Natural Order Rock

[kkoie]

If SDT is included purely to speed up the digging for NO, then I wonder if you should increase the number of fetches to 8, so that you will have more shuffling effects.

Also, have you considered running choke in the sideboard?

[MTG-Fan]

Most recent testing list:

// Lands
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [A] Bayou
2 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
2 [MM] Swamp (3)
4 [MM] Forest (1)
3 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [FD] Eternal Witness
4 [MI] Wall of Roots
1 [CFX] Progenitus
3 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [FNM] Elves of Deep Shadow

// Spells
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [VI] Natural Order
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
2 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse
3 [FNM] Smother

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [ALA] Empyrial Archangel
SB: 4 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 4 [AP] Pernicious Deed


Putting Wastelands in has improved alot of matchups. Elves of Deep Shadow are better than Birds because they can carry a Jitte.

I think I've only lost like 2-3 matches out of 15+ that I've played the past 2 days on MWS. One was to Goblins, because my BoP couldn't do damage with the Jitte I had boarded in, so that's why I subbed it out for the Elves.

Also, Wall of Roots is absolutely amazing vs. the Legacy metagame. Blocks Mongoose all day long, blocks Goyf early in the game, blocks Mutas and Factories all day long, and then accelerates all of your spells to boot, not to mention being sacrificial fodder for NO when you've depleted its mana source. Just incredible.

[scrumdogg]

I would probably run Wall of Blossoms over Wall of Roots for better synergy with sacrifice effects/recursion.

Reminds me of Secret Force.

Wall of Roots both blocks (see also slows the opponent & dodges damage based removal) and accelerates your mana. I lost a game 3 Sunday to Turn 2 Wall of Roots, Turn 3 Natural Order -> Progenitus. And in the other two games, the turns of damage that Wall shrugged off without dying made the difference in one of them.

[BreathWeapon]

Blue for Intuition, considered that?

[lavafrogg]

Can't birds with a jitte now attack for counters?

[KrzyMoose]

Can't birds with a jitte now attack for counters?

No. It's always been that way.

If you think it changed with M10...Did you actually read the changes?

[lavafrogg]

I know how it worked, I've read the changes, I wasn't confused in the slightest or think that I read that birds now did "0" combat damage. That's why I didn't ask the question.

[baghdadbob]

I really like the idea of running Progenitals combo. I feel that the strongest suit for it would be in U/W/G giving you mana accel and plenty of control. I also like the black splash as well but prefer white for chant effects/swords/etc... Anywho this what my list would look like if I was running this.

Progenitals
By: Baghdad Bob

Combo
4x Natural Order
1x Progenitals

Draw
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder

Accel
4x Noble Heirarch

Control
4x Swords to Man Bear Pig
3x Wrath of God
4x Force of Bill
4x Daze
4x Mana Leak
4x Orim's Chant

Thoughts...
Goyf?
Alt win cons?
Mystical tutors to search for Natural Order?

I'm not positive what I would run s/b. I think I might run more threats...
All in all I want the deck to work but I feel that rock is not the way to go. Instead I believe I would play it in a control suite.

[beastman]

Olny 4 cretures 4 NO is teh failez!

[baghdadbob]

1 Progenitus seems like good game to me...

[Honoluluicecaps]

You have to sac a creature to use Natural Order and you're only running 4 creatures other than Progenitus. That seems suboptimal to say the least

[Droxis]

I've been trying to build this deck and this is what I got:

// Lands
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [R] Savannah
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
1 [CST] Swamp (1)
2 [IN] Forest (3)
2 [US] Plains (4)
4 [U] Bayou
3 [B] Scrubland

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [RAV] Loxodon Hierarch
3 [LRW] Doran, the Siege Tower
2 [FD] Eternal Witness
1 [CFX] Progenitus
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage

// Spells
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares
4 [AP] Pernicious Deed
4 [AP] Vindicate
3 [VI] Natural Order
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize

In the event I find leaning towards easier/faster NO-genitus instead of it just being tagged onto the AggroRock, I'll remove a few things to make sure it goes out easier. This:

// Lands
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [R] Savannah
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
1 [CST] Swamp (1)
2 [IN] Forest (3)
2 [US] Plains (4)
4 [U] Bayou
3 [B] Scrubland

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [RAV] Loxodon Hierarch
3 [LRW] Doran, the Siege Tower
2 [FD] Eternal Witness
1 [CFX] Progenitus
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [EVG] Llanowar Elves

// Spells
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
4 [AP] Vindicate
4 [VI] Natural Order

edit: Or I can go with both seize and elves


// Lands
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [R] Savannah
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
1 [CST] Swamp (1)
2 [IN] Forest (3)
2 [US] Plains (4)
4 [U] Bayou
3 [B] Scrubland

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [RAV] Loxodon Hierarch
2 [LRW] Doran, the Siege Tower
1 [CFX] Progenitus
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [EVG] Llanowar Elves

// Spells
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
4 [AP] Vindicate
4 [VI] Natural Order
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize

I figure that NO-genitus is really good, but AggroRock has enough facerolling beaters and plenty of removal to function well on it's own with NO-genitus stealing wins when it does come down. I'm just unsure of whether or not I like thoughtseize or mana elves more. I'm thinking seize (with duress on the side) will work better in a control environment, while mana elves better in an aggro environment.

Thoughts?

[baghdadbob]

Is polymorph better then natural order?

[morgan_coke]

Droxis,

Those are some of the beat NO lists I've ever seen. Only quibbles I have with them are pretty minor. The manabase could probably lose a few duals for some Nantuko Monasteries and/or Wastelands. You could also use some kind of draw or library manipulation. Top, Whisper, and Harmonize seem like your best bets there, though I admit I have no idea what you should cut for them.

Bob,

no, it's not.

[Droxis]

Droxis,

Those are some of the beat NO lists I've ever seen. Only quibbles I have with them are pretty minor. The manabase could probably lose a few duals for some Nantuko Monasteries and/or Wastelands. You could also use some kind of draw or library manipulation. Top, Whisper, and Harmonize seem like your best bets there, though I admit I have no idea what you should cut for them.

Getting the right colored mana is already a trial, I don't know if adding wastelands/monasteries is going to help with that. I do agree it's a bit heavy on the non-basics, but that comes with the three color territory and the best method I got to dealing with that is some mana elves and basics.

As far as deck manipulation goes I really don't know what I'd take out. I always likened deck manipulation for The Rock and not so much Aggrorock, since I want everything I play to shift power around.

Is polymorph better then natural order?

Nah. It's a completely different card, honestly. Unlike Natural Order, Polymorph puts into play the first creature you reveal. Since you need creatures for it to work, it's most likely going to get snagged on something that is not a Progenitus. Plus, it's blue, which means it doesn't usually benefit from the acceleration of green (in my case, elves). What it -does- have going for it is that you can do it to an enemy creature, in hopes the one they reveal and put into play is less of a threat.

Order cuts through all that crap by nuking one of your green creatures and spitting Progenitus out.

[MTG-Fan]

I think he was trolling when he suggested Polymorph, but if it isn't obvious to everyone already, it's an abysmal alternative to NO that should never see play anywhere.

Not only for the reasons listed above, but most importantly because it needs to target a creature, and that creature can be StP'd/Bolted in response to the Polymorph, unlike NO which lets you sacrifice the creature.

[sauce]

Have you tested splashing white for Vindicate and StP?

I ran a B/g/w Rock deck with the Progenitus combo with success at a local tournament last weekend. It was heavily based off of this list.

Beat Dragon Stompy, Belcher, and almost beat CounterTop, but time ran out.

that list is amazing.

[MMogg]

After reading this thread, I was wondering if anyone around here has considered making UG natural order? I've been playing around with trying to come up with a deck list, but you'll have to forgive me, I've been away from Magic for about 6 years, so I'm a bit reluctant to post it, not to mention this is a rock thread not a UG thread. Anyway, has anyone tried?

[AngryTroll]

// Lands
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [R] Savannah
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
1 [CST] Swamp (1)
2 [IN] Forest (3)
2 [US] Plains (4)
4 [U] Bayou
3 [B] Scrubland

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [RAV] Loxodon Hierarch
2 [LRW] Doran, the Siege Tower
1 [CFX] Progenitus
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [EVG] Llanowar Elves

// Spells
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
4 [AP] Vindicate
4 [VI] Natural Order
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize

I like this list a lot. Doran, Goyf, and Pridemage are all pretty solid without help; Natural Order is a great backup plan. The only thing I'd do to this list is add Eternal Witness, switch Heirarch for Kitchen Finks, and add some Cabal Therapies. Although Finks aren't as good with Doran, the better synergy with Natural Order and Cabal Therapy is probably worth it. It also costs three, slightly lowering your curve.

-3 Loxodon Heirarch
+3 Kitchen Finks

I'd be tempted to go -4 Elf, -1 Vindicate, -1 land to add +2 Witness, +4 Therapy. The dissynergy between Elves and Deed is justification for cutting them, I guess, but I like having them in there.


That'd leave:
// Lands
4 Windswept Heath
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Savannah
4 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Swamp
2 Forest
2 Plains
1 Volrath's Stronghold

// Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Quasali Pridemage
3 Kitchen Finks
2 Eternal Witness
2 Doran, the Siege Tower
1 Progenitus

// Spells
4 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Vindicate
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Natural Order

That list could still use a third Eternal Witness, and three or four Divining Tops, but I like the look of it.

[P.S.]

This is the newest, active Natural Order thread so I guess I'll post this here.

I really like the idea of Natural Order sacrificing Dryad Arbor (found via Crop Rotation) to go get Progenitus. I also really like having a maindeck Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale that I can "tutor" for (via C.R.) to slow down decks like Zoo, Goblins and Merfolk.

...that's about as far as I have made it, sans Chalice of the Void which I want to mainboard because it's currently a great metagame card.

There's a lot of ways to take this deck, I feel and I do like the idea of a Rockish build which can utilize Pernicious Deed. A toolbox deck, so to speak, really fits my playstyle. Granted I would like to play as few of creatures as possible, really just Progenitus, leaving my opponent with, hopefully, a lot of dead cards. At least in game one.

@MMogg: I have thought about this as well. Mainly just because so many blue cards (Force of Will, Daze, Stifle, even Misdirection) are really good right now. Granted Natural Order takes two green to cast and I really don't want to be really weak against Wastelands.