[Deck] The EPIC Elf Survival

[beastman]

Theres another thread for that one quack, it's called elves! and it sucks. Why did you decide to cut the dominant, and possibly best card in the deck?

[Di]

That was my idea, and his list is based off the concept I pitched to him of shifting the deck to pure aggro with disruption. My reasoning behind this is that I feel the Survival engine doesn't do enough against the bad matchups the deck has as it is slow, resource intensive, and vulnerable, not to mention can lead to inconsistent draws/mulligans/topdecks. I mentioned this in my last post on the previous page, although I'm assuming nobody noticed it.

In taking this approach (and nothing's definate here, it's just something I'm testing), the deck has more consistent draws, a more explosive draw engine, and the ability to hinder the opponent's gameplan enough to stop them from shutting you down. Basically, I don't see cutting Survival as an issue with decreasing any of our positive matchup percentages. We still can just as easily run over Merfolk, Goblins, Threshold, etc, but this list trades that tutor power with the ability to hurt opposing manabases with Wasteland (Landstill and Tempo Thresh come to mind), and hit key spells so you can force through your bombs (Therapy on WoG, FoW, Devastating Dreams, Counterbalance, etc). Running Cabal Therapy in a deck with 30 creatures, not to mention one that makes tokens, is insane. It also gives the deck at least a chance at winning the combo match. It's simply an idea worth looking into, because I really dislike the fact that the deck is absolutely helpless against problematic spells.

Here's the initial draft I've been working on:

4 Natural Order
1 Progenitus
4 Cabal Therapy

4 Llanowar Elves
3 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Priest of Titania
3 Quirion Ranger
4 Imperious Perfect
4 Elvish Archdruid
4 Elvish Champion
4 Sylvan Messenger
3 Wirewood Symbiote

4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
3 Wasteland
4 Forest

Basically, it just substitutes the Survival engine for a pure Sylvan Messenger + Wirewood Symbiote engine. I personally like this more right now because I'm able to see a lot of creatures and play them out faster than with a SotF engine, and Wirewood Symbiote is very strong for the deck atm as it takes a bullet for the lords as it fights against removal. If it stays, then Messenger will go bonkers. I like Wasteland a lot in here as you're basically guaranteed a turn 1 play, and there is very little tempo loss to you as you're always ahead on acceleration. I'm only running 3 currently due to occasionally opening hands without a green source, but I may go up to 4 if I bump the land count to 19. Otherwise, the deck has been performing really well. The control matchups have significantly improved as I've been able to quickly play out 3-4 creatures and Wasteland to buy enough time to prevent a sweeper, and Therapy has been golden against virtually every deck. Plus in a pinch it can at least discard your own Progenitus. The white is still for sideboard only, as the deck can't afford to not run Absolute Law in this metagame; it's too damn good against red. The only issue with this build is that it's a bit more vulnerable to Wasteland and Moon effects, although I don't feel that's a problem given the deck runs such a high amount of acceleration and a trio of Quirion Rangers.

Now technically this build doesn't belong in this thread so I won't really discuss it in here, but I think it was worth mentioning as it's something worth looking at for the deck to continue to compete in the metagame.

[beastman]

Why not run the ME combo? It wouldn't be too hard to get with the messengers.

[Kuma]

Wirewood Herald + Cabal Therapy was absolutely nuts in Crystalline Elves (remember that deck?).

It's probably at least worth a test in here if we go the Cabal Therapy route.

[Fons]

Wirewood Herald + Cabal Therapy was absolutely nuts in Crystalline Elves (remember that deck?).

It's probably at least worth a test in here if we go the Cabal Therapy route.

This seems like a pretty great idea. It might actually make g1 vs combo winnable.

[Di]

Why not run the ME combo? It wouldn't be too hard to get with the messengers.

The original list has them but I cut them as they were inconsistent. If I was able to assemble the combo then I was going to win anyway because I'd go through enough of the deck already, and other times I would've preferred a lord in their place to beef the rest of the team. It isn't bad, but without the tutoring power I just didn't like it. It just felt like win more, plus it was occasionally difficult fetching for black and white, but that's nitpicking. It could find it's place in the deck again, maybe over a lord, but I don't think I'd run more than 1, as there's no space for a 2nd.

Wirewood Herald + Cabal Therapy was absolutely nuts in Crystalline Elves (remember that deck?).

It's probably at least worth a test in here if we go the Cabal Therapy route.

That combo is nuts, I agree, but Herald is far too weak on its own. Without the ability to add mana, pump guys, or anything else significant on its own I can't really warrant the spot. It's a poor topdeck, and that was one of the main reasons I cut the SotF engine in the first place.

[arebennian]

That combo is nuts, I agree, but Herald is far too weak on its own.

On it's own, it's insurance against a sweeper. If it eats 'removed from the game' removal prior to damaged based removal, it is one less pointed at a Lord (which they also have to find an answer) (although you could argue another lord would be just as effective).

[Kuma]

That combo is nuts, I agree, but Herald is far too weak on its own. Without the ability to add mana, pump guys, or anything else significant on its own I can't really warrant the spot. It's a poor topdeck, and that was one of the main reasons I cut the SotF engine in the first place.

I think you're undervaluing Wirewood Herald. He's fantastic against anything that runs sweepers or makes significant use of the combat phase, as well as with Cabal Therapy. As for being a poor topdeck, he's not a poor topdeck if you have a Therapy in hand or the yard or against either of the above deck archetypes.

If your opponent Deeds, Firespouts, cracks EE, etc. you search for Caller of the Claw and win.

Chump-blocking goyf and getting an Eyeblight's Ending or Lord/Messenger is excellent as well.

Versus most decks in the format he's at worst half of a two-card combo.

[lorddotm]

I think you're undervaluing Wirewood Herald. He's fantastic against anything that runs sweepers or makes significant use of the combat phase, as well as with Cabal Therapy. As for being a poor topdeck, he's not a poor topdeck if you have a Therapy in hand or the yard or against either of the above deck archetypes.

If your opponent Deeds, Firespouts, cracks EE, etc. you search for Caller of the Claw and win.

Chump-blocking goyf and getting an Eyeblight's Ending or Lord/Messenger is excellent as well.

Versus most decks in the format he's at worst half of a two-card combo.

I really like the idea of Eyeblight's Ending in this deck. Also, why not try Thoughtseize in here as well?

[Shawon]

Since we're bringing up anti-sweeper tech, how do you guys evaluate Prowess of the Fair? playable? testable?

[sunshine]

list

I agree that cutting Survival is likely the right direction to take this deck. It seems that you're generating an awful lot of mana though with not much to do with it. I haven't tested this particular list but my other concern is that the number of "must counters" drops too low by cutting both Goyf and Survival, it might be that 12 lords plus the discard is enough to punch through spells (NO) when you need to though. I'm not such a huge fan of the card but maybe Staff of Domination has a place somewhere between the board and main.

[Esper3k]

Since we're bringing up anti-sweeper tech, how do you guys evaluate Prowess of the Fair? playable? testable?

I think Prowess is definitely worth testing.

I've always wanted to make guys like the Elvish Vanguard and Titania's Chosen work. My old casual elf deck was those guys and just more elves to permanently grow them. Hm... gives me some thoughts!

[arebennian]

Vanguard requires you to play elves in order to pump him. He also must be played before said elves. If you are committing elves to the board in vast numbers you are better off pumping all of them rather than one with a target on it's head saying 'Swords ME' or 'Block ME'.

[Di]

I think you're undervaluing Wirewood Herald. He's fantastic against anything that runs sweepers or makes significant use of the combat phase, as well as with Cabal Therapy. As for being a poor topdeck, he's not a poor topdeck if you have a Therapy in hand or the yard or against either of the above deck archetypes.

If your opponent Deeds, Firespouts, cracks EE, etc. you search for Caller of the Claw and win.

Chump-blocking goyf and getting an Eyeblight's Ending or Lord/Messenger is excellent as well.

Versus most decks in the format he's at worst half of a two-card combo.

I'm well aware of Wirewood Herald's potential and nifty abilities; prior to designing the current Elf Survival build my precurser was the Crystalline Elves deck (there's a slight history in the opening post on this), so I'm experienced in playing with the card. I cannot deny its usefulness in fighting sweepers, stalling blockers, synergy with Cabal Therapy, and essential free damage should the opponent not want to block and give me a Sylvan Messenger or lord.

However, Herald doesn't fit the playstyle of the deck, not to mention his weakness on its own. The design of this deck is to be very aggressive and be able to rush out. The main reason I'm shifting the design of TEES is because I think I may have had a flawed theory on building the deck in the first place, and it's taken me until recently seeing the success of other tribal decks to realize this. When I had initially built the deck it was a standard Elf Aggro list, but I noticed the potential brokenness it had with Anger involved, and that put the deck's design in a 180 degree turn. And, come nearly a year later, I've come to realize the deck's weaknesses were directly correlated with that engine. Basically, SotF can't just be thrown in a deck; it needs to be built around it. Because of this, the deck lost a lot of speed and aggressiveness, which is an inherant problem because we're A.) a creature-based deck and B.) a pure aggro deck. Removing the SotF engine and its affiliated cards (To be exact it was 4 Survival, 1 Anger, 1 Squee, 1 Wren's Run Packmaster, 1 Viridian Zealot, and 3-4 Tarmogoyf) allows the deck to have a primary synergistic focus and be able to implement that strategy a lot better, which is, given the nature of this tribe, balls-to-the-wall aggro. And it's gotten a lot better because of this.

That said, Herald really doesn't fit. Again, I won't argue for its usefulness, but it doesn't do a good job at fulfilling the role that we need our slots to do. There is already a resoundingly high number of weak creatures in the deck (17, nearly 1/3 of the deck) and adding more that have a situational ability can potentially be disasterous getting stuck with weak creatures over stronger ones, as stronger creatures would need to be cut in favor of Herald. The deck needs to be able to unconditionally be able to play out everything it can and beat the hell out of the opponent. Playing a 1G 1/1 that doesn't provide any immediate benefits really doesn't help the strategy of the deck, sadly, given how good of an ability it has.

I really like the idea of Eyeblight's Ending in this deck. Also, why not try Thoughtseize in here as well?

Both weren't included for lack of space. Eyeblight's Ending is awesome, really, but there's certain criteria we need to keep in order to preserve the consistency of the deck (X lords, X accelerants, X lands etc). If it were possible for me to fit it then I'd like to, however, I'm confident enough against decks winning with creatures that the deck is more than capable of just flat out running through them, or at least forestwalking through.

Thoughtseize is something i've been trying to fit in since I've been testing this approach but I can't find the space. However, I'm wary regardless because I'm trying to keep the elf count as high as I can to abuse Sylvan Messenger while still being able to keep all the other required non-elf components intact.

Since we're bringing up anti-sweeper tech, how do you guys evaluate Prowess of the Fair? playable? testable?

That's an interesting card, and I've never seen it prior to this mentioning. However, if there's going to be any anti-sweeper cards played, the most likely of them is either Caller of the Claw or Patriarch's Bidding.

I agree that cutting Survival is likely the right direction to take this deck. It seems that you're generating an awful lot of mana though with not much to do with it. I haven't tested this particular list but my other concern is that the number of "must counters" drops too low by cutting both Goyf and Survival, it might be that 12 lords plus the discard is enough to punch through spells (NO) when you need to though. I'm not such a huge fan of the card but maybe Staff of Domination has a place somewhere between the board and main.

The excess mana isn't necessarily true at all. If you cast Sylvan Messenger, you're almost always going to want to have mana open to cast out all the cards you draw, especially if you're able to keep chaining them. I've had plenty of games that feature a turn 2 Priest or Archdruid into turn 3 Symbiote and Messenger and the ability to play Messenger twice and then run out 3-4 lords at the same time. Having excessive mana is precious in this deck because it's incredibly mana hungry once it gets the draw engine going.

Also, I've actually found the number of must counters to stay close, if not go up in this build. Previously, there were the following based on my last list:

4 SotF
4 Natural Order
11 lords
3 Tarmogoyf (maybe Wren's Run Vanquisher, or Sylvan Messenger for some)
4 Priest of Titania (occasionally. People don't like this getting a chance to tap on turn 3, so it has a target on its head)

That's 26. However, some builds had both Goyf and Messenger, or Vanquisher too, so I'll just bump it to 28 for average's sake.

This list has:

4 Natural Order
12 lords
4 Sylvan Messenger
3 Wirewood Symbiote (occasional. If Messenger has already resolved, yes. If they're in need of removal, probably)
4 Priest of Titania (occasional, see above)

27, but because Symbiote is also occasional, I'll put it down to 25. However, it has 4 Cabal Therapy, which can hit multiple counters (and removal as well) , so factoring that in, there's a higher number of bombs in the new list. Although I don't really place any measure in the comparison of the number of bombs against control decks, but rather the ability to resolve them, which the Therapy version has a much higher chance of doing.

[beastman]

I would be more happy than you can imagine if we fit patriarch's bidding in here. I'm going to test the shit out of that card.

[Radiant]

I don't think you have access to 5 mana right after a sweeper. Bidding is only good if you choose who and when it dies.
Oversold Cemetery would be another option, as it constantly provides you elf cards from your gy, but it may be too slow.

[Teumie]

hmm, interesting, I will surely test this build out ...
One point i made earlier is that with the new lord, i often got a large amount of mana but no real 'dumps' to put it into (i.e. when in topdecking mode with survival in play, you can only play 1 or 2 creatures per turn) whereas in this build it is possible to go really nuts with the messengers ...

since you've cut all sorts of 'utility' critters, i guess you have to use the discard to preventively remove these cards?

Any sideboard information?

There is a rather large tourney at the 20th of september. Obviously I want to play elfs, i'm just wondering about following matchups:
- merfolk (gonne be a lot of those)
- surviving bant
- combo

I guess the first two should be manageable? did the take out of survival improve those matchups?

Thanks!

[Esper3k]

Check it out guys - our own Planeswalker!

Nissa Revane
2GG
+1: Search your library for a card named Nissa's Chosen and put it onto the battlefield. Then shuffle your library.
+1: Gain 2 life for each Elf you control.
-7: Search your library for any number of Elf creature cards and put them into the battlefield. Then shuffle your library.

Starts with 2 Loyalty.

Also:

Nissa's Chosen
GG
Elf Warrior
If Nissa's Chosen would be put into a graveyard from the battlefield, put it on the bottom of its owner's library instead.
2/3

[TheBirdMan]

Its not enough for legacy but I would like to enjoy playing her in extended and t2?

[Atwa]

That seems awefull. Now I'm not discarding any ideas before testing it, but this combo eats up 5 slots in an already pretty tight list, 4 of which do really nothing for the deck (I mean a 2/3 for 2, I'd rather play a Goyf) and the plainwalker takes up 5 activations before you can use her ultimate.

Which means you can activate her ultimate at turn 8 as soonest (7 if you play a list with ESG's), at that time you should have already won. Besides, costing 4 puts her on the same cmc as Sylvan Messenger and Natural Order, hell I don't think she would even make the cut if she costs 3.

Then there is the Loyaly of 2, which means the dies to almost any decent burn spell in the game. It's a cute card, very nice for casual games (or even standard), but way too slow and weak for competive Legacy.