Well, wouldn't Caller of the Claw be better in SB than WellWisher ??Originally Posted by troopatroop
The Wisher might be great vs Burn, but Caller can also be boarded in vs sweepers.dec like Rock or LandStill and so on.
The thing is keeping 3 mana up at all time is somehow slowing too much Survival Elves and can let Burn win even without Pyroclasm.
ESG+NO help vs Burn though... Turn 2 Progenitus (+ elves) race Burn most of the time.
I have a SB question by the way. Which is better in your opinion ? 4 Chokes, or a 2/2 split between Choke & Magus of the Moon in SB ?
Magus can hose Rockish builds AND Landstill//Bant//TA where Choke can only effect the latter. So the split seems better, but I have yet to test that IRL...
Cutting elves out of this list is not the way to go,and having survival does not slow the deck down at all. Its very common for my build to have up to 12 guys out on turn 4, including 4 or 5 lords in the goldfish match.
Team Unicorn: We're horny...get it?
I run 4 Chalice of the Void Sb, Chalice at One seems pretty good against burn
Absolute Law is arguably the best card you have against them (at least for the builds running white, otherwise Steely Resolve works fine) because if your guys are untouchable it's very easy to race them. Chalice works well too. Wellwisher is only good if you manage to not only get to activate it, but have enough creatures in play for it to be relevent, which I really doubt will happen.
After getting absolutely ass raped in the last round playing for top 8 in Eli's tournament yesterday by zoo, I am definetely putting in absolute laws.
Team Unicorn: We're horny...get it?
I've mentioned time and time again that Absolute Law is a necessity against those decks, and it sucks you lost contention to it. Still, good job on getting close enough I guess, would you care to write a report or anything on it? Any notes from the list or anything?
Yea, I'll have a report by tommorow.
Team Unicorn: We're horny...get it?
What's about cutting ESG?
Isn't he that good with the new lord?
I'm still a fan of dodging Daze, playing turn 1 2 1cc Elves, Survival or Priest.
What's up that you all cut ESG for Vanquisher?
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I cut ESG for the tournament this weekend and he wasn't missed at all. Take that birdman.
Team Unicorn: We're horny...get it?
What do you guys think of a singleton Wood Elves in the lists with both red and white.
In testing there have been those times where I needed the White mana for Mirror Entity, or the Mountain to turn on Anger to just win the game.
He's also no too bad on turn 2 off of a Llanowar Elves, as it just puts you a turn ahead.
With 8 fetches, you should never really have trouble getting the colored mana you need. And a 3 mana 1/1 is the last thing this deck needs.
Team Unicorn: We're horny...get it?
It is just a nice back up play, he has been super for me, 18 land is more than enough for me.
Also, is Entity better than Packmaster as a big dude?
The topic of entity has been discussed to death. Packmaster is a much better fattie, as he is able to single handedly win the game with his ability. Entity really isn't that good because he requires alot of mana and a bunch of other dudes to be effective.
Team Unicorn: We're horny...get it?
Entity is not needed. and i think birchlore rangers are better than wood elves if you want the entity in your deck.
Drakes claim to be dragons-until the dragons show up.
The dust can count only to 50.
Angels attacked them,............ with swords.
If you play entity, you rely on 8 fetches and your duals to get the mana you need. Diluting your creature base into even more mana guys is the worst thing to do.
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I cut ESG myself in favor of more permanent mana sources because I occasionally found myself stalling out on only 2-3 mana tops. Opting for other resources makes the deck a bit more consistent, albeit slightly slower.
As for swapping it for Vanquisher, I think it's a matter of running a power slot to compete with other aggro decks. Personally I run Tarmogoyf still over it because it's far better vs. control and on its own. After my recent bouts with the deck in tournament play I've found Tarmogoyf to be invaluable where often times Vanquisher wouldn't have made the cut even though I run 11 lords. However, Vanquisher is still acceptable, and certainly gets the nod in builds running Sylvan Messenger or the full complement of 12 lords.
@Wood Elves/Birchlore Ranger
The need to find the extra land isn't as important as having a terribly weak creature in play. The deck really wants to maximize its number of powerful creatures, and running additional ones on top of the already weak base of mana creatures is a liability.
Also, Birchlore Ranger is inferior because the issue isn't generating colored mana but rather finding Taiga to use with Anger.
@ Mirror Entity
To quote myself from another thread, although the discussion didn't concern Mirror Entity:
That slot is not only dedicated to be used to sink all the mana you can generate, but also be a great asset to fight through hate. Mirror Entity is at its best when you're already in a winning position, but Packmaster puts you in a winning position.
Here's the list I'm currently running and isn't likely to change until after I play my next large event (which is probably at Eli's August 22nd Power Tournament):
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Natural Order
1 Anger
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Progenitus
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Priest of Titania
2 Quirion Ranger
4 Imperious Perfect
4 Elvish Archdruid
3 Elvish Champion
1 Viridian Zealot/Harmonic Sliver
1 Wren's Run Packmaster
4 Windswepth Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Taiga
2 Savannah
8 Forest
Sideboard:
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Absolute Law
3 Krosan Grip
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Loaming Shaman
2 Tsunami/Choke
1 Masticore
1 Magus of the Moon
2 Open slots
The list is rather standard. After the curve raised a bit with the inclusion of Archdruid I decided to try 19 land and I really like it, however it's possible I could cut one for a 3rd Quirion Ranger. Otherwise everything else is pretty much normal here. The Viridian Zealot/Harmonic Sliver slot is really iffy to me. I've lost a handful of games because I was unable to cast Sliver or would've gotten buffs from lords to push for a win, but I've also lost games because I couldn't kill an Engineered Plague with Zealot. More testing will tell what I'll end up doing with that.
The sideboard is tailored to my own metagame and playstyle but for the most part is pretty basic. I'm currently debating on Tsunami over Choke because I've somehow run them into a Krosan Grip every time I've played one the last few weeks, but we'll see. Otherwise, I'm also testing Umezawa's Jitte in the sideboard to help with the increase of them from Merfolk and other aggro decks.
Last edited by Di; 07-30-2009 at 02:18 PM.
It seems like the deck relies on Survival a lot with this list. You have no other forms of Card Advantage. Don't you miss the fact that Tarmogoyf isn't pumped by your Lords?
I really don't understand why you drop Tribal Synergy for Goyf. Sylvan Messenger is such a good card, as it often draw 2-3, and Wren's Run Vanquisher eats or takes down every non-flying creature in Legacy, and gets pumped, and gets potential Forestwalking. To me it seems to make more sense to run Messenger. You argue that Tarmogoyf is better against control decks? Messenger gets more threats, and isn't completely halted by Swords to Plowshares, as most of its power will be spread about 2 or 3 different Elves. Also, if you factor in one Lord, you get more, or equal power out of a Messenger than you do out of a Goyf (about 6 or 7 power, plus Championing it with Packmaster puts the control deck in a very awkward position).
I fail to see how you could think there's a reliance on Survival when the deck still runs Natural Order, 11 lords, and Tarmogoyf. There's a high number of threats to consistently draw them and overwhelm the opponent.
Regarding Goyf over Vanquisher, it's there to provide help against control and act as a better beater on it's own. Even with lords it's very rare WRV will be bigger than Goyf, and individually it's much weaker. The format is filled with so many sweepers that the deck needs a power slot to keep the pressure, and Goyf is the best option there is for that role. I'm willing to give up some tribal synergy there in order to put more pressure on the opponent. Being able to completely avoid cards like Engineered Plague and Firespout, DD etc is a prime reason I run him.
I won't argue Messenger's worth against control; he's solid. But Goyf fulfills more of a role by fighting hate better, fighting aggro quicker, and being an efficient beater on its own. The deck has 30 non-elves, so it's very easy to see little off it, or potentially throw Natural Order on the bottom of the deck. To me, as an additional 4cc card I feel it's getting slow to handle everything we see. Against control hitting 4 mana after a WoG isn't easy, and against aggro it can be slow because Priests and Archdruids are killed on sight. It's an issue of playstyle to me; you're either willing to add CA but potentially slow the deck down or you're going to keep the curve lower and help against aggro faster. Personally I just take the Goyf because it's the best beater there is and is good in every matchup, and doesn't have the potential to get clogged in your hand if you're struggling to hit 4 mana.
Im testing at the moment a list without Messanger, but with Tarmogoyf AND Vanquisher.
// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)
// Lands
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
5 [B] Forest
1 [US] Gaea's Cradle
2 [B] Taiga
2 [B] Savannah
// Creatures
1 [JU] Anger
1 [LRW] Wren's Run Packmaster
1 [CNF] Progenitus
2 [VI] Quirion Ranger
4 [M10] Elvish Archdruid
3 [US] Priest of Titania
1 [MM] Squee, Goblin Nabob
4 [LRW] Imperious Perfect
4 [B] Llanowar Elves
3 [IA] Fyndhorn Elves
3 [IN] Elvish Champion
1 [SC] Wirewood Symbiote
1 [DS] Viridian Zealot / Wickerbough Elder
3 [EVG] Wren's Run Vanquisher
3 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
// Spells
3 [PT] Natural Order
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
// Sideboard
SB: 3 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst / Choke (depending on the meta)
SB: 1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 [FUT] Magus of the Moon
SB: 1 [US] Masticore
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [US] Absolute Law
SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [DIS] Loaming Shaman
I keep the 1 Symbiote in, to win the game with survival faster:
Play Packmaster, search Symbiote, untap Archdruid/Priest, bouncing a "useless" elf for another Archdruid/Priest.
Team aYb
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I like the Mirror Entity myself. It's happened a couple times where I've won with it (by going infinite) the turn before I would've died. With the Packmaster, it's not as often where you go "oops, I won".
I've also been testing the ESGless version because I've been trying to make my Landstill matchup better. The Vanquishers have been underwhelming for me - I'm only running Sylvan Messenger as a 1 of anyways, so I'll probably try the Tarmogoyf version next.
Humility is still a problem - for some reason whenever I play against Landstill, they always draw it! Anyone have any solutions for it game 1 other than just beating them down with 1/1's (which actually has succeeded for me before). It seems to me that we're just pretty much hosed if it lands in game 1.
Is it worth boarding in Grips against? I'm almost tempted to say no because Landstill typically only runs it as a 1 of anyways.
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