I'd run Forbiddan Orchard instead of Undiscovered Paradise.
Truth, I don't know why people keep thinking that card is even viable, losing a land drop in a 4 to 5c deck is just epically bad compared to a 1/1Originally Posted by Arsenal
I agree regarding the A point
regarding to the A point we never will face M.Mage in first game, therefore this point is wrong, and having Tendrils in side is a better option because it's supposed that post A.N we will win because of our tutors->tendrils.
Tendrils is as bad card as IGG in main, in my opinion, except when we play vs burn, but honestly, thats not agueable.
Regarding to the mana base 10 lands is few, 11 is just 1 more and 12 is optimal, why ANT decks plays 14 and we 10 only ¿?
I don't agree that this deck is based on the Vintage Tendrils decks , but if they play 10 lands is because the play Moxen (Ruby,Sphire...) and you HAVE to agree with me that Moxen IS NOT chrome mox or lotus petal... thats sooo incorrect...
You realize that Tendrils is by far the best card you can draw versus control? Build up to 8 cards, cantrip then play out your hand drawing out counterspells and win. I do this way more than people imagine.
Because we're not the same deck as ANT? I'm not going to argue that this deck is based off Grim Long. I know what I looked at when building TES. 11 lands is optimal, 12 lands may be too many. I often get flooded with 11. Last week I hit 6 land drops in a row against Landstill.
On a different topic, I'm cutting an Ad Nauseam from my list and a Mystical. I want a Ponder, the second slot is up in the air. It was originally Silence, but it's not out yet and I feel something else may be better.
- I agree tendrils is the best card when we play vs control, then the question is why you play only one in main deck?.
- In my list playing 4 A.N 4 duress 4 burnin and 4 orims I do not mind having tendrils or not in hand because I'm well prepared vs control, i mean my strategy simply wins theirs.
- and another point is that if you trust in tendrils vs control match ups you really are not making a good approach , you know why?
simply because you play only 1 copy.
Enough?.
Because it's all you need? If you really want a second you can Burning Wish for one. Why do you play Zero maindeck? To make yourself weak versus hate? You could make the 4th Ad Nauseam a Tendrils and not lose to your own deck.
How does your Strategy simply win? I don't see how. You play 1 more protection spell and 3 additonal clunky cards.
Bryant, why the hell would you want to cut 1 Ad Nauseam ? You know very well it's the best bomb this deck offers, and it seals game a lot more quickyl than how IGG does, other than being Not graveyard -dependant, and more resistant to counterspells and hate. Ok, it depends on life, but hell, using it to go off on 2nd turn should mean you're at worst at 16 lives or so.
Not to mention that playing 1 may force you to mystical the majority of the time for it, but since you're cutting 1 mystical, i see this very hard.. and ITing for it isn't always that fast ( and it would suffer even cards like Snare more than how it does now).
And if they discard the only 1 you have, or you're forced to pitch it to a Mox?
Really, I can't get your point of doing this.
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Lately I've been having awful luck with it. Losing at 20 life and not making a land drop after boarding out Igg. I'll probably stay at two, but I'm fucking TIRED of losing in a winning scenario.
a)
Wrong ¡ all you need is Burning wish , THATS SIMPLE Why? because it access to Tendrils
b) don't understand
c) Silly question I do not expect to face in game 1 :
- M.Mage
- duress + extirpate
d) I repeated before that playing 2A.N = 1IGG + 1tendrils + 2 mana
I could run 3+1tendrils for sure but I simply find it useless ,Why : The most of the times I prefer to draw A.N don't you?
e) 3 additonal clunky cards == to 3 A.Nauseam ,you mean ? because if so We can't going on discussing...
I don't even understand why you say this , you have been playing 1IGG+1Tendrils+2A.N configuration which is exactly equal to 4A.N+2mana ; well I play the same and even I reduce the mana average playing +2 lands
I'm done trying to argue with someone who doesn't understand basic logic.
You can't cut ToA, you're not always going to win with Ad Nauseam, if you cut ToA from the MD then you may as well cut Diminishing Returns from the SB, because the odds of Diminishing Returns removing Ad Nauseam and the additional 1R for Infernal Tutor->Burning Wish->Tendrils of Agony make it pretty much unplayable.
In short, you're doing it wrong.
@Piceli
I don't think 1 more Ad Nauseam makes a difference vs Spell Snare, that card bitch smacks us pretty hard regardless - I usually board in 3 ETW in those match ups.
I don't even want to get into any kind of an argument about what I am testing, I'm posting my most current list for reference:
Instants:
4x Brainstorm
4x Dark Ritual
4x Mystical Tutor
2x Cabal Ritual
1x Ad Nauseam
1x Pact of Negation
1x Wipe Away
Sorceries:
4x Burning Wish
4x Rite of Flame
4x Duress
4x Ponder
2x Infernal Tutor
1x Ill-Gotten Gains
Artifacts:
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Lotus Petal
2x Chrome Mox
Lands:
4x Polluted Delta
4x Bloodstained Mire
2x Underground Sea
2x Volcanic Island
1x Badlands
1x Island
Sideboard:
3x Vexing Shusher
2x Red Elemental Blast
2x Hurkyl's Recall
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Grapeshot
1x Ill-Gotten Gains
1x Diminishing Returns
1x Infernal Tutor
1x Thoughtseize
1x Shattering Spree
Like discussed earlier in the thread, I've been having some terrible luck with my Ad Nauseam flips. I'll be at 16-18 life, cast Ad Nauseam and not be able to win due to life loss, so I cut one Ad Nuaseam and added Ill-Gotten Gains mainboard again.
Also, I feel like Vexing Shusher should be mentioned. He really is the MVP against the Counterbalance match up. Not to mention he's actually got synergy with Lion's Eye Diamond, unlike the blasts. Although he does require a land increase, I really don't think you can play 10-11 land and play Shusher effectively.
Who cares if she was dead, we did her anyway...
You need to run more moxes...atleast 1...I tried running 3 for awhile and than I realized that flipping moxes with ad nauseam makes it a lot easier to win. I know it sucks having 2 in your opening hand but it definitley makes for better Ad Nauseam flips to run 4. Also, why run IGG md without Tendrils of Agony?
Last edited by Jim Higginbottom; 07-03-2009 at 11:22 AM.
Cut the 2 cabal rituals for 2 more moxen...you'll be able to flip several more cards off of ad nauseam if you do this.
I'd cut the Bloodstained Mires for Flooded Strands: the only land flooded can't take is Badlands, but you still have the access to all colors, and to the basic land.
Currently Playing: Nourishing Lich.Deck
Current Record: 1-83-2
Agree, anyway I'm programmer and my logic is quite good
maybe you do not uderstand the basis becuase you have been playing the deck so many time that you can't evolutionate the base.
Soooooo what you are a programmer that makes your logic in "improving" the deck better than bryants experience??? Ok...
Iam a programmer too btw... and that has really nothing to do with "logic" in building your TES list.
To All
Sincerely: this topic is becoming quit shitty. Sorry for having said that, but it's the truth. People carry on posting their own list which have many flaws and expecting to receive a feedback, instead of contributing together to improve the version which has revealed to be the better, which is the one in the OP. I'm not claiming this because Cook has invented TES so his version is surely better than the others , but lists without Tendrils, without Chants, and with 3 or > Nauseams simply suck. It's an objective fact. We are not playing against fools, and combo is already having a not-always-that-good time against blue decks, which are the ones to beat consistently. Against Dreadstill, how can you expect to pull off a victory when you duress him and he can hide the counters with Brainstorm, or you see something like "fow, daze, snare, stifle" in his hand? You take 1 of em (arguably force) and proceed to get fucked by the others, or to wait other turns until he lands Counterbalance on the ground and rapes you totally.
For this reason, I consider the opening list to be at least the most representative point from which devolping furtherly the deck.
I think, as i said above, that a couple of points should not even be questioned:
-Chant is the best protection spell for this deck. Do not play 4-ofs if you don't want it, but for christ's sake, a spell that eludes Stifle and Snare which both fuck this deck so hard is >>> Duress. Which should be played too, obv, but not as the only protection, because against blue decks, it won't be able to do the job alone.
-Tendrils must remain main deck. Ok, sometimes it sucks when you draw it, but it's a necessary evil. But, as Bryant said, sometimes you can build a victory just from 8 cards in hand and getting help from oppo's counters to reach the 10-number; and moreover, a list without Tendrils can't play IGG maindeck too, since it can't do the famous "dark rit-IT-LED" loop with IGG, which is damnly strong. At the end of this, what would you take with 4 mana left? burning wish for..grapeshot ? Wow man.
Everything else in the deck can be customized and built in the air, but please, i think that lists without these 2s shouldn't even be commented , unless they win an important tournament ( but still, even if they did, personally I couldn't stand them). And the points i mentioned above are not speculations of mine, but concrete facts proven by lots of tournament and play testing (tournaments, most of all).
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The problem with Vexing Shusher is that he's slow, expensive and BEBable. The best strategy vs Counterbalance is to either SB in Empty the Warrens (Depending on the presence of Stifle and board control) or SB in Pyroblast, turning the opponent's Counterbalance into a Sphere of Resistance doesn't do you much good unless you get Burning Wish->Removal, and even then Counterbalance bought them so much time for Tarmogoyf to run over your ass.
I more or less agree with Piceli, I'd add Dual Lands and Undiscovered Paradise to his list, but I'm not certain Orim's Chant is a "sacred cow" because a lot of disruption configurations are viable (4 Duress and 3 Thought Seize in my build for instance, or even 4 Duress and 3 Orim's Chant in Bryant's build). It really depends on what your strategy is, for instance discard is way better than Chants when you SB in Empty the Warrens or when you're on the draw, and Chants are better when you're not up against Counterbalance.dec or on the play etc. You've got a lot of customizability between the MD and the SB for your disruption package, I board in and out different disruption all the time based on whether or not I'm ahead, behind, playing, on the draw or know my opponent's counter package.
Agreed. We shouldn't take up an entire page discussing sub-optimal lists.
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