[Archetype] CounterTop

[MWest52117]

I've seen Mongoose not being included in alot of lists in this thread. Is War Monk taking it's place? I must be one of the only people that still play it this style of deck. I still like it because it has shroud.

Creatures like the already mentioned Rhox War Monk, Vendilion Clique, Trygon Predator, Dark Confidant in black splash variants, and even Lorescale Coatl make an immediate impact beyond what a Mongoose makes in the early game. And Mongoose is virtually useless when you are trying to stabilize against Zoo early on, being outclassed by every creature in the deck until you get Threshold, and even then only trading with a Nacatl not pumped by Pridemage. The extra 2-3cc in the CB curve is also something to consider; this deck doesn't need extra 1cc in the curve as lists are already running 14 1cc spells at minimum.

[Jayzonious]

If you had to cram 2+ Lorescale Coatls into a CB list, what would you cut? I playtested Lorescale in a casual game, and the Brainstorm=Free Giant Growth effect was amazing, just being able to threaten attacking with a 3/3 which could potentially be a 6/6 for 1U was a nice trick . Not to mention the giantgrowth is permanent. He also gains +1/+1 every time it's you turn and every time you tap top to draw. He seemed to end up way bigger than Goyf very quickly if he stuck.

Here is my current list:

20 Land

4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
2 Island

10 Creatures

3 Rhox War Monk
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Trygon Predator
2 Sower of Temptation

28 Other Spells

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
2 Vedalken Shackles
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Ponder
2 Firespout

4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance

15 Sideboard
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Krosan Grip
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Firespout
1 Trygon Predator

[MWest52117]

In my current lists, I've been running Lorescale Coatl as a 2 of in your Rhox War Monk slot, but the 3rd War Monk is a 2nd MD Trygon Predator. I like the 2nd one maindecked since your current list has exactly one out to a resolved CB. There hasn't been a lot of Zoo or Goyf Sligh in my local metagame recently so I haven't needed the lifegain from the War Monk as much as some others seem to have. However I have room in my SB for the 2 additional Firespouts and 2 EE's so my Zoo matchup isn't all that bad when it does come up. To be fair, my current list is a lot like yours Jayzonious (-1 Daze, -3 War Monk, -1 Tundra +1 Counterspell, +2 Lorescale Coatl, +1 Trygon Predator, +1 Volcanic Island) but with a slightly different SB.

[blueneverfails]

If you had to cram 2+ Lorescale Coatls into a CB list, what would you cut? I playtested Lorescale in a casual game, and the Brainstorm=Free Giant Growth effect was amazing, just being able to threaten attacking with a 3/3 which could potentially be a 6/6 for 1U was a nice trick . Not to mention the giantgrowth is permanent. He also gains +1/+1 every time it's you turn and every time you tap top to draw. He seemed to end up way bigger than Goyf very quickly if he stuck.

Here is my current list:

20 Land

4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
2 Island

10 Creatures

3 Rhox War Monk
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Trygon Predator
2 Sower of Temptation

28 Other Spells

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
2 Vedalken Shackles
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Ponder
2 Firespout

4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance

15 Sideboard
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Krosan Grip
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Firespout
1 Trygon Predator

I would prob take out the sowers as in my testing of sowers, I've hated the card and felt that all it did was stall the person one turn before he killed the sowers.

[Jayzonious]

MWest could you post your SB choices?

[MWest52117]

MWest could you post your SB choices?

I'm currently packing:

3 Hydroblast
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Firespout
2 Krosan Grip
2 Pithing Needle
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Academy Ruins

This is currently designed for a heavy aggro/aggro-control metagame where I prefer to board into a more board-control centric deck against decks like Goblins/Zoo/Goyf Sligh. The Academy Ruins is a test slot for matchups like the mirror where recurring Engineered Explosives can be extremely powerful, if mana intensive; and also the option of trying to get recursive Tormod's Crypt lock against decks that fold to it. Plus being able to recur removed Vedalken Shackles against certain decks can be gamebreaking. The Pithing Needles found a home since there's enough decks in my metagame that I needed to be able to shut down manlands/Pernicious Deed/Qasali Pridemage/Umezawa's Jitte/Wasteland against permanently. For a random metagame, I'd go -1 Academy Ruins, -1 Tormod's Crypt, -1 Firespout, and +1 Relic of Progenitus, +2 Pyroblast. Ancient Grudge has also found a home in here from time to time; mainly when I had a Stax player in my local metagame, but is also a thought when Chalice aggro decks or Painter's Servant/Grindstone decks are on your radar, perhaps over the Pithing Needles.

[Jayzonious]

Great write up on your SB, thanks!

After the sideboard advice and the Lorescale Coatl discussion my decklist has derived to the following:


20 Land

4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
2 Island

12 Creatures

2 Rhox War Monk
2 Lorescale Coatl
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Trygon Predator
2 Sower of Temptation

26 Other Spells

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Ponder
2 Firespout

4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance

15 Sideboard
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
1 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Hyrdroblast
3 Krosan Grip
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Firespout
2 Engineered Explosives

I decided to cut the Vedalken Shackles. I feel this build has a very solid match up against aggro, but also has a fighting chance against the mirror match. I will play test this list and let you guys know how it works out for me.

[Schulz]

I have been wanting to start a CounterTop Deck for a while and had been looking a a bunch of lists online and talk with some friends. If you could tell me what you think and give me some ideas


4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Island

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Rhox War Monk
2 Sower of Temptation
1 Trygon Predator

4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Vendalklen Shackles
3 Stifle
2 Ponder
4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top

Sideboard-
3 Krosan Grip
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Blue Blast
2 Enlightened Tutor
3 Firespout

[sauce]

I have been wanting to start a CounterTop Deck for a while and had been looking a a bunch of lists online and talk with some friends. If you could tell me what you think and give me some ideas


4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Island

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Rhox War Monk
2 Sower of Temptation
1 Trygon Predator

4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Vendalklen Shackles
3 Stifle
2 Ponder
4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top

Sideboard-
3 Krosan Grip
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Blue Blast
2 Enlightened Tutor
3 Firespout

-3 stifle +1 ponder +1 daze +1 trygon predator
stifle does not belong in countertop... its a tempo thresh card, you should be busy spending early game mana on establishing the countertop lock, not trying to stifle a fetchland and if they don't play one, you just got timewalked.

[MWest52117]

@Schulz: I have to agree with Sauce's comments about Stifle in CounterTop. The deck design is not aggressive enough to take advantage of the early tempo advantage given by a Stifled fetchland. Plus there is no Wasteland to complement it for LD, and this deck really wants to make a decent amount of land drops, especially if you want to power up Shackles to the point of stealing Tarmogoyfs. Sideboard question: Why do you have Enlightened Tutor in your SB when all it really fetches out of the board is your graveyard hate, and your MD Shackles (I know, SDT and CB, but both are MD 4 ofs). Wouldn't you be better served running cards like REB/Pyroblast or Engineered Explosives in its place?

[psu42]

Agreed, no stifle.

I have been questioning whether Sower of Temptation is worth a slot in the deck lately. I played a similar list a couple weeks back, and although starting 4-1, I couldn't win either of the last 2 rounds to make top 8. I really liked the deck all day, but was unpleased with Sower.

He was slow and requires too much of a mana investment. It seemed like everytime he hit play I was tapping out and he is just to fragile. Is there any other cards that could be useful in this slot?

The other problem I encountered was not having enough threats. I wish there was another creature that could put serious pressure on your opponent. Rhox and Trygon don't really give any serious attacking pressure.

I have been looking to make room for maybe 3x Natural Order and 1x Progenitus in the deck. Currently cutting 1 of my Ponders, the 2 Sowers, and a Predator.

Any thoughts?

[Jayzonious]

The other problem I encountered was not having enough threats. I wish there was another creature that could put serious pressure on your opponent. Rhox and Trygon don't really give any serious attacking pressure.

I also encountered this the last tournament I went to with CB. This is why I added 2 Lorescale Coatls to my list.

[Misplayer]

For additional pressure, try Jitte or Vendillion Clique. I'd run at least 12 creatures with Jitte though, and preferably 2+ each of Trygon Predator/Vendillion Clique because a Jitte in the air is a beating.

Sower was better when everyone and their cousin was playing Phyrexian Dreadnought (esp UGr builds with no spot removal). Sower is weak against popular aggro decks like Merfolk and Zoo, where Shackles is really an all-star in both those matchups.

Additionally, is the white splash still worth it? ELD has had a lot of success with his UGbr build (Nassif's deck with Red/Bolts instead of White/StP). You swap RWM/StP for Confidant/Bolt when compared to the standard UGwr lists. Considering Bolt answers 85% of the threats in the format and the ridiculous power level of Confidant, I think the UGbr build may be stronger. Confidant also curves out your threats a little more nicely.

[Schulz]

@Schulz: I have to agree with Sauce's comments about Stifle in CounterTop. The deck design is not aggressive enough to take advantage of the early tempo advantage given by a Stifled fetchland. Plus there is no Wasteland to complement it for LD, and this deck really wants to make a decent amount of land drops, especially if you want to power up Shackles to the point of stealing Tarmogoyfs. Sideboard question: Why do you have Enlightened Tutor in your SB when all it really fetches out of the board is your graveyard hate, and your MD Shackles (I know, SDT and CB, but both are MD 4 ofs). Wouldn't you be better served running cards like REB/Pyroblast or Engineered Explosives in its place?

The E. Tutor can fetch out more then just the graveyard hate (which is never really a bad thing) and the shackles. It also gets Top and Counterbalance of if either get destroyed you can get them back online fast.

So now that i'm removing the Stifles what should i bring in now that i have open slots. Would adding Counterspells or Spell Snares be a good add on?

Is there anything i should take out of my sideboard to put other things in or do you think it covers all the bases needed?

[Sage]

I completely agree with psu42 in that this deck needs more threats. And as Jayzonious pointed out, adding 2 Lorescale Coatl's felt really good in playtesting. Having Coatl in play makes seeing two tops a good thing instead of a bad thing. I took out 1 Firespout and 1 Ponder to take the threat count up to 12. The Coatl also fills a role that even Goyf has a hard time filling sometimes in that it becomes a finisher in longer games.

Also, I just wanted to mention that I completely agree with previous posters in that the optimal land count seems to be 20 due to the cb/top lock being so mana intensive and the added protection from LD is very helpful. Mulligans also seem to be decreasing as a result of adding in the extra two lands.

[MWest52117]

The E. Tutor can fetch out more then just the graveyard hate (which is never really a bad thing) and the shackles. It also gets Top and Counterbalance of if either get destroyed you can get them back online fast.

So now that i'm removing the Stifles what should i bring in now that i have open slots. Would adding Counterspells or Spell Snares be a good add on?

Is there anything i should take out of my sideboard to put other things in or do you think it covers all the bases needed?

I've run a singleton Counterspell to complement Daze in the slot where other players would add a 4th Daze. Spell Snare is also a good idea, it isn't played in most of the lists posted recently but it is still a viable choice. Moving some of the Firespouts from the SB to your MD if you have enough Zoo/Merfolk/Goblins in your metagame to justify it can help out against fast swarms before you get a Shackles online. A 2nd Trygon Predator seems advisable as well for the mirror match as well as randomness like Stax and Enchantress.

[sauce]

having more than 1 top is never a bad thing because your top can get gripped, you can draw off the 2nd top before you fetch to shuffle away 2 lands on top of your lib but grab a brainstorm or something w/ the top.. its never a bad thing.

edit: regarding bolt vs stp and rwm vs bob
i think stp is way more versatile than bolt... it kills two of the most important threats in the format always: goyf, dreadnought (not to mention tombstalker and a grown up coatl)
bob vs rwm is an interesting debate.. i played w/ rwm's for last 3-4 weeks and really liked them but i do miss the card advantage/raw power of bob.

regarding sower being weak, youre doing it wrong.
sower is a house. i cant begin to count the number of games i won because of him.
besides, your opponent almost never can follow up with anything more relevant than a sower when youre tapped out.
if you're tapped out to play sower, it better be because you're losing otherwise.

[psu42]

Like, Sower is either bad or unneeded. If I'm tapping out to play him I'm generally in a bad spot, and he's gonna kick it soon. Or I just don't need him. Either situation he's not very good.

I'll try to Coatl...I'll probably cut Rhox War Monk too....he was fun to toy around with...but lifelink rarely if ever matters, and he's not too big and doesn't grow for the same 3 mana cost.

And as much as I think Bob is great for cards...I'd rather have removal for Goyfs. No lightning bolts will ever remove a goyf (in any seriousness).

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Top 8ed a 33 man tourney last night with my custom CoatlTop list.

I got my smashed by Doomsday/Ad Nauseum. How do you guys play that matchup? I apologize if this question sounds n00b-ish, but i was just curious. It just seemed to me like they run too much protection.

Edit: Tried RWM, and he sucks balls. No offense to the people that swear by him, but I boarded him out every matchup. I guess he is just there to combat heavy Zoo metagames.

[miko]

i like rhox a lot. but i have to admit that i play in a very aggro-oriented meta.

regarding coatl: i also think that clique is a far better option than coatl. coatl just doesnt do anything besides getting big (if it stays on the table). whereas clique can help to improve a lot of matchups (control, combo, etc...).

im also not to confident about daze. playing a lot of 3cc-creatures. i never want to lose a turn due to the land put into my hand. i made the experience that almost every player i play against plays around daze. so i cut it and played spell snare instead. guess what happened. they still play around daze and i was still able to spell snare their important spells. so playing spell snare is a viable option to daze.

i am also not sure if the red splash for firespout is needed. what i am currently testing looks like that:

Maindeck

4 x Tropical Island
4 x Tundra
4 x Windswept Heath
1 x Snowcovered Plains
1 x Forest
2 x Island
4 x Flooded Strand
4 x Counterbalance
2 x Ponder
4 x Force of Will
4 x Spellsnare
4 x Brainstorm
2 x Vendillion Clique
4 x Tarmogoyf
4 x Qasali Pridemage
3 x Rhox War Monk
1 x Umezawa´s Jitte
4 x Sensei´s Diving Top
4 x Swords to Plowshares

Sideboard
1 x Umezawa´s Jitte
2 x Hail Storm
2 x Krosan grip
3 x Path to Exile
2 x Engineered Explosives
3 x Gaddock Teeg
1 x Tormod´s Crypt
1 x Relic of Progenitus

this list is made especially for an aggressive meta. zoo, merfolk, goblins, kithkins. especially the sb helps to improve matches against a lot of aggressive decks. hail storm e.g. sometimes takes out 3-5 goblins...