[DTW] Bant Survival

[sco0ter]

Maybe its my lack of the german language there.

Since I am bored...

Viele Stunden testen später war dann klar : Spellstutter sind in dem Deck so unfassbar schlecht. Wie schon oben geschrieben passt sie aus mehreren Gründen nicht ins Deck.

Mit damals 18 Ländern im Deck hatte man nie Mana für sie offen. Wenn man sich Mana offen gehalten hat, hat man dem Gegner in der wenig aggressiven Version ohne Vial viel Zeit geschenkt. So konnte man seltenst den Aggroplan auspacken.

Im Lategame auf der anderen Hand, mit Survival draußen wollte man sie eigentlich nie rausholen. Selbst wenn man sich mit nem StP konfrontiert sah ... da kann ich auch einfach noch nen Goofy holen und mein Leben auffüllen. Alternativ macht Kira den gleichen Job, nur besser.

Topdeck sind sie fast schlechter als Vial. 1/1 Flieger sind in nem Deck mit Wonder im Grave und Pridemage/Monk/Goofy/Rafiq nicht wirklich mächtig.

Gedient haben sie eigentlich nur als tutorbaren Forcepitch. Den Part haben sie auch oft und gut erfüllt, aber das fühlte sich irgendwie suboptimal an.

==
Short version:

Spellstutter Sprite are so unbelievable bad, because:
- With only 18 lands, you have never mana for her and if you kept mana open you would give your opponent much time to develop and you'd have to play the defensive role (in the version with Vial).
- Lategame it is bad. Only good to counter StP. Kira does the same job here. Or life from StP is as good, too.
- Bad top deck (nearly worse than Vial)
- only useable as tutorable Forcepitch

[Waikiki]

Well I've seen to play sprite way different. mostly I resolve a thread and then start using sprite as a defense for the goyf or war monk. Its all about good timing and knowwing what role you are in. Also its evasive move + exalted is really strong.

[XiaN]

Edit : Ok, here is the long version ^^

Also its evasive move + exalted is really strong.

We have wonder, so additional RWMs and Pridemages have evasion too.

You seem to be strongly against the sprites. They have won me soo many games. Maybe its the difference in meta you play but sprite has been nothing but amazing to me. I do not seem a real reasoning, just you saying its awfull. Maybe its my lack of the german language there.

Yeah, somehow i personally don't like them as "alone" 4/3 of. In faeries they are just ridiculous, because they are in face hardcounter. But hitting 1/2 cc ... hmm maybe i'm blinded or disorientated there, but here the thoughts behind my move away from the sprites.

-> Without Vial you need to keep mana open during the opponents / your turn to be able to use her. That anti syncs with the option to play the aggro deck in some matchups and buy's your opponent a lot of time. And this is somehow crucial if you play against good control decks, because Sprite wouldn't hit anything ether if they established control. So you want to play early beaters and keep mana open to protect them ... hm well that doesn't work without vial.

-> From the view of creature power she is the weakest part in our chain. 1/1 flying is not very impressive even with exhalted. She is in my view a even worst topdeck compared to vial in nearly every stage of the game. In the early game you don't have the mana for her, in the midgame you want to either stabilize your control ( ok she helps here ) or aggro ( no mana for her ) position. In the lategame she won't hit a spell without the support of more faeries in play.

-> I admit she is a tutorable force pitch. She took that part very good, but honestly you can play more Warmonks or Cliques if you need a tutorable force pitch. The only difference is, that you don't regret to remove the dead sprite :)

-> Finally the reason i removed her : I don't see the point in protecting your Goyf with a 2 mana only-sometimes-counter if you could only tutor and play another Gofy. You see, if you have a critter in play ( RWM, Goyf, Clique ) and a Sprite in your hand and the enemy attemps a STP .... then why not only take the life and play another critter? And on the other hand, this critter is a much better topdeck, you don't need mana open for him during an opponents turn, it pitches to FoW and fears your opponent ( more RWM :D ).

And if you want to protect you're creatures from spot removal simply play more Kira's. She does the same job, but you don't need to pay the "Keep 2 mana open" upkeep cost and she is better on its own.

I have to admit, that in some MU and situations Sprite is really good, but overall ( maybe thats a meta call for me ) it's a very situation related and bad counter.

You also keep saying we are using toolboxes. Well if youd see my latest list the only toolbox creatures are rafiq,squee,wonder and kira (which I cut)

Based on the lists in the spoiler there def. is a toolbox. Even if you only play 2 Pridemage/Warmonks that looks toolboxish. If you really want their power ( they both are meta game calls for my meta, because we have a lot of CB/Top and Zoos ) you would play at least 3 of both.

Also you seem wanting to do alot, CB + survival + NO. IMO its better to controll you focus at doing 1 thing very good instead of doing 3 things good to okay.

But whats the focus of the list in the primer? Being stuck somewhere between Aggro and Control? LSV wrote a very nice article about midrange decks lately and it kind of inspired me to change the list :D

On the latest tournaments, i didn't have the Natural Orders in ( Brainstorms instead ) and the coexistence of CB and SotF worked out really well. But like i wrote in the german post above, its definitely crucial to know, when to use what engine if you have both in play. I'n situations like that i allways focused more on the CB softlock and in ~50% of the games it was the wrong way. So its more a fail on the pilot, then on the deck :D

I think a straight CB top with order list seems better since its able to protect its bombs better.

Yeah sure, but i needed a "Opps you just lost out of nowhere" card and a way to tutor Rafiq up without SotF in play, because he is so often the MVP. And besides i allways wanted a tutorable land ever since i play that deck. So after i added these part ... hm yeah then Progenitus wasn't far away. AND he's a good Survival pitch.

[Waikiki]

You do not seem to understand the way this deck plays. This by far not a midrange deck. The role of the deck is to start aggro and follow up with a control peace called survival in the lategame. 2 war monk and 2 pridemage (+1 predator) isn't toobox its 2 maindeck lifegainers vs aggro and 3 answers to artifact enchantment maindeck. They are perfectly findable without survival. Dont look at survival as a toolbox engine but as a CA engine. A creature of your choice extra every turn.

Keeping mana open for sprite is almost never good if you got something relevant to cast, thats true. But after resolving a goyf and your board position is better then the position of the opponent I would not start and cast another thread untill he manages to deal with the goyf first. Thats the time sprite shines. It stops stp or cantrips searching for answers. if you got survival on top of that you could start chaining the faeries and win from there on.

LSV calls midrange decks decks unfocussed decks that do not have a purpose but simply have answers to the opponents thread. This deck tries only 1 route the creature route together with survival als late game bomb. I would call your deck more midrange then my version tbh. Trying to go CB top/ survival and NO. without any plan to back that up just try 1 of the 3 to work out. That seems more Midrange to me.

Tho Faeries are a personal flavor. I can agree if you do not like them in your playstyle.

[XiaN]

Dont look at survival as a toolbox engine but as a CA engine. A creature of your choice extra every turn.

Its exactly the way i'm looking at SotF. CA and not more

Thats the time sprite shines. It stops stp or cantrips searching for answers. if you got survival on top of that you could start chaining the faeries and win from there on.

But Kira does the same, only better. Ok, the faerie chain lightning is pretty solid, but only if the opponent first tries StP, then Terror, then Vindicate ... i hope you see the point. And you could simply chain him with more Gofy's.

I would call your deck more midrange then my version tbh. Trying to go CB top/ survival and NO. without any plan to back that up just try 1 of the 3 to work out. That seems more Midrange to me

Good point, touché and like a stated above, the list is under development . But i'm playing the deck the same way like you do. Try the creature route, SotF or NO as lategame bomb and protect the creatures with another ca-engine ( CB ). In most game you only counter keyspells or direct removal with the cb and you don't try to softlock him ( maybe if the board is def. in your favor ). I do not want to use CB as a softlock, but more like a recuring hardcounter for things like StP ...!

Maybe the Sprite is a personal flavor, but the intention of the post above was the argue about that point. Is she really needed or are there better options?

And please don't take it personal on YOUR list or YOUR playstyle. Its more meant as contribution to the overall development of Bant Survival.

[Waikiki]

Not taking it personal, Just trying to defend the choices I made :)
I've cut the faeries from my list aswell. Later on I started to miss them and add them back in. Afcorse the meta could ask you to use the slots differently. So far sprite has been very good for me. If I would replace them I would just add in some other beatstick (pridemages/RWM goose anything u'd like, just watch out for the blue count). The reason I wanting to drop kira because again its only good as a "toolbox" card something Id like to avoid. wanting to have cards also good that do not need tutorring.

I think the list you posted is just better of working as a NO thresh list so it will have more counters (fow) to protect its bombs.

[Jak]

Here is the list I developed over the past several month and which i'm currently playing with :

List

This of cause looks very different from the list currently discussed in this thread.

Here is a very long explanation ( but in german ) about some anti-synergies, suboptimal cardchoises and problems i had with the "official" list.

I'll try to convert it to english under the week, but i'm currently busy.

I don't like the current direction of the "official" lists ( no offense here ), but if you discuss to include Mongoose then the deck more and more looks like a suboptimal Thresh-build. You could simply replace the survival engine with Thresh-cards and run much better tournament results

Why do you write off Mongoose so quickly? Against Control, it is your best threat and it helps versus a turn one Lackey, which I feel is going to be a big problem again. In the late game, it gets bigger so it isn't a bad top deck. I really like the card. Will I survival for it often? No, but drawing it helps and if it is a bad card to have, then it gets pitched.

On Spellstutter Sprite. The card is good and bad, but I feel it is much, much better than Kira at protecting your threats. I think the problem you are having is knowing what role you are in. Sprite is bad against aggro (unless as a surprise blocker), but against control. you only need one threat. After you play your Goyf, leave mana open. It makes no sense to keep tapping out.

Now, to your list. I think you need to test it. You run no Force of Will which is needed to force down Survival, make sure your threats are protected, and in your case, get NO or Counterbalance to resolve. Your disruption comes online turn 2, which means combo has no trouble with you. I feel the deck already has a good control MU and a slightly better than even Counterbalance MU so running Counterbalance to strengthen those when Combo and Aggro are still difficult at times doesn't make sense to me.

NO is a good inclusion, but again, you are trying to do so many things in that list. You are trying to play Countertop, trying to win with NO, trying to play Survival, etc. Too much.

IMO, do this.

4 Windswept Heath
3 Flooded Strand
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
1 Tundra
2 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Dryad Arbor

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Qasali Pridemage
3 Rhox War Monk
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Trygon Predator
1 Eternal Witness
1 Rafiq of the Many
1 Progenitus

1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Wonder

4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Survival of the Fittest
3 Natural Order

Sideboard
3 Spell Snare
3 Krosan Grip
3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Meddling Mage
1 Genesis
1 Rhox War Monk
1 Kira, Great Glass Spinner
1 Faerie Macabre

[jeanbathez]

Last weekend i got my last 2 Noble Hierarchs, and now it was time to play my first tourney with Bant Survival. At first i would say : Thank you for developing this deck, it was fun to play, but it seems besides some big misplays by me i had some problems to play the deck correctly and i had problems with boarding, not what to bring in but what to take out in some games. So at first my list :

// Lands
1 [A] Tundra
4 [B] Tropical Island
2 [ON] Forest (1)
1 [10E] Plains (2)
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [U] Savannah

// Creatures
2 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
4 [LRW] Spellstutter Sprite
1 [MM] Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 [FNM] Wonder
1 [LRW] Sower of Temptation
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
2 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
1 [VI] Quirion Ranger
1 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [LRW] Ponder
4 [BD] Brainstorm
4 [4E] Swords to Plowshares
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
SB: 1 [JU] Genesis
SB: 3 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 [SHM] Faerie Maccabre

A very short report :
1. Round : 2:0 Ravager, there was no problem.

2. Round : 0:2 Canadian Thres : Game 1, he screwed me, Game 2 : I had him, but then i got too greedy, and forgot totally that canadian plays EE after SB, my Survival and goyfs ran into it, bad play, he then plays Mongoose, and i only found lands.......(Man that was a bad play by me !!).

3. Round : 0:2 : Soldiers : I was run over by, (you can't belief it : Soldiers), I didn't found 1 Sword in both games !!! And was attcked by 10/10 first strike soldiers, making even my goyfs small :-( Mistake i made : to make room i boarded out wonder, which was a big mistake, with her i would have been able to fly over for a win

4. Round : 2:0 Some strange sort of Team Amerca : No problems..

5. Round : 1:2 ANT : I had to make 1 mulligan in each game because of 4 or more lands, and him starting every game with duress...

So i'am not sure what to change, besides playing better ;-)
One problem i had : normally i play Gwb Survival Rock so sometimes i think i played the wrong game plan...

[Waikiki]

your decks seems fine by me. You could check out my decklist in the openingspost it worked great for me. Other then that yeah practice alot. This deck punish you really hard for making the wrong move. I had to found out the hard way myself. Nice to see you picking up the deck.

Maybe you could give a bit more insight on your sb plans so I can give advice on that.

[jeanbathez]

@Waikiki : Thanks, the deck is fun to play, but it seems it needs a lot of practice at least for me...I thought it would be easier after playing GWbr-Survival
My SB-plans from the top of my head :

Ravager : - Clique, -Sower +2 Krosan Grip

Canadian Thres : -Sower, -Pridemage + War Monk + Clique

Soldiers : -Clique - Wonder(Mistake!) + War Monk +1 Jitte (wasn't sure what to take out for the 2 other jittes, i didn't want to take out the spirtes, because he played swords and path to exile)

Strange TA : - Sower + Clique

ANT : - Sower -4 Swords (because i saw him didn't boarding anything so no confis came in) ; + War Monk, + 3 gaddock Teeg, + Clique

I wanted to add a spore frog for the Sb but didn't get any.

[Waikiki]

seems nothing wrong with your sideboard plan. I do see you boarding out the sower out everytime. Myself aren't even playing him maindeck anymore. Maybe you could do the same.

[jeanbathez]

Thanks, its good to know, that even my SB-plan works

I looked at your decklist at the first post, it had 18 lands, i play with 20 and had sometimes the feeling that were too much, not sure about that ?
Is that your present list at the first page ?

[Waikiki]

Yes thats the list I would take to an unknown meta. altho Id might drop the kira in favor of ponder #4 (wanting to try out nimble mongoose in the spell snare slot)

[jeanbathez]

Yes thats the list I would take to an unknown meta. altho Id might drop the kira in favor of ponder #4 (wanting to try out nimble mongoose in the spell snare slot)

Mongoose seems interesting (needs testing), but i saw you only play 3 sprites, don't you want to go up to 4 if you cut spell snare ?

@lands : I saw that Jak. and you both played only 18/19, was that enough, i'am not sure if 20 land aren't too much ?

[Waikiki]

unless you are in a meta with alot of wasteland or sinkhole action 18 will do just fine together with 4 hierarch and 7 cantrips.

Sprite isn't a card I want to see in my starting hand too often because it starts shining in after you put a thread on the table. 3 Has been enough for me.

[Jak]

Another thing to help you (jeanbathez) against aggro is Path to Exile. I have been loving them in so many MUs. Your list looks good, just play around with it some more :).

[jeanbathez]

Another thing to help you (jeanbathez) against aggro is Path to Exile. I have been loving them in so many MUs. Your list looks good, just play around with it some more :).

Thank you Jak. I also thought about Path to Exile, but atm i like Jitte more, but perhaps needs trying.
I think you are right i need to play more with that (updated) list , it plays different to Survival-Rock Variants...

[jeanbathez]

So played the deck last weekend, to a third place from 22.

My List :

// Lands
1 [A] Tundra
4 [B] Tropical Island
2 [ON] Forest (1)
1 [10E] Plains (2)
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
3 [U] Savannah

// Creatures
3 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
4 [LRW] Spellstutter Sprite
1 [MM] Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 [FNM] Wonder
1 [LRW] Sower of Temptation
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
2 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
1 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [LRW] Ponder
4 [BD] Brainstorm
4 [4E] Swords to Plowshares
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
SB: 1 [JU] Genesis
SB: 3 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Spore Frog
SB: 1 [SHM] Faerie Macabre



Round 1 Landstill : Game 1 i got him with a sprite which got the spell snare for my survival ;-), from there on i had no problem, game 2 humlity got me, game 3 he was screw, but sadly we went out if time. (1:1)

Round 2 Mono Blue : game 1 and 2, too much for him to handle... (2:0)

Round 3 : Eternal Garden : game 1 he wasted me away.., game 2 won by hierachs and some goyf beats, game 3 he was screw after a mulligan (with eternal garden !!) (2:1)

Runde 4 : Gbw Survival : Game 1 i was screw, but i didn't let him know i play survival, so game 2 was won by Faerie Macabre and stop his nightmare and destroy/counter the survivals.., game 3 spore frog lock, with beats in the air ;-)

Runde 5 : Canadian Thres : (If i could win this, i would come in 1. Place)

Game 1 i made a big mistake, we both had two goyfs out, and i had survival but few lands thanks to 3 wastelands by him in the early turns, so i thought take wonder and fly over, but i forgot that he wasted my tropical island.....
Game 2 won after drawing all my 4 forces, and betating down with pridemage, where were my BS, Ponder Survivals but 4 forces were als o.k. :-)

Game 3 going into extra turns, after him taking the wrong card with his clique, i had a chance after drawing my war monk of winning, but i was missing a few turns to beat him down, so only 3. Place..

So next time i hope that my opponents and i play faster, two times extras turns costing me the game....

[Jokemon]

How does Sower work for you, i myself play Gilded Drake and found him better, since protectiong Sower is a bitch.

[Waikiki]

Sower is better in a CB meta. (I dont play any md, 1 sower sb) Hardly ever feel the need in stealing a creature.

Congrats on your finish! Your playskills are improving since last tournament well done. Nice list.