[Deck] Ultimate Walker

[legacyplayer0]

Thanks for the support. The loss against Gus's pile was more painful than you can imagine.

[Fossil4182]

Is there a reason not to run Pernicious Deed over Engineered Explosives besides the fact the deck can recur Explosives with Academy Ruins? I ask because Deed would seem to be a functionally better board sweeper given its ability to hit just about everything. Plus, it can board sweep everything will still leaving the Planeswalkers intact.

[Raptor]

Is there a reason not to run Pernicious Deed over Engineered Explosives besides the fact the deck can recur Explosives with Academy Ruins? I ask because Deed would seem to be a functionally better board sweeper given its ability to hit just about everything. Plus, it can board sweep everything will still leaving the Planeswalkers intact.

Deed can be really slow, getting green mana + black can be harsh to have. Plus you waste a turn playing it and another turn activating it. EE does almost the same thing and cost way less and not to mention the academy ruins "lock" which will win game by itself.

[Jak]

I'm really just about to try this deck for the first time. I thought I would put up what I am about to run with.

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
4 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
1 Plateau
3 Island
1 Plains
2 Academy Ruins

1 Eternal Dragon
2 Ajani Vengeant
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Lightning Helix
3 Firespout
1 Vedalken Shackles

4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare

4 Ancestral Visions
3 Brainstorm
3 Cunning Wish
2 Compulsive Research

SB
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Negate / Counterspell
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Instant Sweeper (ideas? I was thinking Volcanic Fallout but that is heavy red. Cleansing Beam? This slot probably isn't even needed.)
2 Krosan Grip
3 Path to Exile
4 Pyroblast
2 Crucible of Worlds

I hate changing decks up before testing, but since there really is no established list, I tried to mash them all together. I am definitely trying out Phil's list now since I love the toolbox, however, I am trying to tune this to a more aggro meta. Thoughts? Is there anything that definitely needs to be in here that I am missing? I also know that it is 62 cards. I plan to trim it after testing.

[Esper3k]

If you're going to run singleton Shackles, I'd consider running Enlightened Tutor as a 1 of so you have some ways to get it.

I've liked 1 Tolaria West (may go back up to 2) just to tutor for EE or Academy Ruins to complete the EE lock.

[Jak]

If you're going to run singleton Shackles, I'd consider running Enlightened Tutor as a 1 of so you have some ways to get it.

I've liked 1 Tolaria West (may go back up to 2) just to tutor for EE or Academy Ruins to complete the EE lock.

I thought about Tutor, but it just really isn't worth it. Shackles is more of another removal spell / win condition.

Totally forgot about Tolaria West grabbing EE. I had the 1-1 split with Ruins but I figured 2 is better than one if it gets destroyed or something. If I don't like Trops, I'll probably add in 2 Wasteland and 2 Factories to go along with 1 Ruins and 1 West.

[from Cairo]

Totally forgot about Tolaria West grabbing EE. I had the 1-1 split with Ruins but I figured 2 is better than one if it gets destroyed or something. If I don't like Trops, I'll probably add in 2 Wasteland and 2 Factories to go along with 1 Ruins and 1 West.

Tolaria West is amazing in this shell: Ancestral Visions, Engineered Explosives, Wasteland, Academy Ruins, Mishra's Factory... can grab card drawing, answers to any threat, recursion engine or beats.

[Esper3k]

The only reason I'm running 1 of Tolaria West right now is when you get it in your opening hand with say 1-2 other lands, you just want to cry :(

I just mentioned the Enlightened Tutor with Shackles since you're playing Shackles as a 1 of, you probably won't see it that often. With Tutor, at least it gives you effectively 2 copies of it, plus it can grab other stuff (although I guess you're not running Humility).

[Cenarius]

I'm really just about to try this deck for the first time. I thought I would put up what I am about to run with.

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
4 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
1 Plateau
3 Island
1 Plains
2 Academy Ruins

1 Eternal Dragon
2 Ajani Vengeant
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Lightning Helix
3 Firespout
1 Vedalken Shackles

4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare

4 Ancestral Visions
3 Brainstorm
3 Cunning Wish
2 Compulsive Research

SB
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Negate / Counterspell
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Instant Sweeper (ideas? I was thinking Volcanic Fallout but that is heavy red. Cleansing Beam? This slot probably isn't even needed.)
2 Krosan Grip
3 Path to Exile
4 Pyroblast
2 Crucible of Worlds

I hate changing decks up before testing, but since there really is no established list, I tried to mash them all together. I am definitely trying out Phil's list now since I love the toolbox, however, I am trying to tune this to a more aggro meta. Thoughts? Is there anything that definitely needs to be in here that I am missing? I also know that it is 62 cards. I plan to trim it after testing.

Got some questions for you:

Why 2 Academy Ruins?
Why do you think Firespout + Helix is better than any other removal? For example: Wrath of God/Humilty/Moat?
Why do you think Compulsive Research is better than Jace Beleren? It says 1UU Draw a card, Then prevent damage or draw another card in your next turn.
Why do you think Ancestral Vision is better than Standstill? Maybe a bit weird question but I personally prefer the effect Standstill has over the game.

[Esper3k]

I do think the Ancestral Vision vs Standstill debate is an interesting one.

Here's how I see it:

Standstill

Pros:
-Almost always gets your cards faster
-Can almost immediately break stalemates
-Plays really well with Planeswalkers and Factories

Cons:
-Spell Snarable
-On board removal such as Qasali Pridemage/Seals/EE is bad for it
-Can benefit your opponent
-Greater chance of running across decks that are also built to use it

Ancestral Vision

Pros:
-Amazing if suspended early
-Low mana investment
-Doesn't tend to grow Tarmogoyf

Cons:
-Slow!
-Counterbalance + Top = Sad Times
-Chalice @ 0

[miko]

Standstill

Pros:
-Almost always gets your cards faster
-Can almost immediately break stalemates
-Plays really well with Planeswalkers and Factories

Cons:
-Spell Snarable
-On board removal such as Qasali Pridemage/Seals/EE is bad for it
-Can benefit your opponent
-Greater chance of running across decks that are also built to use it

Ancestral Vision

Pros:
-Amazing if suspended early
-Low mana investment
-Doesn't tend to grow Tarmogoyf

Cons:
-Slow!
-Counterbalance + Top = Sad Times
-Chalice @ 0

so visions win because they only have 3 cons and the same amount of pros whereas standstill has 4 cons?

i mean the pros and cons are obvious. but what do you want to play in ultimate walker?

[Black Mass]

I guess Standstill has lost his effectiveness a bit. Many aggro decks play vial or ways to get past standstill where they might be forcing you to break you own standstill. With AV this problem doesn't occur. You invest 1 mana and 4 turns later mostly you'll be able to draw 3 cards, that is a certainty.

I also like the effect AV has on the board. Aggro tries to overextend because those three cards can mean their end. Control/aggro controll will hold back a counter allmost every single time for it, thus giving you room to play other spells.

You could play either in the deck I guess, but AV seems to be the more attractive card to me.

[jimirynk]

so visions win because they only have 3 cons and the same amount of pros whereas standstill has 4 cons?

i mean the pros and cons are obvious. but what do you want to play in ultimate walker?

But you can stifle visions.

[Esper3k]

But you can stifle visions.

On the other hand, Daze is almost virtually ineffective against Vision as well.

For me, not all of the pros/cons have the same weight.

I like Vision because:

1) It's not played much in Legacy, so people have less experience dealing with it.

2) Standstill, seeing more play, does suffer from dealing with other decks built around it.

3) I like that with AV, you never (barring the odd Misdirect) risk helping your opponent with it.

It also gives you another potential T1 play.

[Cenarius]

I do think the Ancestral Vision vs Standstill debate is an interesting one.

Here's how I see it:

Standstill

Pros:
-Almost always gets your cards faster
-Can almost immediately break stalemates
-Plays really well with Planeswalkers and Factories

Cons:
-Spell Snarable
-On board removal such as Qasali Pridemage/Seals/EE is bad for it
-Can benefit your opponent
-Greater chance of running across decks that are also built to use it

Ancestral Vision

Pros:
-Amazing if suspended early
-Low mana investment
-Doesn't tend to grow Tarmogoyf

Cons:
-Slow!
-Counterbalance + Top = Sad Times
-Chalice @ 0

Stifle is indeed a con. Which makes AV a lot worse since:

-Can benefit your opponent (Hardly comes forward)
-On board removal such as Qasali Pridemage/Seals/EE is bad for it (another weird flaw, since you can simply remove the cards before playing standstill. Since you only play standstill if you got a positive board or you want to stretch the game (which is always good for a deck like Landstill or UW (Ultimate Walker).
Spell snare is a con and that other decks are better designed to use Standstill is another con however the cons of AV are much worse than that. Trust me.

The pro's of AV are also vague. -Low mana investment it only costs 1 mana less, which isnt such a big deal since you dont want to play standstill turn 2 or only if nothing have happened on the board which isn't the case like 80% of the time.
If you play standstill at turn 4, you will get as fast cards as AV. AV is only amazing when suspended at turn 1, after that it just becomes a U, wait 4 turns, hope you survive, gather your counters (against U decks) and hope it resolves.
For a deck as Landstill the one power more Tarmogoyf does not make any difference when played:
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Wrath of God
1 Humility
3 Engineered Explosives

Atleast, this is my removal.

Standstill has so much more effect on the game against any other deck than Vial-decks than AV that it is worth playing Standstill instead of AV. Trust me.

[Cenarius]

On the other hand, Daze is almost virtually ineffective against Vision as well.

For me, not all of the pros/cons have the same weight.

I like Vision because:

1) It's not played much in Legacy, so people have less experience dealing with it.

2) Standstill, seeing more play, does suffer from dealing with other decks built around it.

3) I like that with AV, you never (barring the odd Misdirect) risk helping your opponent with it.

It also gives you another potential T1 play.

1) Random. People only need to read it once (probably already heard from it) and need to gather counters for 4! turns.

2) It only suffers from 2 decks, it owns the rest (except maybe other control)

3) The misdirect only happens when you made a mistake or if your opponent is having the nuts. Both will not occur more than 1-3% of all games played.

[Jak]

Got some questions for you:

Why 2 Academy Ruins?
Why do you think Firespout + Helix is better than any other removal? For example: Wrath of God/Humilty/Moat?
Why do you think Compulsive Research is better than Jace Beleren? It says 1UU Draw a card, Then prevent damage or draw another card in your next turn.
Why do you think Ancestral Vision is better than Standstill? Maybe a bit weird question but I personally prefer the effect Standstill has over the game.

In case one gets destroyed. It is such a powerhouse and if you run into Wasteland or another Ruins, having the second is nice. I also don't have Crucible in that list.

Cheaper. 4cc is clunky as hell with the Planeswalkers and having faster answers is better.

Gets answers now than waiting for them.

Honestly, I still prefer Standstill. That's why I would rather play Walkerstill than this. AV is pretty slow and as I said, I would rather draw my cards now than later. It is also weaker to a lot of cards being played heavily in the format.

[Esper3k]

Cenarius - I'm not sure why you asked about AV in the first place if you were already set on Standstill being better?

For me, I think it's interesting enough that it's worth testing and playing with. I think straight up, Standstill is a better card - but in the Legacy metagame, it may not hold to be true.

Decks that play Spell Snare (Canadian Thresh always seems to be around), decks that run Aether Vial (Merfolk), or use Standstill themselves (Dreadstill, Landstill) lessen the effectiveness of Standstill.

Oh, another reason I can see people playing AV (at least in this deck) is because Tolaria West seems to be a popular card for the deck.

[Cenarius]

Cenarius - I'm not sure why you asked about AV in the first place if you were already set on Standstill being better?

For me, I think it's interesting enough that it's worth testing and playing with. I think straight up, Standstill is a better card - but in the Legacy metagame, it may not hold to be true.

Decks that play Spell Snare (Canadian Thresh always seems to be around), decks that run Aether Vial (Merfolk), or use Standstill themselves (Dreadstill, Landstill) lessen the effectiveness of Standstill.

Oh, another reason I can see people playing AV (at least in this deck) is because Tolaria West seems to be a popular card for the deck.

Well I'm convinced that Standstill is better than AV for me because of the way I play the deck, I guess. I just wanted to open the discussion since there seemed to be no discussion going on.
Tolaria West --> AV will cost 4 mana and 4 turns to get 3 cards. Legacy is a fast format, maybe too fast for a card like this.
I played Faeries in Extended (with AV) and I know that sometimes it is awesome (when suspended at turn 1) but I already felt that AV was even too slow for the extended metagame either. AV has no effect on the game since it is just a wait 4 turns - draw 3 cards card.
Standstill does have an effect on the state of the board. Since it will either slow the board down or gives you 3 cards which is pretty awesome for 2 man, isn't it?
I know that Dreadstill, Merfolk and Landstill (in certain amounts) plays standstill but Dreadstill is already a positive/good matchup. Landstill is a good matchup I suppose since you play 6 planeswalkers (with Ajani just being broken) and Merfolk (when playing wog and especially Moat shouldn't be a big problem aswell, although it is not a good or very positive matchup ofcourse).
I'm a Tempo Threshold player aswell (playing it for a long time now) and the threath of Spell Snare can just be ignored. You can always say that you shouldn't play a card because there's a answer to it. Why do people play goyf when people play Swords to Plowshares? Because Tarmogoyf is the best creature in the metagame. Why do people play Standstill when people play Spell Snare? Because Standstill is far more superior than AV.

This is my current list:

2 Ajani Vengeant
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant
2 Jace Beleren

1 Eternal Dragon
1 Decree of Justice

4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell

4 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Cunning wish

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Wrath of God
1 Moat

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau
2 Island
2 Plains
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Academy Ruins
1 Dust Bowl

[rsaunder]

It's amazing how nearly identical that list is to everything going on in the UWx landstill thread...