I've been using nyxathid since it came out, usually in place of phyrexian negators. I've always loved them because when one comes down, it always makes the opponent groan and they usually end the game quickly. I've had very few instances where I wasn't happy to see one.
You know, as long as you're running Nyxathids, I've been running Pox in my sui/Eva decks and loving it. You'd have to be careful then to not let your curve get too top-heavy though. For instance, the Eva deck I usually use goes
4 Goyf
4 Bob
4 Tombstalker
3 or 4 Hyppie
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Pox
4 Dark Ritual
2 Jitte
2 Sensei's Divining Top
with the last three slots vacillating between Maelstrom Pulse, Snuff Out, and Unmask depending on the meta. I think if you started with that list, dropping Goyf for Nyxathid should be okay as long as those last couple slots are free spells (I think I like Snuff Out best in mono-black, though that's purely taste). With Pox in the list, plus all the discard and six fetches and four Wastelands, I almost always get my first Stalker forand I've played three in a game before.
Pox also really helps keep your opponent's hand low or empty, so Nyxathid should be hitting for 5 or 6 every time you swing with it.
Not that I'm LSV or anything, but I like this idea and haven't seen anyone else mention it yet.
Originally Posted by herbig
Coraz, Phyrexian Arena looks like better choice in that list than Bob, given all the 3 and 4 drops, not to mention 4 Tombstalkers. Its an interesting approach though.
I'd actually say the opposite is true, since hippy, jitte, and pox are going to be competing for mana around turns 3-5. I wouldn't add phyrexian arena into the mix. You have a legitimate concern considering the added lifeloss of Pox and Snuff Out, but I've never liked Phyrexian Arena in aggro decks. It's way too slow and the game usually doesn't last long enough for it to make a positive difference. I'd rather have more lifeloss with the additional card advantage and creature in Bob.
What are everybody's thoughts on some of the spoiled Zendikar creatures for Sui Black? Specifically:
Bloodghast BB
Creature - Vampire Spirit
Bloodghast can't block.
Bloodghast has haste as long as an opponent has 10 life or less.
Landfall - Whenever a land enters the battlefield under your control, you may return Bloodghast from your graveyard to the battlefield.
2/1
Gatekeeper of Malakir BB
Creature - Vampire Warrior
Kicker B (You may pay an additional B as you cast this spell.)
When Gatekeeper of Malakir enters the battlefield, if it was kicked, target player sacrifices a creature.
2/2
Vampire Lacerator B
Creature - Vampire Warrior
At the beginning of your upkeep, you lose 1 life unless an opponent has 10 or less life.
2/2
Vampire Nighthawk 1BB
Creature - Vampire Shaman
Flying
Deathtouch
Lifelink
2/3
Gatekeeper is the only one that seems playable. Everything else seems like a slightly different version of an already available card (Lacerator -> Carnophage) that don't see any play.
Personally, I am kinda interested in the gatekeeper as a means of pulling double duty. This is what I am currently running:
3x Polluted Delta (Only own 3/don't own any Mires)
4x Wasteland
14x Swamp
4x Nantuko Shade
4x Dark Confidant
4x Hypnotic Specter
3x Tombstalker
2x Stillmoon Cavalier
4x Dark Ritual
4x Thoughtseize
4x Smother
4x Hymn to Tourach
2x Diabolic Edict
2x Sensei's Divining Top
2x Umezawa's Jitte
My thoughts are that I could switch out the two edicts for two gatekeepers. While edict is an instant, there are definitely times when it is just a dead card: gatekeeper can always be a 2/2 beater that can wear equipment. I feel that the versatility of gatekeeper will make it more worthwhile. I am curious what other people think though.
I think Edict being an instant is very valuable. An Edict with a 2/2 body has its advantages though.
The Source: Your Source for "The Source: Your Source for..." cliche.
I am honestly interested in testing Vampire Nighthawk in the deck because of its evasion, 2/3 body, and it work on offense and defense with the lifelink/deathtouch. It can intercept and take down Tombstalkers and Goyfs, survives some goblins, and can get back some of the lide you lose from Confidant.
What do you plan to use the nighthawk as a replacement for?
I think Gatekeeper of Malakir is a sick card and is going to fly under the radar for this deck.
I mean, kill a creature and drop a 2/2 body for three mana? Doesn't care if something is black? Only problem is that it costs two, so it gets hit easy with lots of counter magic.
Though, it can hit shrouded creatures like Goose and can also kill Progenitus.
Has anyone tested Gatekeeper of Malakir in this deck? Seems like a excellent tempo card.
I tested gatekeeper and vampire nighthawk and they are both good.
Only problem with gatekeeper is topdecking one when you don't need a creature killer spell and it's just 2/2 body but it works fine.
The nighthawk is a little slow but lifelink+deathtouch+evasive are very impressive vs many decks.
Here my list:
10 swamp
7 black fetchland
4 wasteland
4 dark ritual
4 snuff out
4 thoughtseize
4 hymn to tourach
4 sinkhole
4 nantuko shade
4 tombstalker
4 hypnotic specter
4 gatekeeper of malakir
3 vampir nighthawk
More creatures than usual but gatekeeper works as removal
Fire walk with me.
Likewise I tested in malakir and nighthawk and was pleased with results.
My current list:
MANA
18x Swamp
4x Dark Ritual
3x Lotus Petal
DISCARD
4x Thoughseize
3x Duress
4x Hymn to Tourach
CREATURES/REMOVAL
3x Gatekeeper of Malakir
3x Vampire Nighthawk
3x Shriekmaw
CREATURES
4x Dark Confidant
4x Hypnotic Specter
3x Nantuko Shade
4x Bitterblossom
Suicide black can focus more on control or tempo/aggro. I chose to go the control route. This is why several standard cards are missing. Sinkhole, Wasteland, and Tombstalker are the most notable. Great cards, but are better suited in a deck which disrupts the opponents turn 1-2 and lays down a fatty (Tombstalker or Tarmogoyf). Eva Green or Red Death are much better decks if that's the route you want to take.
Instead, I'm opting for a slower control route with a deck directed towards producing card advantage. Or at the very least giving you greater card quality (like Thoughtseize and Duress). The only card which doesn't fit this is Nantuko Shade - which is simply your late game win.
I've also included the additional mana acceleration of lotus petal. Like a first turn hyppie, a first turn confidant or bitterblossom are plays that can be game breaking. The other strong option is a first turn thoughtseize or duress followed by any of those plays.
I find that this deck is considerably better against aggro-control than most sui variants. Combo tends to be better than decks like Eva Green because of the high discard count, the extra acceleration to a hyppie, and confidant providing more of both. Control matches depend greatly on the deck your against. Aggro is always the rough part. Unlike aggro oriented suicide decks, it's foolish to ever try to race. No Tombstalker, Goyf, or Negator means it's not an option. Your higher creature count is a plus, but I don't know yet if this just means a more pro-longed death, or if this actually translates to more of a fighting chance. Having large amounts of removal is very helpful in these scenarios. But the life loss of confidant, thoughtseize, and bitterblossom makes any burn a problem. On the flip side... I'm not running sac-lands or Tombstalker with my Confidants to exacerbate the problem.
I have been playing Sui Black for while now and I think I've perfected the decklist. You'd be a fool not to run Gatekeeper, he's the best part of the deck now. You can even Vorath's him back to kill everything.
I've been having some problems with goblins and burn. Any Ideas?
// Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
16 [UNH] Swamp
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
// Creatures
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [B] Hypnotic Specter
4 [TO] Nantuko Shade
4 [ZEN] Gatekeeper of Malakir
// Spells
4 [TE] Diabolic Edict
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (2)
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [B] Dark Ritual
3 [US] Duress
4 [B] Sinkhole
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 4 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
I would remove the 3 maindeck duresses and put 2-3 jittes in the main. They are very good against goblins. Then maybe add the new nighthawk (for the burn matchup-not great, but the lifelink is fabulous helps, plus if they kill it then that is one less burn spell going to your dome), or maybe infest for goblins, or just plain old dystopia to the spots opened in the sideboard. I know duress is good, but quite often it can become a dead card in the late game when your opponent doesn't have any cards in hand.
In my opinion, Duress is strong not just for the effect, but also because it helps the mana curve. otherwise there are 8 turn 1 plays, 4 of which are Dark Ritual. That's no good.
Duress is one of the weaker cards here. But I'd consider your deck as a whole. Against burn and goblins, how important and Sinkhole and Wasteland? I don't think they're particularly valuable. In most builds they're used as a tempo boost. But in this deck, you don't have Tombstalker, Goyf, or Negator. Your strongest creature is a shade. What on earth do you need the tempo for. They're poor cards for controlling aggro decks. If that's your problem, sideline the Sinkholes and bring in Jittes.
Nighthawk is also great as Damnosus said.
Welcome back, I hope you don't mind me responding to this in the thread, I think, it will receive the best feedback in.
Your deck looks solid to a point. Negator is a great card but there is just so much that makes him worse for you now days (zoo is coming back so bolting him becomes a fear again). Most people have started to play things that are either just as good as negator was without the drawback (tombstalker). It does save 5 life to Bob though.
I agree with the Bitter Blossoms (BB) as well. I thought that they would have a stronger showing but they don't always get there alone and the life you're going to lose from Thoughtseize, Bob, and BB can start to add up quick. Umezawa's Jitte could be a way to answer that problem.
Jitte is amazing in this deck. It acts as removal, life, and creature protection, once it's active. I played a little Eva Green and Jitte saved my Hippie from getting burned down vs 2 burn players. could not have been happier.
Since you're just getting back in I would actually suggest Bloodghast in place of the Negator. He may not block (then again, neither does Negator) but he recurs and is easier to cast. It may not have haste all the time but it's definitely worth it. Especially with Jitte.
These are just the idea's that I would have to mod this deck... I do like the list though (just changing maybe 2 or 3 cards and some of their counts.
Welcome back, I hope you don't mind me responding to this in the thread, I think, it will receive the best feedback in.
Your deck looks solid to a point. Negator is a great card but there is just so much that makes him worse for you now days (zoo is coming back so bolting him becomes a fear again). Most people have started to play things that are either just as good as negator was without the drawback (tombstalker). It does save 5 life to Bob though.
I agree with the Bitter Blossoms (BB) as well. I thought that they would have a stronger showing but they don't always get there alone and the life you're going to lose from Thoughtseize, Bob, and BB can start to add up quick. Umezawa's Jitte could be a way to answer that problem.
Jitte is amazing in this deck. It acts as removal, life, and creature protection, once it's active. I played a little Eva Green and Jitte saved my Hippie from getting burned down vs 2 burn players. could not have been happier.
Since you're just getting back in I would actually suggest Bloodghast in place of the Negator. He may not block (then again, neither does Negator) but he recurs and is easier to cast. It may not have haste all the time but it's definitely worth it. Especially with Jitte.
These are just the idea's that I would have to mod this deck... I do like the list though (just changing maybe 2 or 3 cards and some of their counts.
I am building Mono-black deck for Legacy and any advice is welcome.
I reckon I need a pack of disrupt (discard & removal) + finishers.
What are the best options and do you recommend going on more aggro or more control style? Also manabase advice is welcome
Here is my list right now (Needs to be cutted to 60cards):
Lands:
Xx Swamps
1x Cabal Coffers
4x Wasteland
+ 4x Dark Ritual
Discard&Removal
4x Duress
4x Thoughtseize
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Unmask
4x Smother
4x Cabal Therapy (any use? sb maybe?)
Creatures
4x Gatekeeper of Malakir
4x Vampire Nighthawk
4x Nyxathid
4x Hypnotic Specter
4x Ashenmoor Couger
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