I am interested in playing this deck at origins. Would evoke creatures be useful for utility in this deck. I realize it plays like a combo deck and is willing to give up things like card advantage to come up with win conditions, but how about incorporating muldrifter into the deck. He doesn't mess with your cascade, pitches to force of will and may allow you to dig into your combo. Legacy in general is probably too fast for muldrifter but I wanted to throw it out there as a possibility.
Mulldrifter is useless in that the only time it's good is before your combo. Putting it into play with Hypergenesis will not be useful the very large majority of the time as there's not anything you need after hypergenesis resolves. It costs too much either way (cmc or alt. cc) to be useful to dig before the combo (turn 3 is too late, ESG/SSG acceleration whatever, it's still too slow). After the combo it's useless at worst, FoW/MisD fodder at best.
Pce,
--DC
Schadenfreude is the most genuine kind of joy, since it doesn't include even a drop of envy.Why can't we just admit it?
i've played this deck today in a 19 men tourney. my result was unimpressive (2-2-1) but i still like this deck. i never had any troubles with going off turn 1-2 really. my build hadn't changed a lot:
4 City of Brass
3 Gemstone Mine
4 Gemstone Caverns
4 Tendo Ice Bridge
2 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Reflecting Pool (had to be the 4th Mine, but i didn't find it. upd: just understood Pool is better than City here as 2 or 3 of)
4 Progenitus
4 Empyrial Archangel
4 Inkwell Leviathan
8 Spirit Guides
4 Ardent Plea
4 Violent Outburst
4 Force of Will
4 Street Wraith
4 Serum Powder
2 Hypergenesis
my sb was:
4 Krosan Grip
4 Volcanic Fallout
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Decree of Silence
1 Oblivion Ring (had to be the 3rd Decree of Silence, but i didn't find it)
my matches were: LED Ichorid (1-1), LED Ichorid (2-0), Train Wreck (0-2), Goblins (1-2), Merfolk (2-1). some thoughts:
ichorid looks like 50/50 or a bit worse pre-board. depends on their hand a lot. after sb we have Leylines+Powders, it's often enough. Faery Macabre can be used too if you expect tons of Ichorids. Just don't forget they can have Gargadons, some random fatties like Akroma or just a Stinky, so don't go off having just a single Archangel or something like that, with Leyline you usually will have enough time to build something better. the worst thing they can have is Blazing Archon (if you don't run Rings as me), but it's a singletone and can't be fetched with Leyline in play, so who cares. Tormod's Crypt isn't popular novadays so Ichorids don't play sb Chalices anymore. that means don't side Grips in against them.
train wreck (it was mbc with a deed+grip splash really) is the worst match you can have. heavy discard, Innocent Bloods, Edicts, Damnations and so on. my plan was a fast genesis into a random fatty plus Decree or Silence. but i had only two of them, so obviously didn't get what i wanted.
goblins can be fast and have some edicts too but seems to be a good matchup anyway. like against ichorid first game is 50/50 and the you have Leylines+Powders, here it's the same thing but with Fallouts instead of Leylines. unfortunately the build i've played against had a full set of Earwig Squads and they are just gg against us. also, playing Violent Outburst agains goblins (and a lot of other decks too), never forget to do it exactly during their upkeep for obvious reasons: they didn't draw additional card yet and their creatures already would't get haste if they don't have a Warchief.
merfolks are bad pre-board because of Cursecatchers, Dazes, FoWs and at the same time still a fast clock. but after sb this match becomes very favorable. all you need is a forced mull into Fallout, it's really that awesome here.
and about some not obvious things in my decklist:
Gemstone Caverns. it had been already discussed at page 5 and i still think that "i draw" strategy here is worth it. i never had turn 0 combo today but i saw turn 1 caverns+land+guide in mb half of all the games i've played. the only thing you really want to play first against is Counterbalance. and maybe Hymn to Tourach too.
Undiscovered Paradise. awesome land. we don't care about it's drawback at all. it's just quite bad in multiples, so play 2 or 3 of.
Street Wraith. some kind of a filler. personally, i like deck thinning and the ability to get an additional chump blocker with Hypergenesis. also, it's the card you can side outcan be replaced with Decrees or some mixture of Misdirection and additional fatties.
Serum Powder. Demonic Dread is bad, Intuition is slow, just 8 cascade spells aren't stable enough. Powder solves this problem. also the ability to have forced mull into Grip, Leyline or Fallout is awesome awesome against Chalice, Ichorid and Merfolk respectively.
Last edited by ykpon; 06-22-2009 at 12:00 PM.
Heres what I'm thinking:
I like this a lot better. As Emidln has pointed out, Show and Tell is a lot better against stuff like Merfolk, Goblins and Zoo. I think this list is a bit more well-rounded against some of the stuff you have been talking about being a bad matchup. I'm also not fond at all of Serum Powder, I find it to be a dead card. I tried it in the SW non-D-Day version of FT way back, and it simply sucked for me. I hate it and think it's wasted space at best.Originally Posted by ykpon
Pce,
--DC
Schadenfreude is the most genuine kind of joy, since it doesn't include even a drop of envy.Why can't we just admit it?
Dark_Cynic87, no offence, but your list seems not to be tested at all.
14 lands means you can't go off without at least one spirit guide and also you nearly never would be able to play Grip or mass removal EOT and cascade next turn. add some wastelands, ports, cursecatchers, dazes, trinispheres etc. they all can easily wreck all your plans.
the other thing is a number of free spells. you just haven't enough fuel for them. your combo needs a lot of cards by itself: at least 3 mana, a cascade spell and a couple of beaters. the other ~2 cards in your hand are to protect combo. and here's what you will get very often in those slots: FoW+Oring/Unmask/SpiritGuide/land/2ndCascade or Unmask+Oring/SpiritGuide/land/S&T. and just 4 FoWs + 4 Unmask are still quite acceptable. but you are going to side Pyrokinesis/Misdirection (or mb even both against merfolk) too, right?
and finally:
i'm sure, it isn't the best combo ever4 Forbidden Orchard
4 Thraximundar
No offense taken, but I test on MWS. I hope this makes my list more explanatory, and while the Thraximundar//Forbidden Orchard is in fact not horrible, it still is a decent turn 1/2 swinger that makes Forbidden Orchard's "draw-back" a non-matter, getting rid of the blocker you gave them. I thought that was what could be understood, that it makes it unable to be blocked by that one creature you gave them early game. Look at Emidln's list. He runs 14 lands and also said that it's been running fine. You need to understand that this is a combo list and that you probably aren't mulliganing as you should be. Also, your little thing for Serum Powder is probably messing up how and when you mulligan as you hate to mulligan if one isn't in your hand, because they are damn useless after mulligan-time is over, making your judgement impaired.Dark_Cynic87, no offence, but your list seems not to be tested at all.
14 lands means you can't go off without at least one spirit guide and also you nearly never would be able to play Grip or mass removal EOT and cascade next turn. add some wastelands, ports, cursecatchers, dazes, trinispheres etc. they all can easily wreck all your plans.
the other thing is a number of free spells. you just haven't enough fuel for them. your combo needs a lot of cards by itself: at least 3 mana, a cascade spell and a couple of beaters. the other ~2 cards in your hand are to protect combo. and here's what you will get very often in those slots: FoW+Oring/Unmask/SpiritGuide/land/2ndCascade or Unmask+Oring/SpiritGuide/land/S&T. and just 4 FoWs + 4 Unmask are still quite acceptable. but you are going to side Pyrokinesis/Misdirection (or mb even both against merfolk) too, right?
and finally:
i'm sure, it isn't the best combo ever
As to the Pitch-cards: I have to disagree. I think there's enough and it's never been an issue for me. Know your matchups and your metagame better and you will know what to use in the maindeck as well as which ones to use and when to use them as well as which ones should be main and which should be sideboarded.
One more thing: As well as your low amount of creatures (note that I said that you could just use Simic Sky Swallower instead of Thrax) and then also a lack of ways to play them other than when you cascade into Hypergenesis (Show and Tell works well). It showed just how lacking in flexibility your list truly was (2-2-1 at a 19 man tourney), and that a couple things needed changing. I was just relaying what has been doing good for me, and that hopefully you could take something useful from my posts.
/last post
I've been looking into Intuition in the Sideboard to grab 3x Prog, keep one, shuffle back and then drop it into play with S&T (again, Emidln's idea). I can't find space right now, but I'm still testing.
Pce,
--DC
Schadenfreude is the most genuine kind of joy, since it doesn't include even a drop of envy.Why can't we just admit it?
Is it possible to add Cloudstone Curio and Bogardan Hellkite to kill when Hypergenesis hits the table?
The list I posted had 16 lands and 8 spirit guides. At least I think four times four is sixteen. Maybe not...
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
This doesn't work the way you think it works. The Hypergenesis needs to finish resolving before the Cloudstone trigger resolves.
looked again, I'm wrong. 16 it is. BTW, Geothermal Crevice is probably better than Sulfur Vent for the list.
Schadenfreude is the most genuine kind of joy, since it doesn't include even a drop of envy.Why can't we just admit it?
Lol, I would imagine so. I don't own foil Geothermal Crevices though...
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
Right...I see. Well, for those of you basing your card choices on something other than aesthetics (such as usefulness, colors and etc.), I would choose Geothermal Crevices. Otherwise, if you have foil Sulfur Vents, use those.
Pce,
--DC
Schadenfreude is the most genuine kind of joy, since it doesn't include even a drop of envy.Why can't we just admit it?
Heretic.
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
Hey guys, I have a question regarding the protection suite. Is it better to play Ardent Plea's and FoW/Misd; or, is it better to run Demonic Dread and Unmask/Thoughtseize? Or, can one run Dreads and a Unmask/Thoutseize with FoW? In my minimal testing, I've found Ardent plea difficult to cast with Geothermal Crevice, and both Spirit Guides.
Team Giancoli. Rocking the mediocrity since 2008.
Thoughtseize doesn't work very well in this deck.
Irrigation Ditch and Sulfur Vents both produce U off their sac ability. This lets them cast either Show and Tell or Ardent Plea with only a single other land. Irrigation Ditch further produces white if you don't want to sac it, leaving it open for potential use to casting Ardent Plea and then something else if the Plea's cascade doesn't work.
I'm convinced that the following is the correct order for inclusion of the cheating effects:
Show and Tell
Violent Outburst
Ardent Plea
Demonic Dread
Show and Tell is best because nothing the opponent drops save for Moat/Humility can effectively deal with our top two threats (Prog/Inkwell) and even a strong Goyf has difficulty matching Empyrial Archangel or Simic Sky Swallower.
Violent Outburst is the easiest to cast cascade spell with the added benefit of instant speed.
Ardent Plea has a useful side effect (the exalted can be nontrivial if the opponent puts somewhat relevant dudes on the table). The white/blue is awkward to cast, but it is pitchable to the two best cards to protect our combo (Force of Will and Misdirection).
Demonic Dread requires a creature meaning that it's best against aggro decks (something we should typically crush) and will require a Forbidden Orchard to be useful against control or combo. This puts it at the back of my list. Demonic Dread does enable Unmask, although the normal creature base doesn't tend to support Unmask very well.
For those of you using Misdirection, it should be noted that you can sometimes Misdirect Stifle to your City of Brass. The key to this lies in announcing your cascade spell first and then paying for it with City of Brass. At this point there will be two triggered abilities that go on the stack. I would suggest putting the cascade trigger on top of the stack so it resolves with the one life point lifeloss still on the stack in case of Stifle. This might also be useful in bluffing Misdirection to a competent opponent.
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
// Lands
3 [BOK] Tendo Ice Bridge
3[CHK] Forbidden Orchard
4 [JGC] Gemstone Mine
4 [AN] City of Brass
4 [SHM] Reflecting Pool
// Creatures
2 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
4 [ARB] Sphinx of the Steel Wind
4 [CFX] Progenitus
4 [CFX] Magister Sphinx
// Spells
4 [MM] Misdirection
2 [TSP] Hypergenesis
4 [ARB] Ardent Plea
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [ARB] Violent Outburst
4 [ARB] Demonic Dread
2 [MM] Unmask
// Sideboard
SB: 3 [RAV] Blazing Archon
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [GP] Angel of Despair
SB: 2 [MM] Unmask
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
Just saying.
I got to play against Hypergenesis a while ago at Over the Edge. Game 1 I was able to counter his Hypergenesis, which seems like it should happen a lot. The second game was much more memorable. He played a land and passed. I dropped an island and passed. On his turn he used a spirit guide to play his cascade spell, my brainstorm reveals no Force of Will or Daze, so it resolves.
He drops Sphinx of the Steel Wind
I drop Counterbalance
He drops Woodfall Primus
I drop Dark Confidant
He's out of creatures to drop
I drop Dark Confidant
I drop Sower of Temptation
I drop Sower of Temptation
I untapped with 20 points of damage ready to go :D
Sounds like a shitty build. The whole point is to have creatures that can win the game uninterrupted, meaning creatures with shroud or protection from swords/bounce. Sometimes you can only drop one or two creatures, so you need to be sure that they stick on your side. I see Magister Sphinx as an exception to this, but it compensates by dealing ~10 damage anyway. I'm still not sure if it good enough, though. In last tournament I remember winning games with it and losing games because of it. Go figure.
// Lands
3 [BOK] Tendo Ice Bridge
3 [CHK] Forbidden Orchard
4 [JGC] Gemstone Mine
4 [AN] City of Brass
4 [SHM] Reflecting Pool
// Creatures
2 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
4 [ARB] Sphinx of the Steel Wind
4 [CFX] Progenitus
4 [CFX] Magister Sphinx
// Spells
4 [MM] Misdirection
2 [TSP] Hypergenesis
4 [ARB] Ardent Plea
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [ARB] Violent Outburst
4 [ARB] Demonic Dread
2 [MM] Unmask
// Sideboard
SB: 2 [MM] Unmask
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
SB: 4 [SHM] Firespout
SB: 1 [DIS] Bond of Agony
fixed.
ahahah
this deck brings the lawlz.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't they make it so this doesn't work anymore?
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