[Deck] UW(x) Landstill

[FoolofaTook]

@NQN - black splash and no Vindicate? What's the plan against Planeswalkers?

The black splash expresses its power in 3 ways, first it gives you access to Vindicate which is the strongest single card removal in the game, second it gives you access to EE@3, and finally it gives you access to Extirpate and maybe Diabolic Edict in the wish board. I just don't see opening yourself up to extra non-basic hate unless you are getting the best bang out of the transaction.

[NQN]

I splash black for EE@3, Extirpate and sometimes E.Plagues.
My "plan" against Planeswalker is that since nobody except us plays them,
the legendary rule is helpful sometimes ;)

[FoolofaTook]

I splash black for EE@3, Extirpate and sometimes E.Plagues.
My "plan" against Planeswalker is that since nobody except us plays them,
the legendary rule is helpful sometimes ;)

That works for Elspeth and maybe Jace. The Planeswalkers that I fear at the moment are Garruk and the Ajani's. Garruk because he over-rides Humility when he alpha-strikes and the Ajani's because they mess with a control concept's inevitability.

[rsaunder]

That works for Elspeth and maybe Jace. The Planeswalkers that I fear at the moment are Garruk and the Ajani's. Garruk because he over-rides Humility when he alpha-strikes and the Ajani's because they mess with a control concept's inevitability.

I haven't had much issue honestly. They're rarely played as it is and IF they hit the table I've never been unable to kill them off within a few turns with factories and decree tokens.

That being said, if they do become more prevalent, I bet that my "kill them" strategy won't be quite enough. Is there any good wishable answer to 'em?
Other than something like wipe away I suppose.

[FoolofaTook]

I haven't had much issue honestly. They're rarely played as it is and IF they hit the table I've never been unable to kill them off within a few turns with factories and decree tokens.

That being said, if they do become more prevalent, I bet that my "kill them" strategy won't be quite enough. Is there any good wishable answer to 'em?
Other than something like wipe away I suppose.

Garruk is played enough at this point to be a problem and the Ajani's are both on the rise. The problem I have with Garruk is that the untap lands ability leads to continual acceleration once he hits the board and allows for much easier plays to bait out counters. Then the tokens that he creates become either chump blockers that can kill a Mishra's or build up over time under a Humility until the alpha-strike.

[GGoober]

I've played against a random Token deck with bitterblossom and Garruk AND Fecundity. You have no idea how happy I had Vindicate. It saved my ass against Garruk. wrath did nothing and my factories were worthless.

Bitterblossom is easier to deal with with EE, but Garruk/Fecundity/CB/random shit is solved by Vindicate. 3 Vindicate has been good for me. I'm not sure about 4. I will probably want to play the 2nd Fact instead of the 4th Vindicate.

To be honest, if your meta isn't filled with non-basic hate (wastes/moons/B2B), 4c Landstill is easily the superior version (but that's the other thread for discussion :)) since Deeds does everything Vindicate does but better (except killing Planeswalker, which you have to counter). Garruk seems pretty good in UWg Landstill, but green doesn't offer much other than Grips and Loam. It's also another build worth exploring, but the black builds are definitely stronger with better wish targets and Vindicate.

[NQN]

I´ve once played against a random deck with Darksteel Forge and Nev.Disk and Darksteel Reactor and when he´s able to play them all I don´t stand a chance OMG where fucked up since we need solutions for all those nasty cards coming upon us :( [Cunning Wish -> Return to Dust still works. - Nihil]
Srsly, I´ve never saw a Garruk in front of me in an eternal tourney and the same goes for Ajani...

[Citrus-God]

I´ve once played against a random deck with Darksteel Forge and Nev.Disk and Darksteel Reactor and when he´s able to play them all I don´t stand a chance OMG where fucked up since we need solutions for all those nasty cards coming upon us :( [Cunning Wish -> Return to Dust still works. - Nihil]
Srsly, I´ve never saw a Garruk in front of me in an eternal tourney and the same goes for Ajani...

You could splash for a 4th color and just cast EE for 4. The requirements of doing this is almost minimal, really. Also, this let's you run other cards from the SB, like REB/Pyroblast, Krosan Grips, Pernicious Deeds, and other goodies. But I've also learned that the best ways to beat decks with Planeswalkers is to... you know... run Counterspell. Really. Once you start chaining card advantage of BS, Standstills, FoF and/or SDTs, you should be winning.

[NQN]

Meh, that should be an example of how stupid it is to try to have an answer for everything. It´s obvious that PWs are nuts against us, but since actually only a few players have noticed how awesome they are it´s not an issue at all.

grtz,
nqn

[FoolofaTook]

You could splash for a 4th color and just cast EE for 4. The requirements of doing this is almost minimal, really. Also, this let's you run other cards from the SB, like REB/Pyroblast, Krosan Grips, Pernicious Deeds, and other goodies. But I've also learned that the best ways to beat decks with Planeswalkers is to... you know... run Counterspell. Really. Once you start chaining card advantage of BS, Standstills, FoF and/or SDTs, you should be winning.

Splashing a 4th color for EE@4 creates another layer of vulnerability in the deck, this time to Moon effects and increased susceptibility to Back to Basics, Wasteland/Crucible, etc. 4c Landstill is much tougher to play at the moment than it was before the Stifle/Wasteland phenomenon began finding it's way into so many leading aggro-control competitors.

One of the huge benefits of playing Landstill is that it's such a resilient deck. UWb Landstill is maybe the most resilient build in the archetype because it has access to so many non-specific removal cards and sweepers, and has easily available graveyard hate.

[Ectoplasm]

Don't forget you can actually go for the throat and vindicate lands, along with throwing some wastelands around like a pro.
One time I was playing ANT and in the end all he had left was a snow-covered item, I played EOT brainstorm, ripped a vindicate and made him cry on his (completely empty) side of the table.

[kroelai]

Don't forget you can actually go for the throat and vindicate lands, along with throwing some wastelands around like a pro.
One time I was playing ANT and in the end all he had left was a snow-covered item, I played EOT brainstorm, ripped a vindicate and made him cry on his (completely empty) side of the table.

I did not cry

[ebbitten]

Don't forget you can actually go for the throat and vindicate lands, along with throwing some wastelands around like a pro.
One time I was playing ANT and in the end all he had left was a snow-covered item, I played EOT brainstorm, ripped a vindicate and made him cry on his (completely empty) side of the table.

I've found this to be especially true with speedstill varients where you can actually have a chance at capitalizing on the tempo especially post board. Landstill may not be a tempo deck but if you can keep their lands off for long enough it does benefit from that "tempo".

[Taishaku]

One of the huge benefits of playing Landstill is that it's such a resilient deck. UWb Landstill is maybe the most resilient build in the archetype because it has access to so many non-specific removal cards and sweepers, and has easily available graveyard hate.

I agree.

However, the non-specific nature of UWb Landstill can be dangerous. For instance, although Vindicate is an excellent Swiss Army Knife, it is not nearly as useful as more Sword effects in an aggro matchup; you can't hope they'll be color screwed every game.

[Taishaku]

@Jak.
Then don't name your deck after it. Unless you're a fan of naming decks like "Solidarity" or "Rabid Wombat." When you say Burning Landstill, I assume your deck revolves around Burning Wish, much like how Cunning Landstill makes a big deal about Cunning Wish.

"Going turn 3 Burning Wish--> turn 4 Firespout will win you the game against Merfolk, Elves, and Goblins..."

You do realize of course that you're pretty much announcing to your opponent that you intend to play Firespout, and that you are willing to sacrifice a turn where 1cc Engineered Explosives can safely clear Cursecatcher and Aether Vial? Also, if you're waiting until turn four to kill off the opponent's creatures, you might as well quit early. The key to stopping Merfolk and whatnot is to contain them early, killing their lords, shutting down their engines, etc.

Fire/Ice is the only burn card that can two for one in the manner described, unless we are talking about "AoE" type burn like Pyroclasm. And then, these only kill off weenie creatures. Your Flamespout and Fire/Ice are worthless against Tarmogoyf, which is in virtually every deck that plays green these days; Swords, Path, Wrath, and Vindicate are not. White/black is clearly superior to red in terms of removal because of creatures like Tarmogoyf, Mystic Enforcer, and heck, even Werebear. (On a sidenote, I typically run 4 Swords, 2 Path, 3 Wrath, 3 EE, with 2 Path, 4 BEB, and 1 Wrath in the sideboard; my metagame is very aggro.)

Quite honestly, you will be hard-pressed to find situations where you can announce to another control deck what you plan on doing the next turn at sorcery speed and actually do it. Doing a turn four Burning Wish for Telemin Performance generates a dead card unless you necessarily have more Force of Wills than they do Counterspell/Mana Leak/Negate and Force of Wills. Losing the counter war gambles away an open turn in a control matchup, and a control deck that has no options to react is a dead control deck.

All I see Burning Wish do is to provide options for game one silver bullets. Game two, it is simple to sideboard out Burning Wish for whatever silver bullet you want. But in the meanwhile, you are sacrificing speed for what looks on paper to be an easy win; perhaps you can read the flavor text of Mana Leak for my opinion on this.

[Roman Candle]

Your Flamespout and Fire/Ice are worthless against Tarmogoyf, which is in virtually every deck that plays green these days; Swords, Path, Wrath, and Vindicate are not. White/black is clearly superior to red in terms of removal because of creatures like Tarmogoyf, Mystic Enforcer, and heck, even Werebear.

He's got a point guys. Clearly we can't play white removal alongside Fire/Ice in our UWr control decks. Blasphemous.

[Jak]

@Jak.
Then don't name your deck after it. Unless you're a fan of naming decks like "Solidarity" or "Rabid Wombat." When you say Burning Landstill, I assume your deck revolves around Burning Wish, much like how Cunning Landstill makes a big deal about Cunning Wish.

"Going turn 3 Burning Wish--> turn 4 Firespout will win you the game against Merfolk, Elves, and Goblins..."

You do realize of course that you're pretty much announcing to your opponent that you intend to play Firespout, and that you are willing to sacrifice a turn where 1cc Engineered Explosives can safely clear Cursecatcher and Aether Vial? Also, if you're waiting until turn four to kill off the opponent's creatures, you might as well quit early. The key to stopping Merfolk and whatnot is to contain them early, killing their lords, shutting down their engines, etc.

Fire/Ice is the only burn card that can two for one in the manner described, unless we are talking about "AoE" type burn like Pyroclasm. And then, these only kill off weenie creatures. Your Flamespout and Fire/Ice are worthless against Tarmogoyf, which is in virtually every deck that plays green these days; Swords, Path, Wrath, and Vindicate are not. White/black is clearly superior to red in terms of removal because of creatures like Tarmogoyf, Mystic Enforcer, and heck, even Werebear. (On a sidenote, I typically run 4 Swords, 2 Path, 3 Wrath, 3 EE, with 2 Path, 4 BEB, and 1 Wrath in the sideboard; my metagame is very aggro.)

Quite honestly, you will be hard-pressed to find situations where you can announce to another control deck what you plan on doing the next turn at sorcery speed and actually do it. Doing a turn four Burning Wish for Telemin Performance generates a dead card unless you necessarily have more Force of Wills than they do Counterspell/Mana Leak/Negate and Force of Wills. Losing the counter war gambles away an open turn in a control matchup, and a control deck that has no options to react is a dead control deck.

All I see Burning Wish do is to provide options for game one silver bullets. Game two, it is simple to sideboard out Burning Wish for whatever silver bullet you want. But in the meanwhile, you are sacrificing speed for what looks on paper to be an easy win; perhaps you can read the flavor text of Mana Leak for my opinion on this.

Wow, I can tell you didn't look at the decklist too hard. And wtf is up with you caring about the name. I don't even think I was the one that called it "Burning Landstill".

You do realize I had Wrath, Swords, EE, and Fire/Ice alongside those Burning Wish, right? I run just as much removal as most Landstill players. In place of 2 Decrees, I run Burning Wish. I actually have a stronger aggro MU than UWb because I run more efficient answers (ie Fire/Ice over Vindicate).

In your next paragraph, I don't even know what you are saying. I run Wrath, Swords, and EE. Wtf are you trying to get at? I could nitpick the UWb lists and say how Vindicate is horribly slow against Merfolk but would that be right? Every deck has weaker cards for some decks in their Maindeck.

You know what you could also do? Wait two turns, then cast Wish for Telemin. You have time against control. My list also more counters than the 4 Force and 4 Spell Snare lists I am seeing. I don't see why when you are going for the win that you would not wait.

Don't Burning Wish and Cunning Wish essentially have the same roles in the deck? They are those utility spells. You don't even need to SB them out since they still work well postboard.

[Taishaku]

@Roman Candle
Why run spells that cannot deal with one of the most common creature threats out there? Why not run all white/black removal? I mean heck, SMOTHER would work better than Fire/Ice when you need to handle Tarmogoyf or Kird Ape.

@Jak.
If you didn't call it Burning Landstill, then why did you answer me as if you did? Do you normally answer questions on the behalf of others? It would simplify things if you did not, as I typically do not dedicate time to memorizing who said what in this thread.

Where did I say you didn't run white removal? I simply said white is better to the point where red is an unnecessary splash, which is the crux of my argument. Yes, Fire/Ice is better than Vindicate and red equivalent to white/black in matchups against "weenie" aggro, like Merfolk or Goblins. But Fire/Ice or Flamespout is pretty dead when you need to stop a Tarmogoyf or Threshold Werebear (or pretty much anything with more than 3 toughness).

But don't get me wrong, I think Fire/Ice is an excellent card; even if it is useless, you can at least tap the Tarmogoyf and dig for another answer. However, I do not think Fire/Ice and Burning Wish justify splashing red over black or even green.

And on yet another sidenote, I don't play UWb, but I do believe that UWb is the strongest traditional Standstill variant out there.

The more time you wait, the more time they have to prepare to stop a sorcery speed card. I mean, it is really easy to play around such a limited timeframe; it's not like Solidarity, where you have to keep on your toes. Anyway, you deserve to kill control decks with Performance if they're only running 4 Spell Snare and 4 Force of Will. But when they have Counterspells, having a 5 mana disadvantage is problematic. And if they run Vendillion Clique, you may never see that Performance again.

No. Cunning Wish is instant speed. It's like me saying: "Isn't Assault the same thing as Shock?" Control needs to keep options open whenever possible. Cunning Wish can find answers to threats during an opponent's turn and use them right away, all the while keeping their mana open during the main phase. Burning Wish cannot do this. It has to be played during your turn and leaves you rather vulnerable early on; its slot might be better used for additional removal or permission.

[Citrus-God]

Meh, that should be an example of how stupid it is to try to have an answer for everything. It´s obvious that PWs are nuts against us, but since actually only a few players have noticed how awesome they are it´s not an issue at all.

grtz,
nqn

Not really. It really is almost minimal. Look at this mana base

3 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
2 Plains
2 Island

2 Eternal Dragon

And in addition to that, running Counterspells. It's basically minimal effort when it comes to just having more diverse colors to cast EE.

Splashing a 4th color for EE@4 creates another layer of vulnerability in the deck, this time to Moon effects and increased susceptibility to Back to Basics, Wasteland/Crucible, etc. 4c Landstill is much tougher to play at the moment than it was before the Stifle/Wasteland phenomenon began finding it's way into so many leading aggro-control competitors.

One of the huge benefits of playing Landstill is that it's such a resilient deck. UWb Landstill is maybe the most resilient build in the archetype because it has access to so many non-specific removal cards and sweepers, and has easily available graveyard hate.

If anything, you are vulnerable to those cards not because you run 4 Basic lands, 6 fetchlands and 14 non basics, you're vulnerable to those cards because you're playing Landstill.

[Misplayer]

Wow Taishaku, you really have quite the crusade going against UWr builds. I think Burning Wish is viable, so does Jak. It sounds like he's tested it with success, whereas you continue to run out hypotheticals where it sucks, which as Jak pointed out, is pretty easy to do (and Vindicate is too slow in the Merfolk matchup).

Also, I think you're overvaluing instant speed. Wrath of God is sorcery speed and is worth it. Vindicate is sorcery speed. Permanents (EE, Elspeth, Disk) are sorcery speed and these cards all make the cut. Now I'll admit that Burning Wish is a mid-to-late game flex card and it's relatively weak early (mostly because the B.Wish targets I run are weak early). There are situations where you're put into topdeck mode late game because you've just spent your resources on creating a neutral board...err..Battlefield. You topdeck Vindicate and pass, or you topdeck Burning Wish -> Banefire/Performance and win.

The larger point is games 2/3 I'm packing 4 Spell Snare, 4 FoW, 2 Counterspell PLUS 3 REB, so yeah, Performance will probably get there in the control mirror. I think access to REB alone makes the splash worthwhile in the current metagame, Burning Wish is just a potentially flexible answer/finisher.