Hm... Its beginning to sound to me like the deck you are building in m your mind will be kinda dependent on Tombstalker.Originally Posted by Melwis
Well I was just asking questions, haven't decided how my build will look like yet. But I do think that deciding wether Suicide Black should focus on getting Tombstalker(s) out asap or not is a very important decision. I have a feeling that in a list running 4 Confidant the deck might become too suicidal with 4 Tombstalker + 4 Thoughtseize + fetchlands and I do not know if the risk is worth it, hence my questions regarding this decision.
If we come to the conclusion that running 4 Tombstalker is the right choice then there is ways to remove the suicidal part, the questions is if they are worth it. These are:
- Adding Sensei's Diving Top. How many?
- Running with more then 4 creature removal spells (Stinkweed Imp should count as this imo) to switch Thoughtseize for Duress.
- Removing Confidant. What would take it's place? Can cards like Sign in Blood, Night's Whisper or Phyrexian Arena take Confidants place as SB's card drawing engines?
- Upping the Jitte count. Doing this would also mean we need to find space for more creatures aswell. I think a minimum of 16 creatures should be included if we are to run 4 Jitte but even then I think 3 Jitte is a better count overall.
What do you think?
I would run either 4 sensei's divining top or 0 dark confidant.
The reason you shouldn't run Confidant has nothing to do with the fact that its too suicidal. The reason you shouldn't run Dark Confidant in SuiBlack is that its an awful card for an aggro deck.
I don't agree with this. Dark Confidant, while only a 2/1 beater, is awesome in this deck because he needs to be dealt with by your opponent. If he isn't, the card advantage you get just wins you the game most of the time. However, if you haven't been able to remove your opponents creature removal you can bet Confidant will soak it up which clears the way for your other beats. And the fact that he can swing for 2 does matter aswell.
For the records i'm now playtesting with the current list:
// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)
// Lands
4 [REW] Wasteland
10 [PT] Swamp (1)
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
// Creatures
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [TO] Nantuko Shade
4 [U] Hypnotic Specter
3 [FUT] Tombstalker
// Spells
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [A] Dark Ritual
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
3 [FNM] Smother
3 [BD] Diabolic Edict
4 [A] Sinkhole
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (2)
The funniest thing about it is that I now realise how broken Sinkhole is in this deck. Oviously it + Wasteland wins games on it's own but even if your opponent finds lands it keeps them from playing to many (or any) of their spells keeping your discard spells (Hypnotic included) useful not only in the first few turns.
As you can see the focus is not Tombstalker. With 3 in the list I feel more secure when I play Confidant and as you can see I also use 3 Sensei's Diving Top. I think 3 Tombstalkers is a good number even if you skip the suicidal part because it's not something you want in your starting hand (you really don't want to see 2) and I don't think this list can cast more then 1 reliably (even if this deck survives long enough to get enough cards in the graveyard to cast 2 I doubt you will win anyway because that will be close to lategame).
Jitte is not in the list anymore. It's just to slow. Besides, your creatures are good enough to end the game on their own. Basically, you disrupt your opponents hand and/or manabase and then play a beat and hope to win. If you get creatures in the way you have 6 removal spells to help you.
Questions regarding the list:
Diabolic Edict vs Smother? Should one become a 4-of and the other reduced to 2?
8 discard + 6 creature removal spells vs 10 discard + 4 creature removal? Thinking about adding 2 Duress because that first turn discard spell is important. Also the list could use a few more 1 CMC cards.
I ran Eva Green in a tournament on Saturday, and I found that sets of Hymn, Thoughtseize, and Hyppie were plenty. Conversely, I often found myself wanting to kill my opponent's dudes and not being able to. I'd keep the 8/6 ratio if I were you.
I also would cut something for the fourth Tombstalker, as I often found myself wanting for fat (and my deck had a set of Goyfs, which your list does not). Probably the third Top; I had two and I did fine.
Also, is there a reason you're not running free removal like Snuff Out and Contagion? It's nice being able to tap out on your turn to make dudes or Sinkhole or something, and still be able to react on your opponent's turn to whatever they're doing.
I really would like to get more 1 CMC cards in the list tough. What about Funeral Charm? It's a really versatile card, perhaps it would be better instead of Duress?
What do you think about Diabolic Edict vs Smother? Is a 3/3 split good or do you suggest one over the other?
Maybe. I'll keep it the count at 3 for now but if the problem arise i'll give it another thought.
I really don't like Snuff Out for not being able to target black creatures. Also it costs 4 life... Seriously, with 4 Confidant, 4 Tombstalker, 4 Thoughtseize, fetchlands AND Snuff Out you just have to kill yourself too often.
Contagion is not MD material (and I don't play with SB). I guess it's good versus Goblins for example but against most decks it won't be able to kill anything really.
2/1 beater is an oxymoron. When you want to win by turn 5 or so, as Suiblack is designed to do, you want threats on the board. Confidant draws you threats, but they're in your hand. He does nothing to increase the threats on the board-- in fact, he really decreases it, since you're giving up the chance to drop a beater on turn 2 in exchange for a card that won't deal nearly as much damage. At that point, you aren't dropping a real threat until turn 3.
He's only really going to give you crushing card advantage if the game goes long, and if that happens, you already lost.
How can a Confidant on second turn that stays not give you more threats on the board? When you're drawing 2 cards/turn you rarely miss a landdrop while at the same time you're also getting more threats or disruption. And while doing all this he can sometimes swing for 2. If the game draws a little longer while I have a Confidant out I bet i'm winning the game, not losing it.
What turn 2 beater are you talking about that gives more speed then Confidant? I would argue Nantuko Shade to be way slower because then you're arguments towards Confidant (which I think are wrong) add in. If you want Shade to be a threat you have to tap out meaning your threats stays in your hand.
@ Melwis:
Dark Confiant seems good when you first put it in, because all of a sudden you're drawing cards. I used it for a while, but it became lack-luster because it simply wasn't big enough. Sure, it draws you cards, but in a way, it also draws your opponents more cards. Compare its 2/1 body to a 5/5. With the 5/5, it'll take only four turns to kill the opponent while the Confidant will take ten. That's six cards and six more turns the opponent has to help them stabilize. Also, Confidant is a horrible top deck.
And don't say that you can drop more threats because that's a horrible idea with this deck. The idea is to drop a beater, disrupt, and win. If the opponent kills your guy, drop another one.
By the way, the replacement for Tarmogoyf in mono-black is Phyrexian Negator. That guy is insane. And you should be playing Snuff-Out because free removal is awesome.
Confidant robs you of tempo because he can hardly ever attack. In addition, he has to stick around for multiple turns to generate real card advantage. On turn two, you would much rather have beef that can take advantage of the disruption you played on turn 1.
There are plenty of turn 2 beaters that could be in Confidant's slot. Like Rotting Giant. Or, y'know, Tarmogoyf.
Your late game is very weak, and if you can't win early, you're pretty much screwed. Once the opponent stabilizes, you're pretty much screwed. Confidant gives them a chance to stabilize, since he's not actually a threat.
Hi all!
My version of the Suicide black, is more aggro.
// Lands
4 [REW] Wasteland
4 [PT] Swamp (1)
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 Bayou
// Creatures
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [TO] Nantuko Shade
4 Carnophage
4 Tarmogoyf
// Spells
4 [A] Dark Ritual
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [A] Sinkhole
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach
4 Sarcomancy
3 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of fire and Ice
SIDEBOARD
3 Krosan Grip
3 Choke\ Defensive Perimeter
3 Phyrexian Negator (against controls)
3 Enginered Plague
3 Relic of progenitus\ Leyline black
Comments, please!
Thx,
Lammina
Keep Walking, Voidwalker! - Use bugs with moderation -
Confidant as a beater (2/1) is not a real threat ofcourse but I say it one more time, his ability wins games. I don't understand how you help the opponent stabilize when you're drawing 2 cards/turn since this will give you more beats or disruption while ensuring landdrops.
@Baumeister: Why the hell would you never play additional creatures in this deck if you know they'll stick? If I get an early Confidant out I might start off playing disruption (or creature removal if my opponent manages to play an early threat) of the cards I get but when I don't have any left and I know my opponent is mana screwed or doesn't have anything dangerous in his hand, I sure as hell will play a second beater.
Also, you're comparing Tombstalker with Confidant and your argument is Stalker is 5/5, Confidant is 2/1, it's bad. I'm not saying Stalker is bad (i'm playing 3 if you didn't see my list) but comparing these cards purely based on P/T is pretty damn stupid. And unless you mean you're throwing out Stalkers turn 2 on a regular basis (you're not) I can tell you that an early Confidant that stays is what accelerates you into the 5/5 flyer.
The things I agree with is that:
Confidant is a bad (sometimes horrible) topdeck. But I don't think it justifies cutting him.
Snuff Out might be worth it but since I believe that a card that costs 4 life would be too much in my current list i'm leaving it for now. Besides, since i'm not using a sideboard, Snuff Out sucks when i'm facing black.
Phyrexian Negator is good, but a bit situational. Sometimes you'll be able to win asap thanks to Negator but there will be moments where it has no other choice but to stand there.
@Roman Candle: Goyf is played in Eva Green not in SB. Yes i'm aware that Eva Green might be better but since we're discussing SB here you can't compare him to Confidant.
Rotting Giant? He can beat for 1 more, doesn't die to Mogg Fanatic which is being dismissed anyway and keeps you from playing Tombstalker. I'm not impressed.
An early Confidant can make SB win longer games then you expect. If you really think Confidant helps an opponent to stabilize you're wrong. Unless maybe if you go by "never play more then 1 beater".
@ Melwis:
You don't play additional creatures because you shouldn't have to. The plan is to land some fat and make your opponent deal with it. Nantuko Shade, Tombstalker, and Phyrexian Negator are extremely large creatures that force the opponent to find an answer instead of sticking to their game plan.
Arguments against Dark Confidant:
It has a tiny ass
It sucks at attacking
You don't even WANT to attack with it
It's oxymoronic to the deck's goals
Arguments for Dark Confidant:
It draws you cards
It must be answered
The game should never go long enough where you would want an active Confidant on the board. Furthermore, in order to make Confidant useful, you have to slow the deck down, turning it into Deadguy Ale.
These are starting hands that usually happen with this deck:
T1: Swamp, Thoughtseize; T2: Swamp, Nantuko Shade
T1: Swamp, Dark Ritual, Hypnotic Specter
T1: Swamp, Dark Ritual, Thoughtseize, Hymn to Tourach
T1: Bloodstained Mire into Swamp, Thoughtseize; T2: Swamp, Dark Ritual, Tombstalker
When would I ever want to play a Dark Confidant in any of that? The card is good, but not in this deck. When you play Dark Confidant, you are attempting to prolong the game so that you will benefit from the card advantage it provides. That's not what this deck is trying to do. Disrupt, lay some fat, and beat the shit out of your opponent.
Confidant is weak, backwards to the deck's goal, and taking up spots for other, bigger, better creatures.
Confidant is a creature that the opponent has to find an anwser too aswell. If Confidant stays you will likely be able to disrupt your opponents even more, making it even tougher for them. If you're in that position (thanks to Confidant), there is no reason not to play another beater to put your opponent on a faster clock.
There really isn't alot of creature removal cards that can't deal with any of our other creatures but Confidant. Since Mogg Fanatic is being dismissed x/1's can feel alot more safe. Fire/Ice can kill both Specter and Shade (if you're tapped out), so can every single burn spell.
Aslong as your opponents board is free of creatures Confidant swings for 2 which shouldn't be dismissed. Still, this is not the main reason i'm defending him.
Why?
The goals deck is to disrupt your opponent and play creatures which has to be answered. How does Confidant hinder that goal?
Fixed.
What do you mean "you have to slow the deck down"? The only cards I run because I play with Confidant is 3 SDT's but honestly it deserves those slots. Reducing the lifeloss of Confidant, producing serious card quality with fetchlands and being 1 CMC I think that's good enough reasons.
First hand: I'd much rather replace Confidant with Shade in that spot. Shade is not a very good turn 2 play. One Thoughtseize is not enough to disrupt your opponent so your mana will be used to keep playing more spells meaning Shade will be a 2/1 (possibly a 3/2) for the next two-four turns.
Second hand: There is a possibility that Specter will just be removed when you do this. It's a strong play though, but I prefer to play Thoughtseize/Sinkhole/Hymn the first few turns and then follow up with Specter.
Third hand: This does not happen consistently but when it does you can be pretty sure your next creature will stay and probably win the game for you, wether it's Shade/Stalker/Specter/Negator or Confidant.
Fourth hand: This is not something the deck pulls of consistently. Even though, if I have more disruption in my hand for turn 2 in this case I would probably use it and play Stalker turn 3 to increase the chance of it staying.
Seriously, if Confidant stays for just one turn he still might have 2-1'ed your opponent (using something to remove him with) and probably gave you something useful that will help. If Confidant stays for more then one turn your opponent is in trouble. What i'm trying to say is that Confidant doesn't need more rounds then any of your other creatures to simply win the game for you.
Right, i'm still waiting for something better then Rotting Giant...
I've recently had some pretty good success with my deck. Now, it's actually Red Death but the red splash is so minor that I decided that I couldn't be arsed necroing the real Red Death thread as my deck's just basically Suicide Black with Lightning Bolts.
I noticed that a lot of the lists here are a lot more controllish than mine and most Eva Green players' which I find odd as these decks are just Suicide Black decks with very, very minor color splashes. Imho Suicide Black decks (no matter what splash, if any) should be all about aggression and disruption. Too much control, card filtering and/or card drawing just seem to slow down and dillute the deck.
Here's my list. A few things might look odd but I got my reasons. ;-)
MAIN: 60
Creatures: 15
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Ashenmoor Gouger
3 Tombstalker
Instants: 14
4 Snuff Out
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Dark Ritual
2 Funeral Charm
Sorceries: 10
4 Sinkhole
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize
Lands: 21
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Badlands
4 Wasteland
9 Swamp
SIDEBOARD: 15
4 Engineered Plague
3 Leyline of the Void
3 Smash to Smithereens
3 Dystopia
2 Duress
Things you'll probably point out: Ashenmoor Gouger, Funeral Charm, # of Thoughtseizes and fetchlands.
I love Phyrexian Negator. He's easily in my top3 of favourite creatures because of his immense power, easy mana cost and the awesome drawing. I mean, he looks like an Alien! But his drawback is just ball busting. Zoo and sligh'ish decks and decks that generally run a lot of creatures are really popular in my meta: bad news for the Negator. Ashenmoor Gouger is the closest I can find. He's a solid beatstick but his "Cannot block" "ability" is really, really annoying, hehe. Oh well.
I'd thought about trying out Shambling Remains instead but I wasn't sold on that idea as Dark Ritualling out threats on turn one can be really effective which isn't possible with the Remains. It's a slow creature, doesn't have synergy with Tombstalker and semi-opens me to graveyard hate.
I only own two Thoughtseizes which means I have to look for alternatives for the last two copies. For a long time these spots were held by Duress but I felt like trying out Funeral Charm as I really liked the card back when I fooled around with Pox. Now, I've only played with them a couple of times but they've been sweet.
It's a very, very flexible card to the point where it's rarely dead. It can kill off annoying weenies (Lackey, Confidant, mana producing creatures, Mother of Runes, Lavamancer etc.). It can also help your aggressive gameplan by making creatures go the distance by boosting for the last few points of damage - or simply make a creature unblockable. The discard part of the card is obviously mostly weaker than Duress' effect and I don't like it as my turn one play. However it feels great to discard a hellbent opponents newly drawn card at the end of his draw step. I won a game that way by discarding his topdecked Tombstalker. ;-)
So far I like it better than Duress.
I only own four Bloodstained Mires. No Polluted Deltas. :-( If I had them I'd probably run the 4th Tombstalker.
The last card that I'd want to point out is Dystopia. This card's just a house. It rarely ever goes down without granting you card advantage as well as keeping people from casting more creatures while it's active. Oh, and it also takes care of annoying cards that are otherwise more or less impossible for a monoblack/red deck to handle, like Humility, Moat and the green and white planeswalkers. Try it out. You won't regret it.
I don't know about you, but with most of the good removal being White, I would consider Dross Harvester and, as alternatives to SDT and Bob, Cruel Bargain and Sign In Blood as your draw. Something to look into, at least.
I can see a 2 for 1 being pretty rare with Confidant, because if the opponent really felt a dire need to kill it, they would do it the turn it came down, or else they would leave it there. And since you're never going to get to swing with Confidant, it shouldn't count for a card in your 2-1 scenario if the opponent doesn't waste a card to kill it.
Also, playing Sensei's Divining Top is terrible in an aggro deck. You should be dropping threats and disruption with that mana. Stop trying to be good in the long game and focus on what the deck is good at.
But you know something? I've changed my mind on Confidant and SDT. You might as well play them, because trying to make the deck good will make it a shitty Eva Green/Team America. Playing with bad cards at least gives you justification for playing Sui-Black.
Ok I agree, my scenario was a bit flawed. Still, sometimes your opponent doesn't have something to remove Confidant with (either because he/she hasn't drawn it or because we've discarded it) and if Confidant stays he'll still generate awesome cardadvantage and perhaps will soak up a creature removal spell later on. Then your opponent will be at a serious disadvantage and you will likely have plenty of new threats to dish out (thanks to Confidants drawing).
I agree that it might be questionable to play SDT but there are solid reason why you should:
1. It has a CMC of 1 which the deck lack, playing a first turn SDT can hardly be negative for the deck if you can't play anything else.
2. Sometimes SB will have stripped it's opponents of most of their cards but might also have only a few "useless" cards left aswell. When these scenarios occur and topdecks become important, SDT can be gamebreaking.
3. Reducing the lifeloss of Confidant. With SDT and Confidant out, Confidant's drawback is more or less nullified.
4. Generates awesome card quality with fetchlands.
I think neither of us is going to convince the other so there's no point in arguing any further, atleast not regarding Confidant.
Perhaps Eva Green and Team America is strictly better decks then Suicide Black but i'm not sure and I won't give up SB just yet because I think it has potential.
@ Melwis:
You say that Nantuko Shade is mana hungry, yet you include Sensei's Divining Top in your deck. This is what's called a contradictory statement. After you land Shade, you shouldn't need to play much else until the opponent answers it. This is why Snuff Out is an amazing card for this deck. It's FREE REMOVAL.
Confidant absolutely does slow down the deck. You even said yourself that you added three Sensei's Divining Top to compensate for the life loss. Top is a control card that gets better as the game goes longer. Or you could just drop Confidant along with Top and free up seven spots in your deck.
This is the creature base that I run:
4x Nantuko Shade
4x Hypnotic Specter
4x Phyrexian Negator
4x Tombstalker
There is no reason to run any less than four of any of those creatures. Shade is a house, it absolutely is. I never use all of my mana after I drop him because there is no need to land another threat. He wins the game by himself, something that Confidant cannot do.
Phyrexian Negator has won me so many games that I don't care if he screws me over once in a while. I can literally count on one hand how many times he's put me into a position from where I can't recover. He is amazing, and you should run him. If you say he's too dangerous, then play a different deck.
By the way, Confidant has to stick around for two turns after you land him to gain card advantage. The first turn after he's in play is just card advantage. With any other creature in the deck, those two turns equals about 10 damage.
And don't fix my posts to false statements just because you think you're right. There are more people in this thread who have tested and dismissed Confidant for the very reasons you seem apt to dismiss.
Also, I land Tombstalker on turn two about every three or four games. It comes down turn three more often than that (and with protection). It must be all of those Tops you're running that prevent you from landing game-shattering plays.
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