[Deck] Zoo

[flrn]

I´ve read the last pages of this thread. Just to make sure i get this right. When you play KotR he gets powered up by the fetchlands you played before, right? You arent using his ability, nor a land tool box in your deck, right?

[Volt]

I´ve read the last pages of this thread. Just to make sure i get this right. When you play KotR he gets powered up by the fetchlands you played before, right? You arent using his ability, nor a land tool box in your deck, right?

She gets powered up by any lands that are in your graveyard for any reason. Obviously, playing a bunch of fetches helps make her big. She's usually a 4/4 or bigger (sometimes a lot bigger) by the time she enters the battlefield. You can either start swinging with her as soon as she untaps, or, if the board is stalled, you can give her +2/+2 each turn by using her ability to get a fetchland or Horizon Canopy. The Canopies are especially nice because you can turn excess lands into cards in hand. The reason you don't play Wastelands is because they don't help you cast anything. They also have bad synergy with Price of Progress. Instead, you play Horizon Canopies to smooth out your own manabase. They're pretty amazing, actually.

[jazzykat]

Some observations after playing this deck a while:

Manabase:
To me, wasteland is useless. You are trying to kill your opponent, I mean literally bring their life total to 0 in as few turns as possible. I have been the victim of Canadian Thresh's, Merfolks and other lists LD tactics. What this deck needs is the most stable and fastest way to assure 1 of each color of mana with a green and a white mana available at the same time (Pridemage, and KoTR). If you have a early steady manabase short of playing vs. combo, or an early CB/Top lock I generally win.

PtE:
Originally I looked at it and thought the card was not playable in legacy. Given the speed of this deck and the fact that we don't destroy land, or play daze anyway I prefer it to swords for this deck.

KotR:
If you win before you can drop it that's great but as someone else stated above you need goyf's 5&6 because vs. Thresh decks it's normally about who has more goyfs and your normal goyfs are probably not going to stick.

Lavamancer:
I can't believe people talk about cutting this guy. Ever play against merfolk?

Pridemage:
WOW, I don't remember when 1 utilityesque card change the game so much. He single handedly gave this deck a reasonable MD answer to CB, Shackles, Standstill, etc. as well as breaking Goyf Stalemates.

All in all, in a comboless meta I can see why this is truly a DTB.

EDIT: Regarding Skeggi's comment is domain (or at least black for DC) zoo a reality now with enemy fetches as well? As I can see DC taking the slot of the 2 sylvan libraries.

[MMogg]

PtE:
Originally I looked at it and thought the card was not playable in legacy. Given the speed of this deck and the fact that we don't destroy land, or play daze anyway I prefer it to swords for this deck.

Good observations, except I really can't agree with this one. In reality, Swords to Plowshares shines against weenies like Goblin Lackey, but against bigger threats Path excels by helping you get to your goal of 0-20 as fast as possible. Even an additional five life to your opponent can mean the difference between one extra turn. Really tough call. In my opinion the deck runs enough burn to provide weenie removal and Path to Exile is great for bigger threats.

[Volt]

In my opinion the deck runs enough burn to provide weenie removal and Path to Exile is great for bigger threats.

Yep. This deck is perhaps the one exception to the "Plow > Path" rule for those exact reasons. There doesn't seem to be much disagreement on that topic anymore.

P.S. Thanks, Skeggi.

[Skeggi]

All in all, in a comboless meta I can see why this is truly a DTB.

Actually, (Domain) Zoo is a DTB in the Dutch meta, where ANT is also a DTB. The match-up isn't that favorable towards ANT as people traditionally think, as Gaddock Teeg and Ethersworn Canonist stop ANT from going off, while fast aggro sometimes makes sure Ad Nauseaum fizzles while being cast at 9 lives or less (especially if you give your opponent a surprize Lightning Bolt).

[MMogg]

Yep. This deck is perhaps the one exception to the "Plow > Path" rule for those exact reasons. There doesn't seem to be much disagreement on that topic anymore.

Hehe, one of the first times I played Zoo I faced a Lord of Extinction! That made up my mind pretty quickly.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Seriously i don't think anyone actually cares what Thoughtseizer posts anymore, not like he had much creditability in the first place. But anywho.

I was thinking about my list, and i like Sylvan Library, but i just think it takes away from what the deck wants to do. I'm giving the same thought process i had with Cursed Scroll. I love the card, but i don't wanna wait until later to get what i pay mana for. Idk it's a good card and idk if I'll cut it, but I'm kinda thinking about it, and for what i have no idea. Just some thoughts.

I think the new RW fetch should replace Heath. Red is more important to the deck, and so is white in some situations. I always wanna have my basic Plains open for the PTE on some gay moon effect or something. I guess I'm just stating what everyone else is thinking. The manabase seems stronger with the card as well. I'd probably go 4 Foothills, 4 Mesa, 2 Heath. Seems strong as hell.

I really like the new cat creature, but not for Legacy. I see it being pretty good for Extended and Standard though. AKA, formats without Wasteland, Stifle, Daze shenanigans. And idk about you guys, but RGW Zoo seems INSANE this next Extended Season. Pridemage is even more nuts.

[Skeggi]

I really like the new cat creature, but not for Legacy. I see it being pretty good for Extended and Standard though. AKA, formats without Wasteland, Stifle, Daze shenanigans. And idk about you guys, but RGW Zoo seems INSANE this next Extended Season. Pridemage is even more nuts.

By 'the new cat creature' you probably are referring to this one:

Scythe Tiger
Creature - Cat
Shroud
When Scythe Tiger enters the battlefield, sacrifice it unless you sacrifice a land.

I really like it has Shroud, but when looking for a creature that costs , beats for 3 and has Shroud, Nimble Mongoose is probably the better option.

[mackaber]

Got a few good laughs out of thoughtseizer there, I must say he's rather pathetic.
But anyhow on to something more important: that is the number of fetches. Quite frankly I'm a fetchland extremist. Everyone knows fetches are the best lands ever printed and besides optimizing your mana they give you threshhold and feed hungry lavamancers and or Knights of the Relinquary. My very first thought when seeing the new Mesa is that now I can run 12 awesome fetchlands and my manabase will be almost perfect with 17 red 16 white and 16 green sources and 9 ways to find every single basic land. How's that for consistency ey?

12 fetches
1 mountai
1 plains
1 forest
2 Taiga
2 Plateu
1 Savahna

So yes I've heard it all before fetchlands suck against stifle that's why people don't like to run as many as possible. But regardless of playing 8,10 or 12 fetches the chances that your gonna have to pop one on turns 1 or 2 (when getting stifled really hurts most) are very high so why not just fuck stifle and go for the manabase that offers you the largest amount of redundancy?
Also in decs like thresh the fact that at some point you won't find any more lands to fetch can actually be rather relevant but when playing zoo I must confess I'm not afraid of the situation where I can't find any more lands cause if that's happened my chances of winning have slipped into percentile digits anyways.
While many of you might think to yourself mackaber's talking crap and don't know shit about Magic. I'd like to point out that I'm not the only person on this planet who holds fetches in such high regard. While running more than 8 fetches in legacy is somewhat uncommon (but not unheard of, just go check out DerimaginäreFreunds thresh lists) it's been standard in Extended Boros/Zoo decs for over 3 years to run at least 11 fetches and sometimes even more than 12 even though stifle has been a metagame concern there for quite some time as well albeit no as relevant as in Legacy.

So tell me: why not run 12?

[MMogg]

I always wanna have my basic Plains open for the PTE on some gay moon effect or something. I guess I'm just stating what everyone else is thinking. The manabase seems stronger with the card as well. I'd probably go 4 Foothills, 4 Mesa, 2 Heath. Seems strong as hell.

Disagree a bit. In the case of Moonscrew (that's right, I think I just coined a term for Blood Moon antics), I prefer Windswept Heath since everything will be red afterwards, the Health lets you equally search for the necessary Forest or Plains.

By 'the new cat creature' you probably are referring to this one:

Scythe Tiger
Creature - Cat
Shroud
When Scythe Tiger enters the battlefield, sacrifice it unless you sacrifice a land.

I really like it has Shroud, but when looking for a creature that costs , beats for 3 and has Shroud, Nimble Mongoose is probably the better option.

Yeah, especially the drawback. Too bad this guy isn't a Goblin:

Scythe Tiger
Creature - Goblin-Cat
Shroud
When Scythe Tiger enters the battlefield, sacrifice it unless you sacrifice a mountain.
His father was a lonely guy as the lone Goblin on a cat ranch.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Disagree a bit. In the case of Moonscrew (that's right, I think I just coined a term for Blood Moon antics), I prefer Windswept Heath since everything will be red afterwards, the Health lets you equally search for the necessary Forest or Plains.

You know what i mean. A bit unnecessary post, kinda like this one, so I'll make it not so.

I don't see why this deck is scared of Dragon Stompy either. I've maimed the deck everytime I've played against it. Chalice sucks but i don't see any other problem cards. Moon can suck if you're on the play and fetch wrong, otherwise, they don't run geddon effects like Stax, and then you fetch your basics. Our creatures are almost always bigger, and Goyf trumps every creature in their deck. Plus Grudge from the board is hilarious.

Anywho, fuck Goyf, and Top. Haha. I'm totally a hater.

[jazzykat]

I think some serious testing needs to be done regarding the manabase. Since I believe most of us at least play 9 fetches that we can all agree that at least 1 of the new RW fetches is necessary. I would also like to remind you guys who are proposing to run 12 fetches along with horizon canopy you will have way more fetches/non-fetchable lands than actual fetchable lands. I wonder if this might become a problem vs. wastelands and stifles?

[mackaber]

I think some serious testing needs to be done regarding the manabase. Since I believe most of us at least play 9 fetches that we can all agree that at least 1 of the new RW fetches is necessary. I would also like to remind you guys who are proposing to run 12 fetches along with horizon canopy you will have way more fetches/non-fetchable lands than actual fetchable lands. I wonder if this might become a problem vs. wastelands and stifles?

Running 12 fetches obv necessitates running no canopys see my last post for an example manabase.

[rancOr_]

I've always played 10fetches in Zoo,and when I played Sligh I even played 12.
With the arrive of the new R/W fetchland,I find it very reasonable to run 12fetchlands,since the only reason I wasnt doing that now was being bloodstained mire not good enough to run more then2.
It helps to filter your deck,it feeds lavamancer,it feeds KotR,it fixes mana,and its in some ways wasteland proof. There is no problem at all with running more fetches then actual lands,because by playing 8-9 non fetchlands u will have more then enough.

Like mackaber alrdy stated,stifle is NOT a reason for not running more fetches. If u play less fetches u can still get stifled,and ur opening yourself to even more wasteland effects,which can really hurt this deck.
Btw,the only real current metagame deck running stifles is TT.

As for Sylvan Lybrary, I've tested it out good and even in some tournaments now,and I must say the results are quite impressive.This deck doesnt really care about its own life total,and against certain MU's,u can draw 1-2 extra cards after they cleared ur board/outtempo'd u. The synergy it has with Lightning Helix is just a big plus.
I think most pple on this thread agreed on this being the best creature base ATM:
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Kird Ape
4 Grim Lavamancer(rly MVP,especially with all the Merfolk in the meta here)
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
2 KotR

@Skeggi. I'm gonna test Domain Zoo now aswell,since i really like the power of dark confidant/tribal flames,which are for me the only reasons u can find for running that deck above RGW Zoo. Not to mention the deck gets boosted by the new fetchlands.

[mackaber]

"Statistically it is the second best deck?" You have a funny idea of statistics. It's good to look at results from large tournaments, but you shouldn't leap to wacky conclusions based on a tournament from last year.

For the record, Team America is a'ight. It definitely isn't one of the better decks in the format, but I wouldn't describe it as "crappy," either.

Let me rephrase that then: A suboptimal choice to win the World Championships.

Anyways what's up with 12 fetchlands? The only reason I can come up with to play less is that you wan't to play some Canopys.

[Volt]

Anyways what's up with 12 fetchlands? The only reason I can come up with to play less is that you wan't to play some Canopys.

Yes, I'd rather play some Canopies. 8 fetches + 3 Canopies is pretty close to perfect.

[ZaMo]

I played at Moscow Open tournament held on 08/30 and did rather good, losing at top8. I don't know if the tournament has already been processed by the Source's DTB caretakers (no lists spotted on deckcheck yet), so I'll list top8 below.

Here's my list:

4 Wild Nacatl
3 Kird Ape
1 Figure of Destiny (tried him instead of 4th Ape, it went perfect, I plan on playing 2 Figures from now on)
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Qasali Pridemage (should have been 4-of, more on this later)
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Knight of the Reliquary (I am still unsure if the deck needs ANY of 3-drops, but anyway, Knights did their job well)

2 Path to Exile (I certainly need more of these)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
3 Lightning Helix
3 Price of Progress
2 Fireblast (I feel it is the right number)

4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath (I know having too few 'actual' lands is risky, but I opted to maximize Knights' impact on the game that day, and Lavamancers didn't mind it, either)
1 Savannah
2 Plateau
3 Taiga
1 Mountain
1 Forest (This may sound like a sacrilege, but I don't want to play basic Forests anymore, it hurts more than I thought of)
1 Horizon Canopy (did surprisingly well, I am thinking of second one)
1 Wasteland (I count this as a spell, not land, I'd play 21 lands w/o Wasteland)

3 Krosan Grip
2 Sulfuric Vortex (much to my dismay, I seldom wanted to see these in my hand, should have been something else)
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Vexing Shusher (I think 3 would cut it)
2 Pithing Needle
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Volcanic Fallout (took them above Pyroclasms due to instant-speed, and dealing uncounterable damage to the dome doesn't hurt)

On my way to top, I defeated Kithkin (don't laugh, they made it into top eventually), Survival, Ichorid (must have been 'my' day, it is next to unwinnable, but I got lucky with Relics and a Fallout), Merfolk and CounterTop w/white (they say it had Progenitus too, but lucky things again, I haven't seen the hydra), losing to Aggro-Loam (Devastating Dreams). There was an ID, too, but that's irrelevant (although I wouldn't mind playing those Merfolk in 1/4).

Then I lost to our eventual winner, and it all went like this:

1. BR-rogue w/Helm of Obedience
2. Elves w/Progenitus (feat. Survival of the Fittest)
3-4. Merfolk
3-4. UBg Faeries
5-8. Kithkin (you see, Faeries and Kithkin, thought you could escape them?)
5-8. Aggro-Loam
5-8. Survival
5-8. Naya Zoo

Ah, I forgot to add we managed to gather not 20, not 30, but 72 people that day.

The deck looks solid, Knights deserve their two slots, and I see it fit to shift towards more creature-heavy version, cutting Lavamancers for more Figures and Pridemages. I also want 3rd PtE. On the other hand, it would be stupid not to main PoP in our meta, so I am quite perplexed about which way to choose.

I must say I haven't tested Sylvan Library yet, so that's another story. And I'm gonna play 4 Mesas, that's for sure ;-)

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

I really really like Goblin Guide. I'm definitely going to do some serious testing with him in my Isamaru/singleton FoD spot. He seems insane in a format with low-ish land count. He seems better in RG but he does what Zoo wants him to as well. That's my two cents.

[Skeggi]

Goblin Guide has the same mana cost as Kird Ape, but has a smaller body and a worse drawback. Kird Ape is one of the deck's weakest creatures. Why play Goblin Guide?