Natural Order + Progenitus tendency

[Tinefol]

I really don't like the general direction we are sliding into. Ever since the release of Conflux NO + Progenitus are more and more often thrown into random decks containing green creatures (which is a solid chunk of the field), and I have a strong feeling we are experiencing the same thing that happened to Vintage: throw Tinker + Colossus (or the more recent Inkwell Leviathan) into your random deck with blue and randomly enjoy your 3 mana fattie. Except that it's less random with 4 NO, and Progenitus is harder to deal with than Colossus.

I do understand that NO costs 2GG, making it harder to cast than Tinker, that most Vintages decks already contain both blue and artifacts, while in Legacy running green and green creatures isn't mandatory. I don't even think that NO+Progenitus is that strong, I just don't like how easily (though it has its restrictions on deckbuilding, there is no 'standalone' Order combo deck) that's thrown into bunch of decks, just because its a 'cool' and powerful trick. NO doesn't really care about or improve the general focus of the deck, you just randomly bring Progenitus in and bash.

And I don't even know what to propose there, just sharing my thoughts :/

[SilverGreen]

It's just a good and effective combination of cards, with many ways to be responded to, by a plethora of diferent decks. I personally see it as a much more fair "combo" than Top+CB (or first-turn-Lackey in the past), and even this one isn't exactly the end of the world nowadays.

[eq.firemind]

I just don't like how easily (though it has its restrictions on deckbuilding, there is no 'standalone' Order combo deck) that's thrown into bunch of decks, just because its a 'cool' and powerful trick. NO doesn't really care about or improve the general focus of the deck, you just randomly bring Progenitus in and bash.

Agreed.
I really don't like the "Oops, I win" cards. Each new "OOPS" makes Force of Will better and better and that's clearly not the thing format needs.

[Tinefol]

It's just a good and effective combination of cards, with many ways to be responded to, by a plethora of diferent decks. I personally see it as a much more fair "combo" than Top+CB (or first-turn-Lackey in the past), and even this one isn't exactly the end of the world nowadays.

While Top+CB and/or Lackey may be more powerful than Natural Order, they require a whole deck to be built around it. They work for the focus of the deck. Not much of a case with Natural Order, even though it certainly puts some restrain on deck construction. That's why Icompare it to Vintage's use of Tinker in that way.
Another analogy - painter/stone in a much less degree is the same thing.

[JeroenC]

Meh. Decks don't really have to be "built around" CBTop. Any deck with a "regular" curve that can make UU can play CBTop if they want.
And any deck with green creatures that can make 2GG can play NOGenitus if they want.

[MMogg]

While Top+CB and/or Lackey may be more powerful than Natural Order, they require a whole deck to be built around it. They work for the focus of the deck. Not much of a case with Natural Order, even though it certainly puts some restrain on deck construction. That's why Icompare it to Vintage's use of Tinker in that way.
Another analogy - painter/stone in a much less degree is the same thing.

Think of NO as a kind of tutor. Don't you feel you may be a little too ideological in this instance, thinking about what a Magic deck ought to be as opposed to what it is? As far as I see it, Magic has always been about breaking cards and NO is no different.

[FoolofaTook]

There's no way that Natural Order + Progenitus is breaking the Legacy metagame. The cost of playing NO makes it hard to get off against some decks and the fact that you have to sacrifice a green creature makes it a potential 2 for 1 against counter magic and even then there are ways to deal with Progenitus after he lands.

If the meta was awash in commonly played green creatures that weren't really effective on their own then there might be a problem, but ditching a mongoose or a goyf or even a pridemage without knowing that your big fatty was going to land sounds like a negative play in a lot of situations.

As to the emphasis that NO + Progenitus places on counter magic, really it doesn't. The decks that play the combo that don't have counter magic are going to be a bye for storm combo and the decks that do have counter magic already have similar (better) options available, like Stiflenought.

[MTG-Fan]

NO->Progenitus is just really, really good. Before the printing of Progenitus, at least the creatures you brought into play could be StP'd and such, but right now, Progenitus makes it all too easy to just win at the cost of 4 mana.

And it is, honestly, ridiculously easy to beat Force of Will in such a deck if you run lots of discard via Cabal Therapy and Thoughtseize.. I literally have never lost a match to a blue deck of any kind with my Natural Order Rock deck.

And it is pretty boring after the novelty wears off. It's just as if they printed this card:

Progenital Endowment 2GG
Enchantment

Progenital Endowment has shroud.
When Progenital Endowment comes into play, put 2 counters on it. During your attack phase, remove a counter from Progenital Endowment. When you remove the last counter, you win the game.


If you think about NO this way, it's pretty clear how boring and borderline broken it is.

I would recommend either banning Progenitus, or banning NO. They both cannot be in the format. Before the printing of Progenitus, NO was completely fair.

[rsaunder]

I have lost one game, ever, to progenitus. It's a threat, yes, but it's so resource intensive and easy to get around that it's really a non-issue.

[Koby]

You mean you don't pack Perish/Hibernation and just rape green decks?

Quit complaining you wussy!

[AngryTroll]

If you think about NO this way, it's pretty clear how boring and borderline broken it is.

I would recommend either banning Progenitus, or banning NO. They both cannot be in the format. Before the printing of Progenitus, NO was completely fair.

Natural Order is still pretty fair. The double green in the casting cost and needing to have a green creature in play forces you to play it in a pretty specific deck, unlike Tinker.

There are a lot of cards that deal with Progenitus, spread across most colors. Blue obviously has countermagic. White has Swords to Plowshares for the creature you want to sacrifice to it, Wrath, Mout, Humility, Wing Shards, and about a million other things it can do. Black has Perish, Damnation, and board sweepers. Other Green decks have a harder time, but what kind of Green deck can't either go grab its own Progenitus, or splash a color that can help? Finally, red has sweepers for most of the common green creatures that sac to NO.

Overall, I think it's a pretty fair combo. Oath of Druids, on the other hand, would be pretty disgusting. And the only green deck to not rum Tarmogoyf.

[MTG-Fan]

I have lost one game, ever, to progenitus. It's a threat, yes, but it's so resource intensive and easy to get around that it's really a non-issue.

Turn 1, Cabal Therapy/Thoughtseize
Turn 2, Wall of Roots
Turn 3, NO

How is that easy to deal with, again?

Or conversely, you put it into a CounterTop shell as a mid/late-game "oops, i win" card. Either way, it's ridiculously easy to win the game with this card.

[MTG-Fan]

Natural Order is still pretty fair. The double green in the casting cost and needing to have a green creature in play forces you to play it in a pretty specific deck, unlike Tinker.

Double-green is really not a problem. In Rock builds, you run mana acceleration dudes like Wall of Roots / BoP and Bayous. In CounterTop builds, you run Tropical Islands and Tarmogoyfs/Mongoose. Etc.

There are a lot of cards that deal with Progenitus, spread across most colors. Blue obviously has countermagic. White has Swords to Plowshares for the creature you want to sacrifice to it, Wrath, Mout, Humility, Wing Shards, and about a million other things it can do. Black has Perish, Damnation, and board sweepers. Other Green decks have a harder time, but what kind of Green deck can't either go grab its own Progenitus, or splash a color that can help? Finally, red has sweepers for most of the common green creatures that sac to NO.

1. Countermagic is almost a non-issue if you run discard, or Shusher, or whatever.

2. Swords to Plowshares the creature you're saccing?! Do you realize that doesn't work, right? Saccing the creature is part of the cost of casting the spell, so unless you go about StPing every green creature they have in play before they can cast NO, you won't stop it. STP is 100% useless vs. NO.

3. Who runs Perish and Damnation? No one. Wrath, Humility, and Moat are decent options, but right now you only see those cards in Landstill or MWC. And of course, discard can deal with that very easily.

[SilverGreen]

Who runs Perish and Damnation? No one.

You'll play them, and me, and everyone else, if these cards become relevant to the metagame at some point, just the same way every other card will. Legacy is all about break stuff all the time.

Oh, and I ran three copies of Perish as techie SB cards in an event two weeks ago, and they served me in many games and very well, thanks. It has its merits, and I really think it deserves be took into account now, as a 1-3 SB card at least.

[TrialByFire]

I've never lost a game to Progenitus. I have lost many to Tinker. Not even close to the same power level.

Its like when Dreadnought was first reverted back to original functionality; everyone is putting it into everything. Except Dreadnought was much easier to cast.

[rsaunder]

Turn 1, Cabal Therapy/Thoughtseize
Turn 2, Wall of Roots
Turn 3, NO

How is that easy to deal with, again?

Or conversely, you put it into a CounterTop shell as a mid/late-game "oops, i win" card. Either way, it's ridiculously easy to win the game with this card.

Well, you can give perfect scenarios all day and it doesn't make the combo any better. A daze, counterspell, or force beats that and sets them back 2 turns and a card.

Know what else beats it?

Turn 1: Play 9 spells and tendrils of agony Via AdN. Oh sh*t!

[Jak]

Turn 1, Thoughtseize/Cabal Therapy, Chome Mox, Didgeridoo
Turn 2, Anaba Grunt
Turn 3, Labyrinth Minotaur

How is that easy to deal with, again?

Or conversely, you put it into a CounterTop shell as a mid/late-game "oops, i win" card. Either way, it's ridiculously easy to win the game with this card.

Didgeridoo is the problem not this green spell that costs 4.

[TeenieBopper]

Turn 1, Thoughtseize/Cabal Therapy, Chome Mox, Didgeridoo
Turn 2, Anaba Grunt
Turn 3, Labyrinth Minotaur

How is that easy to deal with, again?

Or conversely, you put it into a CounterTop shell as a mid/late-game "oops, i win" card. Either way, it's ridiculously easy to win the game with this card.

Didgeridoo is the problem not this green spell that costs 4.

I was totally going to troll this thread, but I can't possibly live up to this. Well played, good sir.

[herbig]

I was totally going to troll this thread, but I can't possibly live up to this. Well played, good sir.

I respectfully disagree. A picture of a cat saying something funny would have been better. E for effort though.

[AngryTroll]

2. Swords to Plowshares the creature you're saccing?! Do you realize that doesn't work, right? Saccing the creature is part of the cost of casting the spell, so unless you go about StPing every green creature they have in play before they can cast NO, you won't stop it. STP is 100% useless vs. NO.

3. Who runs Perish and Damnation? No one. Wrath, Humility, and Moat are decent options, but right now you only see those cards in Landstill or MWC. And of course, discard can deal with that very easily.

Swords depends on the build. If it's in a Thresh engine, it's possible if they don't run many green creatures. I was thinking of a tournament report I saw today where the guy cast NO, sacced a creature, then had his Shusher Plowed. He activated it, then NO was countered.

Perish should see more play. It nails Goyf, Mongoose, and randomly wrecks Elves! and Survival, and costs three to get around Balance. Tariff's anothe option. Even Meekstone works, although it still lets Progenitus hit you for ten. Diabolic Edict and friends will work, when paired with more removal.

The discard package is pretty solid, but so is the countermagic package most blue decks are packing. Progenitus can run discard and the combo, and Thresh can run countermagic and relevant removal.

The Natural Order / Progenitus combo reminds me a little of Worldgorger Dragon combo. Sure, it's game winning, but every color has access to ways to stop it. Sure, some blue, white, and black have better answers than red and green, but even red and green have some choices.

Natural Order isn't nearly as broken as Tinker. It's a solid card, and a solid strategy, but it is a lot "more fair" than Tinker.