I have a question: why is no one playing the black splash version anymore? It had boom for a small period and after it ended for everyone.
Bob was quite good and black gave interesting SB options..
I think its cause of the tribal/aggro bullshitdecks which are kinda to agressive for decks with confidants etc. At least the UGW or UGR lists are much more consitand than the black build even on the sideboard.Originally Posted by pippo84
If u play black anyway i would play team america or eva green but both don't need to run the stifle/nought combo at all :)
Yeah, probably you are right. it's full of merfolk these days.
Btw I play UGR, triesd the UGW, but i don't know why but with red it just seems better.. I still have to try Lightning Bolts in the SB as I see many are doing..
Really? Sower is better than Control Magic, because it ends the game faster (thereby reducing the likelihood that your opponent will draw an answer).
Threads is also better than Control Magic.
Sower is better than both Threads and Control Magic, but the reason is not because it ends the game quicker, it is because Sower doesn't die to the same hate that is already coming in for dreadnought, IE Grip, Ancient Grudge, etc, etc.
Team Hammafist
Well, to be fair, Grudge can't destroy Control Magic, but it sounds like we're on the same page. Maybe you mean Shackles.
Grip and Pridemage will make appearances game 2, if not game 1, in enough matchups that Control Magic will not always be safer than Sower. The argument that artifact/enchantment removal spells will be used up on CB/Top and Nought isn't really relevant, since the same can be said of creature removal on Goyf and Nought.
If Sower didn't give me a 2/2 flying body, then obviously, I'd play Threads.
Anyway, I'd like to change the topic. Has anyone else played with Divert? It's more well-rounded than Hydroblast. It's fantastic against Eva Green/The Rock/TES as well as Zoo/Sligh/Burn.
Before we leave this topic entirely, it should be pointed out that Threads cant take Tombstalker or Thoctar, or Hippies, or a bunch of other creatures. Yes, costing one less is really cool, and it still hits the majority of the format. The inability to hit tombstalker is relevant, and it's not like we haven't been playing Control magic effects at that casting cost this entire time (Sower).
Bolts cant usually kill Dreadnoughts or Goyfs, and fire can't really ever kill either. All of Canadian thresh's removal Can't realistically target Goyf, and Zoo only gets to hit it with Swords/Path. The removal in question, which is often bolts, has one target, Sower.The argument that artifact/enchantment removal spells will be used up on CB/Top and Nought isn't really relevant, since the same can be said of creature removal on Goyf and Nought.
I've tried Divert, and found that the inability to shoot Countryside Crusher/Goblin Lackey/Woolly Thoctar/Random-ass Red dudes makes it feel lacking. It is occasionally amazing, but less stable than BEB.
So, I'm having problems with my sideboard.
Red is just in the SB as for now..
1 Pithing Needle
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
3 Krosan Grip
And then??
I would like 2 Berserk because it's really strong and is not an overkill. But, then??
I would also like Lightning Bolt, and I think some mass removal is a must, like firespout, but when I played it was never useful, although it's full of merfolk around..
Please help, what should I do?
Removal is what I need.. Or creature stealing, or both..
What I wrote is what I really want, then from the berserks on you can change all..
A friend of mine suggests Elephan Grass, it slows aggro and stops tombstalker, progenitus etc..
Well, no one ever said it would be smart to bring in Sower against Canadian Thresh. But I'm not going to play Control Magic just for that matchup. There are better cards to board in (REB/Divert).
It's less stable in those situations, but there are still things you can do: divert Edict/Pulse/StP to hit Crusher, and Path/Fireblast to hit Thoctar. The point isn't just that it's occasionally amazing; it's also more useful against the entire field, not just red decks. Eva Green and other sui variants are a good example.
Sower is really good in any kind of CB/Top mirror TBH it sucks badly vs Zoo and is mediocre at best against Merfolk. It's a metagame call, not everybody should be running it in their board. Also, Divert is a situational card even in the matchups you bring it in. Better off just running removal (Bolt, BEB) in those slots, because you know they'll almost always be good when you bring them in.
UR Dreadstill creator and BRx WGD Combo Pioneer
I've been running Sower of Temptation in my board when Aggro Loam was running rampant in my metagame but in the meanwhile it is no longer needed as I feel comfortable playing the CB + Top mirror against most people and actually even in those matchups Sower is definitely not reliable as he dies so easily and more or less forces your opponent to answer him. Furthermore he has cc4 and gets dazed easily if you can't find a 5th land before you have to cast him. I've played Sower of Temptation in several decks now and I have to say that i just don't think he is very strong in Dreadstill.
Besides I ran Ur Dreadstill in the German Legacy Championships. I do own Goyfs and Trops but my testing has shown that in a vast majority of matchups my Ur version was superior to the Ugr lists.
I ended up 6-3 and my matchups were the following:
Round 1: Canadian Threshold 2-1
(I lost 1 game to Trygon Predator but the other 2 were won with Dreadnought/ by landing a Blood Moon)
Round 2: Imperial Painter (2-0)
Game 1 I win with Top + Counterbalance on turn 2 on the play after he drops a Turn 1 Painter and can't resolve any more spells for the rest of the game.
Game 2 boils down to him dropping Grindstone + Painter and me having basically no answer to that. I ask him for the color for Painter and he says blue. In response to the Grindstone activation I slam a Red Elemental Blast on the table and destroy the Painter with it and win from there on because 1 Mishra's Factory > 2 Imperial Recruiter and 1 Simian Spirit Guide.
Round 3: Uwb Geoff Smellski Landstill 0-2 (I guess it is a quite hard matchup and he got very lucky. Game 1 I drop 2nd turn Counterbalance and 3rd Turn Dreadnought, he forces my stifle, I stifle again. Then he tries to remove my Dreadnought with Swords to Plowshares, I whiff on Counterbalance and Force back, which he forces back again. Afterwards I proceed to lose to an Elspeth, 2nd game I managed to Crucible + Waste all of his lands but 4 basics he got into play and lost on turn 20 to 2 Decree of Justice token as I hadn't found Stifle, Mishra, Explosives or Trinket Mage yet...)
Round 4: Canadian Threshold 2-0 (He didn't seem to be that familiar with his deck to say the least and I didn't have a hard time winning)
Round 5: Aggro Loam 1-2
(This is the match that annoyed me most to lose as in testing it was really favorable. Game 1 I mull to 4 as I don't see any lands, play 1 Wasteland the whole game and scoop so he doesn't see what I play. Game 2 second turn Nought wins as he didn't board in Grips.
Game 3 I landed a Turn 2 Standstill after having spell snared his 2nd Turn Tarmogoyf. On turn 3 he drew a Countryside Crusher I destroyed via Blue Elemental Blast. I dropped a Counterbalance to bait a Grip and it did its duty and then I ran out a Dreadnought but he had a 2nd Grip for it. He played 3 Pernicious Deed and 3 Krosan Grip in this game but in the end it boiled down to me having 8 life points, Crucible, Mishra, Wasteland, Counterbalance, Top, 4 other lands (with a fetch land) and a Trinket Mage while he was sitting on his 2 Basics, a Mox Diamond and had a Goyf in Play. Here I misplayed by drawing the only cc2 card I had on top of my deck and playing a Standstill. I guess I was just too greedy as there was virtually no other way to lose this game. We were also close to time and thus I had already popped an unnecessary Relic of Progenitus before as I had a 2nd one only to have the other one Gripped and be left without any graveyard removal. That's why the Tarmogoyf was 6/7. He dropped a 2nd Tarmogoyf, I topped, fetched, topped and failed to find any cc2 card or Engineered Explosivs and had to force the goyf. The next turn he dropped his 4th Goyf and killed me with it.
I know that I misplayed this game but I am still not satisfied with Dreadstill's inability to handle threads, especially postboard. My boardingplan Vs Aggro Loam on the Draw was:
-3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
-2 Trickbind
-1 Daze
+2 Blue Elemental Blast
+2 Relic of Progenitus
+1 Engineered Explosives
I am boarding out the Dreadnoughts because of the critical mass of removal Aggro Loam reaches in G2/G3 with them having Burning wish, Engineered Explosives, Krosan Grip and whatever spot removal they might run. The 1 Dreadnought is left in to use spare stifles and to have one to search up via Trinket Mage.
Round 6: UGW Counterbalance + Natural Order Threshold: 2-1.
Here my boarding plan was to take out the Dreadnoughts as well, in this case all 4 of them. I Wasted to out control my opponent and went for:
-4 Daze (to gain a late game advantage)
-4 Phyrexian Dreadnought (4 Qasali Pride mage, 4 Swords to Plowshares, X Path to Exile and 4 Krosan Grip proved to be too much in testing while the control plan is very good and won me both sideboard games)
+3 Pyroclasm (Pridemage, Noble Hierarch, Goyf afer Relic)
+3 Pyroblast (Counter and kills Rhox War Monk)
+1 Engineered Explosives (best card in this matchup)
+1 Crucible of Worlds (Crucible + Waste / CC3 for Counterbalance and recurring (chump)- blockers.
+2 Relic of Progenitus (shrinks Goyf)
Round 7: Mono W T2 Kithkins 2-0
I got severely mana Screwed both game and won game 1 with a 3rd Turn Dreadnought and game 2 very close with Trinket Mage -> Explosives and a lot of counters while having 3 Pyroclasm in hand but no Red mana despite topping brainstorming a lot this game.
Round 8: Rgb Goblins (1-2)
Game 1 is won with a 2nd Turn Dreadnought.
My boarding plan:
-3 Counterbalance
-4 Standstill
-1 Crucible of Worlds
+2 Blue Elemental Blast
+1 Engineered Explosives
+3 Pyroclasm
+2 Blood Moon (cuts them of their removal !!!, Standstill + Factory is not viable in this matchup at least not on the draw, makes sure they can't destroy all of your red mana sources.)
Spell Snare stays in over Standstill because I want to win via Dreadnought and Spell Snare counters Warren Weirding and Tin Street Hooligan.
Game 2 I think I should have mulliganed my 6 card hand consisting of
Island, Mishra's Factory, Sensei's Divining Top, Spell Snare, Daze, and Trinket Mage.
Actually this does nothing at all VS Goblins on the draw. Usually this had is perfectly fine against most decks but it doesn't get an early Dreadnought and has no solutions for any reasonable start goblins can put up. I get killed by Lackey -> Siege Gang Commander.
Game 3 I drop an early Nought and swing in once. Then I have it killed via Tin Street Hooligan and get Wasted down to 1 Island. He is mana screwed as well and just beating me down with Hooligan and 1 Goblin Matron he played before wasting me. Down to 8 Life I get a Brainstorm and find Fetchland, Daze, Force of Will. I put back Force and some random card from my hand (as he is still mana screwed was my reasoning) and fetch it away. The next turn I draw a Stifle from the top for my Dreadnought waiting in my hand and go for it. As he just has 2 mana, Daze + Force should get me there (he is at 7 from the last Nought) unless he has a Grip and topdecks a land, in which case it doesn't matter what I do. I go for the nought and he Pyroblasts my Stifle and I think: I am a scrub. Of course Goblins can have blasts postboard to screw with blue decks as well.
I force it and my Nought resolves. On his next turn he draws a Land to pay for the Daze and kills my Nought with Warren Weirding and proceeds to win.
This was really dumb as taking the force would simply have won this game and I handed a win my deck gave me with the topdecked stifle straight away because I hadn't thought of Pyroblast.
Round 9: Zoo (2-0)
Game 1 I am still angry on myself because I scrubbed out so hard last match and drop turn 2 Dreadnought, turn 3 Dreadnought on the play while he gets a Qasali Pride Mage on his 2nd turn and scoops afterwards.
Game 2 he plays a turn 1 Wild Nacatl, turn 2 Qasali Pride Mage, turn 3 Qasali Pride Mage. I play turn 3 Pyroclasm and it's over after I get rid of a Goyf via Engineered Explosives and get CB + Top going.
My maindeck was this: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=23002 (Standard Ur deck list)
with my sideboard being:
3 Pyroclasm
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Blood Moon
1 Tormod's Crypt
Basically I have huge problems with Krosan Grip in the Aggo matchups. Versus most control decks I can just take out my Noughts and win postboard but VS Goblins and Goyf Sligh / Zoo (Not Aggro Loam as this is usually very favorable for me) I need a fast nought to win most of the time. My testing has shown that most of the time Goyf is "neat" but I'd rather have 4 Noughts, 3 Trinket Mage and a full set of Dazes + the Crucible (the single copy is the card that improves this deck's lategame as much as I'd never have thought one card can do). Goyf was always ok but green gave us a weaker mana base and regarding the matchups goyf isn't particularly strong in the agggro control matchups, he does very little Vs Merfolk and you need at least 2-3 of them to win against Goblins and Goyf Sligh while Nought does the job alone in game 1. I want to have the highest possible chance to get an early Dreadnought VS random decks and aggro in G1/G2 so I would never cut any Dreadnoughts/ Trickbinds/ Trinket Mage for them.
(I might actually be biased in favor of Trinket Mage because I like the card a lot for what it does in this deck by getting the single Explosives as our only removal spell as well as Top to complement the counterbalance lock and improve card quality as well as Dreadnought and GY hate post board.)
Basically I don't want to chance the maindeck as it runs so smoothly for me but rather the sideboard. I want the deck to be better against Krosan Grip and I'm tired of getting killed by single weak threats such as Goyfs shrinked by Relic, Noble Hierarch beats, Mishra's Factory, 2 Decree of Justice tokens, Qasali Pride Mage... Especially the last named has proven to cause serious trouble despite us having many Stifle effects.
What do you think about:
2 Magus of the Moon
3 Kira Great Glass Spinner
2 Sower of Temptation
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Pyroclasm
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Pyroblast
I yet have to come up with any good solutions to Krosan Grip, the best ones being Meddling Mage and Duress from the board but this means splashing another color that isn't red and Pyroblast and Pyroclasm / Moon were the best sideboardcards next to Relic of Progenitus I've ever had so far.
So on sunday i am gonna play a larger tournament around here and need to set up my decklist now. My current:
3 Dreadnought
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Trinket Mage
4 Brainstorm
3 Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
2 Daze
3 Spell Snare
3 Standstill
1 engineerd explosives
2 Lightning Bolt
3 M. Factory
4 Volcanic Island
4 Tropical Island
1 Island
3 flooded strand
3 polluted delta
3 wasteland
Sideboard:
2 Tormods crypt
2 pithing needle
3 firespout
3 pyroblast
2 submerge
3 krosan grip
I still dont feel like playing 2 daze but maybe its correct that daze isnt really needed at all. As i dont like running sower maybe it will still be better than submerge?
What you guys think about the list? Is there something that definitly should be modified? - The Meta will be like the most common metas, Merfolk,Survival,Zoo,Landstill,Loam, Countertop etc..
Muradin you're boarding out too many Dreadnoughts in most of your matches...never go below 2 in any matchup no matter how much removal they have...it's still your primary win condition and if you board out 3 or 4 you will find it hard to ever win a round. Counterbalance pretty much shuts down a vast majority of the removal vs Tribe and Aggro Loam. The only card you really have to fear with this deck is Krosan Grip. That's the only card we cannot answer. You also have to remember that if they have 1000000x removal spells for our Dreadnoughts maindeck that means they have very little actual potency of threats and whatnot.
As for my boarding strategies I will always stay at least 2 Dreadnoughts in any matchup no matter what they're playing. Even the matchups Standstill is medicore in (Merfolk) I sometimes will leave in one, as a silver bullet. Postboard with Crucibles you actually can use Standstill alot better then most. Believe it or not Standstill is not that terrible against Gobz postboard...we have EE BEB FoW for their first turn plays. Sometimes I'll leave in two even on the draw.
As for sideboards this is what I think you should try out
2 Magus of the Moon
3 Kira Great Glass Spinner
2 Sower of Temptation
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Pyroclasm
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Pyroblast
Magus is meh right now with Zoo/Tempo Thresh on the rise. Not to mention it does absolutely nothing vs Merfolk. Kira is nice but slow you will find it not be a sufficient answer to K-Grip. Sower as stated is okay but against any kind of tribal decks you're going to want faster answers, especially against Goblins and Merfolk. Relics are pretty good they are an absolute house. Pyroclasms inability to handle Nacatl, Ape...and 3/3 Lord pumped tribal critters made me turn away from this card a while ago. Not to mention it won't kill Mongoose most of the time.
This is why I'm running and it's been very solid
// Lands
6 [APL] Island (3)
2 [U] Volcanic Island
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (2)
3 [TE] Wasteland
// Creatures
4 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 [FD] Trinket Mage
// Spells
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [CS] Counterbalance
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [SC] Stifle
2 [TSP] Trickbind
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [DIS] Spell Snare
SB: 3 [SHM] Firespout
SB: 3 [4E] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
SB: 2 [TSP] Wipe Away
SB: 3 [BD] Lightning Bolt
UR Dreadstill creator and BRx WGD Combo Pioneer
Every UGR build runs Firespout in the SB. How did it work for you? I'm just asking because it has never been so great to me..
I was playing UGr build and running 2 firespouts but the grow of merfolks make me find spot for 4 lighting bolt and 3 firespouts , if i won the G2 and G3 against merfolks that is firespouts giving me time to do a secure dreadnought and card advantage that the standstill (sided out) should do in the deck.Against Goblins it just is the way to victory if you can't race them with nought or counter the T1 lackey.
Thanks for the answer. Now another question: why is everyone playing lightning bolt instead of fire/ice? Ok, fire is 1 damage less, but with ice it's much more versatile: it slows down tombstalker, a threat that the deck can't answer once it's on the board. Is that 1 damage more so important, or is it 1 mana less or what?
You might think Fire//Ice is more versatile, but it has additional constraints over Lightning Bolt: (a) it deals 1 less dmg, so it can't kill Nacatl, Kird Ape, Countryside Crusher, and it's less likely to kill Goyf/multiple lords, and (b) it costs 1 more, which makes it impossible to remove turn 1 Lackey on the draw, and more difficult to play it in conjunction with top/factory activations.
I like a split, with Bolt slightly favored.
So, this is my latest list. Hope I'll have time to playtest the changes today..
First of, I play 20 lands. I tried 20 and 21 in the past and I'm fine with both.
Second, the list unfortunately has 61 cards to fit all I wanted.
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
3 Island
3 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
3 Phytexian Dreadnought
2 Trinket Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
1 Trickbind
3 Daze
3 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Counterbalance
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Standstill
3 Krosan Grip
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Pithing Needle
2 Crucible of Worlds
3 Firespout
3 Red Elemental Blast
What do you think about it? I tried to fit 3 Lightning Bolts in the main and since I had 2 open slots I chose to play 61 cards.
Those 2 slots could have been 1 more Dreadnought + Trickbind or 1 more Counterbalance + 1 more Sensei's Divining Top and thus play 60 cards.
The side was tight and this is the main reason I chose for Lightning Bolt in the main board..
I think the side is quite balanced and it should rock merfolk and landstill.
Waiting for time to playtest it hope to find some comments!
If I had 2 slots for berserk that I love.. Yeah, I know.. I'm the onlyone who likes it.. "Smile"
It is just what I think , Bolt is better than Fire/Ice because of (a) AND (b) also i don't play BEB so the remove turn 1 lackey is very relevant for me( considering my meta).
Obs: I found very dificult to do 2 for 1 with Fire/Ice and the answer to trygon , and zoo creatures are essecial in a my meta.
The thing is, Bolt is a better card. The chances of doing a 2 for 1 in today's meta of mostly Zoo and Tempo Thresh, are straight up 0. (Personally I feel that Dreadstill, in general, is a horrid choice for the meta, but that's another topic entirely.)
Also, how often do you find yourself using Ice? Dreadstill is much more a control deck than an Aggro Control one, so tapping lands isn't a brilliant plan.
I would just cut a Daze from this list (maybe just cut it entirely, and add in another Counterbalance and a Top?)
On a side note, why does Dreadstill play so many colours? It seems like Mono-Blue would be better since you just need to resolve your dude and protect him. Using lots of bounce, such as Echoing Truth and Wipe Away maybe?
Why choose Dreadstill in today's metagame? It seems since Pridemage is getting so popular, and so are things like Krosan Grip, that this deck is a huge mistake for the metagame? Tempo Thresh, although a different deck (with a lot of the same cards...), seems like a much better choice for the metagame.
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