + Chieftain alone = 11 dmg out of nowhere.

I never liked him either... but I gave the guy a new chance and I'm really impressed. It's as you say... more haste and pumps. This guy steals games.