[Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

[FoolofaTook]

Why choose Dreadstill in today's metagame? It seems since Pridemage is getting so popular, and so are things like Krosan Grip, that this deck is a huge mistake for the metagame? Tempo Thresh, although a different deck (with a lot of the same cards...), seems like a much better choice for the metagame.

Dreadstill is still a decent choice to play in the current meta. It still has the best combination of fast disruption, lockdown cards, fast wins and card advantage and selection.

It's getting hammered on by Qasali Pridemage and to a lesser extent the spread of Spell Snare, which is not a bad thing - because before those two cards became widespread I felt like the 3c list was far and away the best list in the meta.

The only question that I have at the moment is whether or not the 2c (really MUC) list that Roodmistah favors has regained top position (in terms of Dreadstill pecking order) over the 3c Goyf version that J.V. runs. The 2c list has a better mana base for the Stifle/Wasteland heavy meta that we're in at the moment. The 3c list has Firespout, which is the best addition Dreadstill has seen recently.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

The 2c list has a better mana base for the Stifle/Wasteland heavy meta that we're in at the moment. The 3c list has Firespout, which is the best addition Dreadstill has seen recently.

To be fair, Firespout is not exclusive to 3c Dreadstill since green is rarely needed to sweep the board. Actually, there is no reason not tu run Firespout in 2c Dreadstill; most list ran Pyroclasm but that's not enough against aggro decks anymore.

[FoolofaTook]

To be fair, Firespout is not exclusive to 3c Dreadstill since green is rarely needed to sweep the board. Actually, there is no reason not tu run Firespout in 2c Dreadstill; most list ran Pyroclasm but that's not enough against aggro decks anymore.

The reasons green is nice to have are basically Faerie Stompy, Dragon Stompy and the blue lists that run Sower and Clique. Firespout is more valuable in 3c than 2c at this point. 3c has gotten more value out of the addition of the card. The 2c list can just throw a couple of Tropical Islands in for Islands but then they've given away the mana base stability that characterizes the build now.

There are so many games in the control mirror and the tempo mirror (Dreadstill is both archetypes wrapped up in one) where being able to drop an Island without fetching at the start of the game is a huge key to victory. Giving up the likelihood of that is a definite sacrifice the 3c build makes.

[Rood]

The reasons green is nice to have are basically Faerie Stompy, Dragon Stompy and the blue lists that run Sower and Clique. Firespout is more valuable in 3c than 2c at this point. 3c has gotten more value out of the addition of the card. The 2c list can just throw a couple of Tropical Islands in for Islands but then they've given away the mana base stability that characterizes the build now.

There are so many games in the control mirror and the tempo mirror (Dreadstill is both archetypes wrapped up in one) where being able to drop an Island without fetching at the start of the game is a huge key to victory. Giving up the likelihood of that is a definite sacrifice the 3c build makes.

To be fair you'd be highly unlucky if you ever ran into Faerie Stompy or Dragon Stompy in a tournament. And even then...you still run REB to smash on FS's soul and Lightning Bolt to handle Dragon Stompy. Not to mention Standstill slays both decks badly. Stifle/Waste is a huge problem that I think cannot be ignored anymore you're right. When I make new decks now I seriously just try for the maximum of basic lands I can fit into the deck just for the reason of how hard it is to hate on that manabase.

[pippo84]

To be fair you'd be highly unlucky if you ever ran into Faerie Stompy or Dragon Stompy in a tournament.

You are right, but this makes me laugh because something like 3 tournaments ago I faced both DS and FS in a row! Btw lost to the first for a misplay and won the second..

[lorddotm]

What about running the other 3 possible Stifle effects in the side, seeing as they are amazing versus Zoo, attacking their mana base and stopping Pridemages. Also, personally think that the UR one seems like a better metagame choice for a controlling deck. You don't really want your lands blown to hell, so that helps a lot (plus you can get away with only 4-6 fetches). Tarmogoyf is just lame here and worse than 'Naught. This is what I would run for this deck:

3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
4 Island
4 Volcanic Island

4 Phytexian Dreadnought
2 Trinket Mage

4 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
4 Stifle
3 Trickbind
2 Daze
3 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Relic of Progenitus

1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Trickbind
2 Crucible of Worlds
3 Firespout
3 Red Elemental Blast
4 Lightning Bolt

[FoolofaTook]

Tarmogoyf sounds like win more in this deck but it really isn't. It creates a threat density that can just roll the opponent in some matches. It's not a must include, but if you're not facing mana denial the 3c list is stronger than the 2c list. It's the amount of mana denial that is in the meta at the moment that has brought the question back to light again.

Decks with Stifle/Wasteland in the order you're likely to see them in a 5 round tourney: Tempo Threshold, Merfolk, Dreadstill, Team America, Faeries. A significant part of the competitive meta is in those 5 decks especially the first 3.

Decks with Wasteland/Crucible same deal: UWx Landstill, Ultimate Walker.

Decks that will blow up non-basic land plans in a hurry: Goblins, Aggro Loam, Dragon Stompy.

So the question is whether or not the raw power of Tarmogoyf in almost every matchup is worth the risk of sitting down opposite one of the above and losing because their scheme runs smoothly and cuts yours off at the knees.

On your list: not enough threats in my opinion. You'll have games where you wait forever to draw something after you have gotten the advantage and will subsequently lose the advantage as a result. I would take out 2 Trickbind, which are weak cards in a lot of matchups and put back in a Trinket Mage and a Mishra's Factory. The question of 4 Sensei's Divining Top and 4 Counterbalance is I guess preferential. The people who have been playing the list the longest tend to run 3 (or even 2) tops and 3 Counterbalance. I don't know which is the best choice to make but the people who do have chosen less CounterTop for more other stuff.

[pippo84]

Agreed. Tarmogoyf is not a win more. It is another threat added to the deck! Without it you will have some games where you just wait to find nought and if your opponent has creatures on the board you can't drop a standstill. And with the low removal the deck has you'll eventually lose.
Btw if you don't play tarmogoyf you must play 3 trinket mages and 4 noughts.
From my experience I don't remember having big problems with 3 color manabase even though it's full of wasteland etc around..

[J.V.]

• Are people really having that much of a problem with Pridemage? Honestly I have had zero issue winning right through him, since Zoo became what it currently is I'm X-1 (With a loss to Scrumdogg off of 2 mulls to 5 in 3 games and it still came down to him top decking a K Grip with 0 cards in hand to just squeak through for a win that would have been unreachable if I was able to untap and blow my E.E.) against it and I've played it plenty. I run 3 Spell Snare, 5 Stifle Effects, Dazes and Forces, and if it comes down first Counterbalance has a good shot at countering it. (not to mention Lightning Bolt and Firespout out of the board) He just isn't on the board enough to be relevant. I feel like zoo plays out like this about 90% of the time They play a couple of guys I counter their Goyf. Then I either E.E. or Firespout wiping the rest of their creatures and drop a standstill. From there they are never really in the game anymore since I get so ahead on cards. Also even with Pridemage and K-Grip getting to 3 mana for either can be really tough for them through Stifles and Wastes.
  
• Also on a side note, for anyone like me who cut the GY hate from the board I suggest re-adding it since Ichorid just won Worlds and Eli's most recent tournament and I really expect it to spike in play.
  

• Tarmogoyf is just lame here and worse than 'Naught.

  What are you basing this off of? I win just as many games with Goyf as I do Nought. In all honesty Rodney just wins with a sub par deck because he's better at magic than 90% of the people who play, I don't think he even believes the deck is better without Goyf anymore, he just goes with the philosophy of why fix something that isn't broken.
  
• And while I'm on a tangent, to the people playing Firespout in Ur you should be running at least one trop to fetch out to spout the air and to improve E.E.
  Reasons why:
  Vendilion Clique
  Sower of Temptation
  Hypnotic Specter
  Rakdos Pit Dragon
  Trygon Predator
  etc, etc
  
• Despite the fact I doubt you are reading the Dreadstill Thread, this list is Dedicated to you Zach Tartell. <3

[Tangle.Wire]

So heres some food from me:

As i already said i played on a bigger local tournament playing the 0815 UGR build exactly this:

3 Dread
2 Trinket
4 Goofy

4 Counterbalance
3 d. top
4 brainstorm
4 stifle
3 daze
3 spell snare
2 engineered explosives
4 foce of will
3 standstill

3 mishras factory
3 wasteland
2 island
3 tropical island
4 volcanic island
3 polluted delta
3 flooded strand

Sideboard:

3 pyroblast
3 firespout
2 krosan grip
2 trygon predator
3 relic of progenitus
2 submerge


The matchups ended like this:

Game 1 - Elves - 2:1
Game 2 - Eva Green - 1:2 (lucky guy)
Game 3 - B/W/U Countertop - 1:2
Game 4 - Solidarity - 2:0
Game 5 - Dredge 1:2
Game 6 - Countertop G/U/W/B? - 2:1
Game 7 - Dropped cause i wanted to get home ^^

All the day i wondered how unlucky i was against the Eva green and the countertop on game 3 i am sure without a bad draw as i had even after mulligan i would have won those games.

For the list i found out some new experiences:

- Trygon Predator was quiete better than krosan grips all the day.
- Daze was only pitched to a force in one game then i always boarded them out or didnt even draw any. (i didnt need them at all)
- I lost 2 rounds against critters like confidant/single elves
- I agree there have to be better slots than submerge or at least beside submerge to handly tombstalkers
- 2 explosives in the mainboard a much stronger than i ever thought, they won 1game and even saved a lot of time for 2-3 other games.

After all i saw a lot of zoo, r/g beats and the common meerfolks beside the tables making sure UGR is a pretty solid build on my meta.


I already changed my list up like this getting faster without cutting the counterbalance as i always tried:

3 Dreadnought
4 Goofy
2 Trinket Mage

3 D. top
4 Counterbalance
4 stifle
3 lightning bolt
4 brainstorm
3 spell snare
4 force of will
3 standstill
2 engineered explosives

Sideboard:

2 Control Magic
3 Trygon Predator
3 Pyroblast
2 Reclic of Progenitus
3 Firespout
2 submerge


I think the few games i would have liked daze on my hand i would have countered fast creatures hindering me playing the standstill or just locking up with the counterbalance so even the early goofies are played as 2/3 creatures so all the problems i got could have been fixed by a L. Bolt either i didnt play the matchups they are really good at.

[J.V.]

The two Dazes aren't random at all. Daze itself is a terrible card that tends to clog up your hand beyond turn 3/4 so by running two you don't draw into too many of them but you draw it enough for your opponent to know you run it so they still play around it which makes it worth while.

That. Also how was Submerge out of the board for you?

[pippo84]

I'm not sure about running just 2 Daze. Ok, if the game lasts quite a bit they are useless, but you really want to see them at the beginning of the game, something like turn 2 or 3.
I play, 3 Daze, 3 Spell Snare, 4 Force of will and 3 Counterbalance. A thing that I love is counters, probably it's a way I like to play, but I always wish I had more counters available.
Unfortunately there is no other free counter avaialble.. (Don't tell me pact of negation!!)

[Xero_2285]

Was wondering if I can get some thoughts on this build:

3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Trinket Mage

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Daze
3 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
1 Trickbind
2 Krosan Grip
3 Standstill
3 Counterbalance
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives

3 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Island
3 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island

SB:
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Firespout
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Krosan Grip
1 Tormod's Crypt

Mainboard Grip is great for NLU, MBC, Survival, and to an extent some Landstill builds. Mainboard Needle has been great for the Zoo (with Pridemage), MBC, Goblins, Affinity, DStompy, Survival, and again some Landstill builds. People in my meta seem to have forgotten all about Needle for some reason and I'm thinking about coming down a Grip main and adding another Needle main. Bolt in the board is amazing at a 4 of, game 2 peeps just don't see it coming and it wrecks guys like Coatl/Sower and can win Goyf wars. 3 CB/2 Top has done me good, I almost don't see the need to go up to the 4/3 split. Any thoughts/help would be greatly appreciated.

[FoolofaTook]

I'm considering trying a slightly more controlling version of the Ur build. I'm having some trouble in testing against Landstill and I'm also looking at Ultimate Walker as potentially problematic although I don't have a test partner for it yet. What I want to do is keep 95% of the Ur Dreadstill shell and add a few cards that help out in the control mirror against slower control decks, particularly ones running 4+ StP effects and Planeswalkers.

This is kind of the first list that came to mind and I'd definitely like some feedback. I'll be testing it against Landstill a lot in the next week I think.

Ur Dreadstill Control

4x Phyrexian Dreadnought
3x Trinket Mage
4x Mishra's Factory

4x Brainstorm
2x Sensei's Divining Top

3x Standstill
1x Fact or Fiction
1x Crucible of Worlds
3x Counterbalance

4x Force of Will
3x Daze
3x Spell Snare
4x Stifle
1x Trickbind

3x Wasteland

2x Engineered Explosives
1x Academy Ruins

3x Flooded Strand
2x Polluted Delta
3x Volcanic Island
6x Island

Sideboard

3x Blood Moon
3x Firespout
2x Relic of Progenitus
2x Tormod's Crypt
2x Red Elemental Blast
2x Pyroblast
1x Pithing Needle

The changes are fairly limited in the main deck, basically adding 1x Fact or Fiction, 1x Crucible of Worlds and 1x Academy Ruins and subtracting 1x Standstill, 1x Daze/Spell Snare and forgoing the 6th stifle effect/12th counter/3rd SDT that kind of squishes around in the normal build.

I added the Fact or Fiction for the 4th Standstill because I want more card advantage against slow control and I don't want to be completely dependent on Standstill in games where Standstill is a dead card.

Crucible of Worlds went in as another card advantage device that also is capable of being another lock for the deck against an opponent that has a shaky manabase. This also allowed me to put in Academy Ruins for the AR/EE potential lock that you can get occasionally.

Overall the list has 11 cards in it that are card advantage with 3x Trinket Mage, 3x Standstill, 3x Counterbalance, 1x Crucible of Worlds and 1x Fact or Fiction. I'm curious as to how the card balance feels now against slower control. I usually feel a bit lower on cards in those matches and I want to change that a bit.

The sideboard has 3x Blood Moon as an experiment. I know Roodmistah has tried this in the past and I'm going to give it a shot too just to see how it works. Likely Standstill will be the tuneout when the moons go in. I'm particularly interested in seeing how Tempo Threshold reacts to Blood Moon. There's lots of red there but no basics at all.

[Muradin]

I'm particularly interested in seeing how Tempo Threshold reacts to Blood Moon. There's lots of red there but no basics at all.

It enters the scoop phase. Unless they have already a beater in play or you are on very low life the game is basically over as soon as you resolve a Blood Moon. The card has lost a lot of its former value in my experience as nobody is running 4 color Landstill or ITF any more but it still wins matchups like Nassif.dec, Tempo Threshold and beats some Rock builds.

[Shimi]

Tarmogoyf is not a win more. It is another threat added to the deck! Without it you will have some games where you just wait to find nought and if your opponent has creatures on the board you can't drop a standstill. And with the low removal the deck has you'll eventually lose.

That is why i play UGr , also Goyf will be a target for removel and if he dies (smother , new terror , edict and StP) there is a clean path to your Nought and with green we just gain KGrip (dreadstill is very vunerable to CB/Top).From my records i win more games because of Goyf than i lose to my "vulnerable" manabase(the great diference is that you must know when fetch for your tropicals and volcanics).


I would NEVER cut daze..it makes your opponent play slower which helps on playing your nought with "protection",and you can do standstill/CB/Goyf and still counter your opponent play next turn.

Also if i would be forced to play Ur i would play with 4 lightning bolts and 4 Mishra's Maindeck.

[Tangle.Wire]

That. Also how was Submerge out of the board for you?

Submerge where just played at 2 games i already won, but id like to play 3 of them they are pretty strong and i nearly wished every game to have one same for the lightning bolts as dreadstill hast just to survive till u drop the counterbalance or nought so in fact thats it why i dropped daze completely out of my list, everything i countered with daze could be removed/stopped by other spells i play also daze slows down the own deck as i want to drop a land nearly for every round till i have 3-4.

-> ps: what do you guys think how many people really expect that u don't run daze? yes they dont see it but 99% of blue, at least countertop decks run them so just bluff for it. i did it 3 times on my last tournament by just doing as i wanted to lift an island for a daze while i was "thinking" so my opponent thought i would have a daze and didn't want to waste it so he played the crap spells first to run into my daze what never happend as i got enough time to race the game :D

[FoolofaTook]

Just be careful not to take your bluff too far and materially change the game state as a result. If you actually put the Island in your hand as part of the bluff your opponent could demand that you play the Daze you were implying and call a judge over if you refused and tried to return the Island to play instead.

Any play that legally and materially changes the game state (like tapping a land as an example) cannot be taken back unless your opponent allows you to do so. Plays that materially change the game state in an illegal fashion, like returning an Island to your hand to play a Daze you do not have, can cause a forfeit.

[Tangle.Wire]

Just be careful not to take your bluff too far and materially change the game state as a result. If you actually put the Island in your hand as part of the bluff your opponent could demand that you play the Daze you were implying and call a judge over if you refused and tried to return the Island to play instead.

Any play that legally and materially changes the game state (like tapping a land as an example) cannot be taken back unless your opponent allows you to do so. Plays that materially change the game state in an illegal fashion, like returning an Island to your hand to play a Daze you do not have, can cause a forfeit.

Slow down, u just say "wait let me think" touch your island...say "no its fine, go on" and the opponent thinks you got anything you could cast actually while he is playing a spell so he will remind it for the next turns.

Its a classic bluff where no Judge could ever say some cause you dont return the land, you dont tap it for anything and you dont show/play anything from your hand. Its also a strategy i dont use only on daze its a safe way to ruin your opponents mind while both playing counters just letting him feel you got force on your hand but letting the "weak" spells resolve.

It definitly doesnt work after a cabal therapy, duress, thoughtseize anyway :D







ps: Are there any UR/UGR Dreadstill tournament reports beside the one vsTheWorld wrote?

[Xero_2285]

ps: Are there any UR/UGR Dreadstill tournament reports beside the one vsTheWorld wrote?

Last Saturday I went 4-2 with the list I posted above:

R1: UWx Landstill 1-2
R2: MonoR Burn 2-0
R3: UGW Zoo? 2-0
R4: RGB Zoo? 2-1
R5: MBC 1-2
R6: Same UGW Zoo 2-0