So yea, Goblin Guide is pretty nuts for this deck. 1cc 2/2 Haste is exactly what the deck has always wanted, and it just got it. The drawback is very minimal, considering that most decks will draw an extra card (land) from it 1/3 of the time, and we have a 3-5 turn clock. Goblin Guide increases the clock drastically... and even as a topdeck, it's pretty good, since few opponent's will hold back blockers if you don't have creatures in play, effectively acting as a Shock (unless they have removal). Easy replacement for Mogg Fanatic, IMO.
While I agree that Qasali Pridemage is good and can improve certain matchups (Chalice, CounterTop), it being GW is far too restrictive on the manabase. It opens you up drastically to manabase hate and severly weakens PoP's. I realize t1 Nacatl t2 Pridemage is sick, but let's not stretch things too far. Let's not forget that I was the major promoter for Nacatl in Goyf Sligh when it was first printed and had to fight waves of criticism about running Nacatl and going 3c... and even I have to say that Pridemage is better left for Zoo. Even with the new enemy fetchlands, running GW creatures is simply too much. If you want answers to Chalice and CounterTop, stay in color and run Vexing Shusher.
Here's what I'll be playing as soon as Goblin Guide gets printed:
RGw Goyf Sligh
Lands (19)
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Arid Mesa
3 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
4 Mountain
1 Forest
Creatures (14)
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Goblin Guide
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
Spells (27)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Incinerate
4 Magma Jet
3 Price of Progress
4 Fireblast
Sideboard (15)
1 Price of Progress
2 Krosan Grip (or Smash to Smithereens)
4 Vexing Shusher
4 Path to Exile
4 Chalice of the Void
Exact same MD I used to run, directly swapping Fanatics for Guides. My sideboard has changed, but that's due to the metagame shift and the new cards (in this case, PtE), that have been printed since the last time I played this deck.
The low creature density high burn count is what makes this deck so lethal and seperates it from Zoo. The creatures push through early damage points, backed with burn on small blockers. Once that plan goes to hell, the opponent should be low enough on life, and the reach of all the burn spells should easily finish the opponent off. Very aggressive deck. Some matchups just play out like straight burn, when that's how you're drawing, which is perfectly acceptable... some matchups are better off that way.
Vexing Shusher is the ultimate Chalice/CounterTop stopper. Krosan Grip, if I choose to run it over Smithereens, is not there for Chalice/CounterTop... it's there for other random problematic artifacts/enchantments.
Looks really good Hanni, I'll be playing it too. Have you given a look at Ankh of Mishra lately? It supplements the Guide pretty well, and with more fetchlands than ever, might steal some wins... although that's iffy. Maybe it's better than Incinerate? Sulfuric Vortex should be a SB Card imo. Pulse of the Fields completely hoses you, and is better than ever.Originally Posted by Hanni
How many decks are seriously packing Pulse of the Fields? CunningStill is the only deck I know that runs it, and most Landstill lists these days are packing Counterbalance in their board instead.
Ankh of Mishra is a bad topdeck. Similarly to why I always opted for Fanatic over Kird Ape, you don't want to topdeck into dead cards. The clock is designed so that if you go into topdeck mode (great part about running so many burn spells), most every spell you draw into is relevant to finishing the almost dead opponent off.
Ankh is only really good when dropped turn 2, when you really want to be dropping creatures or casting burn. If it were to be added, it would be in place of a creature, and I feel that all of the creatures currently run > Ankh. However, I've not tested it, so I have no playtesting results to back that claim up.
Maybe in a list with MD PtE + Guide, Ankh could be busted. I'm not saying it's not a good card. I just feel like everything else currently in the deck is better.
However, I have tested the shit out of this deck (my list) back before the rules change with Mogg Fanatic, and the deck was one hell of a beating.
I would play Keldon Marauders or Hellspark Elemental instead of Incinerate. Both generally do more dmg and Hellspark can unearth under Chalice or Counterbalance lock.
Also, from my experience, Lavamancer is good enough to play at least 3 of. He gets in the last few pts of dmg when the board is gummed up.
-4 Incinerate
+3 Hellspark/Marauder (take your pick)
+1 Grim Lavamancer
Here's my R/g version for those interested:
4 Goblin Guide
4 Figure of Destiny
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Keldon Marauders
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Magma Jet
3 Price of Progress
3 Fireblast
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Taiga
8 Mountain
Sideboard:
2 Pyroblast
3 Krosan Grip
3 Vexing Shusher
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Pyroclasm
1 Price of Progress
I really like Figure in Goyfsligh, because he's so good at clogging up the board while you horde burn spells. You can sit on him for 2-3 turns, saving your fire for the dome on turn 4. Nacatl is just as good but that manabase... Figure never shrinks to a Wasteland.
Hello Goblin Guide, goodbye Fanatic.
There are reasons why I prefer Incinerate over both Hellspark and Marauders. Hellspark does nothing when the opponent has a blocker (read: X/4 or bigger) on board. Keldon Maurders is in a similar boat, but it is a bit better. Still, Incinerate has reach that neither have; it can hit creatures to act as removal, or go straight to the dome for 3 straight up damage, no questions asked. Not to say my choice is strictly better, it's just my preferred playstyle with the deck. I've playtested the deck a fuckton of times, and Incinerate has always been a great spell for me.
As for Lavamancer, I've done extensive testing with this. 2 is the correct number. You don't really ever need to see a Lavamancer to be effective, and you never want to see multiples, even in the face of removal. Without it's ability, it's a shitty 1/1. With it's ability, supposing you're playing the deck right, it will typically get around 3 activations (removal depending, obviously), and it's typically better later on than early since early you want to be spending your mana on spells rather than activations. Of course, it can get more than 3 activations when the game goes long, against a deck with countermagic or discard, but those are the average statistics I've come across in playtesting. 6 damage for R is good, but it's conditional. In comparison, Nacatl does that in 2 turns rather than 3. I've found 14 creatures to be the ideal creature count, and the weakest one is Lavamancer. All of these things, added up, equal to me that 2 Grim Lavamancer's is the correct number.
I also think Figure is horrible, and I've stated my reasoning on a large number of posts in this thread in earlier pages. Basically, this deck curves out beautifully so that you rarely have excess mana to sink. Figure is a 1cc 1/1, which is horrible. Even though the cost is split, it's still a 2cc 2/2 after pump, which again, is horrible. Then, it pumps to a 5cc 4/4. If you're able to spend 5 mana to make a 4/4 in the early turns of the game, you should have mulliganed cause your hand sucks (i.e you should have been curving out with additional creatures and/or burn). Even at 4/4, that's not at all amazing, especially compared to the rest of the power level of the format. If you're ever able to make it to an 11 mana investment for the 8/8 + stats, you more than likely lost already. As an early drop, it sucks up all your tempo, which is horrible. A 4/4 by turn 3 is just slow (which is bad). As a topdeck mid-late, I'd rather be topdecking burn. Seriously, I know some players sware by the guy, and there are tournament results where Goyf Sligh w/ Figure placed well, but that doesn't change my viewpoint. You can play Threshold with a crap card in the mix and still do well, and that's what I feel running Figure in Goyf Sligh is like.
Plus, Nacatl > Figure by like a million, even against an opponent with Wastelands.
We'll have to agree to disagree. From my experience, the deck will simply run out of steam if you try to play it like a tempo deck.
For all your talk about testing, you're also looking at the pump ability all wrong. You don't need to pump Figure in order for it to be a threat. If you have RRR untapped, your opponent isn't going to block your 2/2 Figure with his Mongoose or 3/4 goyf. That 2 damage gets through when a fully powered Nacatl would just trade or die. That 2 damage, followed by some burn post-combat, can end the game quickly.
Goblin Guide does nothing when the opponent has a blocker, X/3 or bigger, on board. Is there any other reason to opt it over Seal of Fire or Tarfire as to include Hellspark/Marauders over Incinerate?
Kird Ape does nothing when the opponent has a blocker, X/3 or bigger, on board. Is there any other reason to opt it over Seal of Fire or Tarfire as to include Hellspark/Marauders over Incinerate?
Wild Nacatl does nothing when the opponent has a blocker, X/4 or bigger, on board. Is there any other reason to opt it over Seal of Fire or Tarfire as to include Hellspark/Marauders over Incinerate?
Guess taht you can simply burn the creature, can´t we?
Super Bizarros Team. Beating everything with small green dudes and big waves.
These comparisons are pointless... Hanni is just saying that he prefers 1-time sources of damage (e.g. burn or sac at eot creatures) that aren't conditioned upon your opponent leaving his board open. That's a perfectly understandable position to take.
There's a major difference between Goblin Guide and Nacatl vs Hellspark and Keldon Marauder. Want to know the biggest difference? Guide and Nacatl are both 1cc and Hellspark and Marauder are both 2cc. HUGE difference.
Want another reason? Guide and Nacatl are permanent threats (unless removed or whatever). Hellspark and Marauder are 1-time effects.
Goblin Guide and Nacatl will more reliably push damage through in the early turns of the game.
There's a big difference between a 1cc 3/3 and a 2cc 3/1 that dies eot, whether or not it Unearths.
Again, the biggest hurdle is the difference between 1cc and 2cc. If you notice, Tarmogoyf is the only 2cc creature I run. Why? Because 2cc creatures cannot attack until turn 3 at the earliest (Hellspark aside, since it has haste, but again, it's only a 1-time effect, and it is conditional). The decks average curve is turn 4, and should be built as such. The only reason I even play Goyf is because it is cost efficient; 2cc 4/5 is great. If it sac'd at the end of turn, I'd drop it in a heartbeat.
This deck is an evolution of Burn, not R/g Aggro (Zoo). As such, the deck plays fundamentally different. The point of the aggro is not to be aggro, but to stretch more cost to damage effeciency out, giving the deck greater damage output against decks that put up resistence. Once the first 3 or 4 turns pass, the deck doesn't want to keep laying creatures down, it wants to play burn. THAT is why I run 14 creatures, and prefer Incincerate over Hellspark/Marauder. If I was playing straight burn, or didn't run the creature base I already run, then sure... I'd run both Hellspark and Maruader. Since that's not the case, I'd rather run my maindeck exactly the way it is.
I've tested the deck a retarded number of times (with Mogg Fanatic instead of Goblin Guide) right after Nacatl got printed and I wouldn't change a thing to my maindeck. If you don't like Incinerate, feel free to drop it for Marauder's or whatever. There's just no convincing me to do so, though.
IMO, the whole reason to play R/g Goyfsligh over straight burn is the better CounterTop matchup. 1. you have access to Krosan Grip. 2. You have big critters that stick around. As I stated before, Hellspark will unearth under CBTop or Chalice@2 and still hit for 3, unlike Incinerate. Marauders are just good if you're already playing creatures (thus bringing your opponent's removal online), and are even better than goyf at lowering your fundamental turn or stretching your "cost to damage efficiency out" as you put it.
Like I said, neither Hellspark or Marauder is bad. Maruader is better than Hellspark, for the fact that it does at least 2 damage regardless if the opponent has a Goyf in play or not. However, I prefer Incinerate over both for the reasons I mentioned.
Exactly my take on it. =]These comparisons are pointless... Hanni is just saying that he prefers 1-time sources of damage (e.g. burn or sac at eot creatures) that aren't conditioned upon your opponent leaving his board open. That's a perfectly understandable position to take.
Also, I prefer Vexing Shusher over Krosan Grip against Counterbalance.
I thought Incinerate was a beaten-to-death card in Burn which was apparently wrong. I'd like to share the statistics from 26 Burn (monoR Sligh, Ankh Sligh decks included) decks (Source: deckcheck.net, after Feb 2009 to unbias the miss of Hellspark Elemental, tournament placement 20% or higher to exclude 7th out of 12.junkdec): Out of the 26 decks, there are 62 pieces of Incinerate, 61 Keldon Marauders and 32 Hellspark Elemental. 4 of these decks did not play any of the 3 cards, 6 of them chose only Incinerate and 4 decks played only Keldon Marauders. Hellspark Elemental did not show much in the first months since release and gained much popularity recently. To conclude, it is a personal preference.
Why are we discussing what Burn is running in Goyf Sligh? I already clearly stated that if I was playing Burn, I would run both Hellspark Elemental and Keldon Marauder's.
While Goyf Sligh is an evolution of Burn, it is still fundamentally different on some levels. That changes my reasoning for why I would run them there and not in here.
Additionally, I also said that neither Marauder's nor Hellspark was bad in Goyf Sligh. I simply stated why I don't run them and why I do run Incinerate. If you do not like my card choice or reasoning, do not do what I do. I'm not trying to convince anyone to do anything.
There is extrenous testing behind my current decklist (-4 Guide, +4 Fanatic) when Nacatl first got printed, and that included Marauder's (not Hellspark) in the testing. What I came up with was what I found to be the ideal configuration. After Fanatic got hosed with the rulings change, I set the deck down for a little while. Now that Guide has been printed, which would be superior to Fanatic regardless of any rules change, I picked the deck back up and did a direct swap for Guides in place of Fanatics. I'm positive that once Guide gets printed and I start playing the deck again, I'm going to come to similar conclusions about the testing results.
I don't see how this deck is fundamentally different from mono red sligh. The addition of Goyf, Nacatl, and/or Grip doesn't materially affect the game plan in my eyes. Moreover, I don't see how the addition of any of those warrants the dismissal of both Marauder or Hellspark.
strenuous??
Mono Red Sligh, from days of old, should be the same. That's why guys like Jackal Pup were good then; we only care about the early game, the late game is finished with burn. Hellspark and Marauder's do fuel that; temporary damage producers. My reasoning is that, given the card pool, we have better options. Hellspark and Marauder's are conditional. Nothing else is. Guide and Nacatl are not situational early on because they actually can and do push damage through before the opponent stabalizes, for example.I don't see how this deck is fundamentally different from mono red sligh. The addition of Goyf, Nacatl, and/or Grip doesn't materially affect the game plan in my eyes. Moreover, I don't see how the addition of any of those warrants the dismissal of both Marauder or Hellspark.
Tremendous, explosive, enormous, who cares. Bad word choice maybe. The concept is still there.strenuous??
---
I'm done arguing my point over petty things, I don't care. Incinerate isn't for everybody, Hellspark and Marauder's aren't bad cards.
If you want to engage me in detailed conversation, let's talk about Figure of Destiny. I've got like 10 pages of Word document on why this card is horrible.
Last edited by Hanni; 09-13-2009 at 12:08 AM.
Well what's your opinion on Ball Lightning? And Bloodbraid elf too. Incinerate seems like a pretty weak slot of 4 to me, and the list I've been testing is alot different than yours. My opposition was probably alot worse, but it was a blast Goldishing the kids I played. None of their decks could keep up.
Lands (20)
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Arid Mesa
4 Taiga
3 Plateau
4 Mountain
1 Forest
Creatures (18)
4 Goblin Guide
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Ball Lightning
2 Bloodbraid Elf
Spells (22)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Magma Jet
3 Price of Progress
3 Fireblast
The Changes to Hanni's list are as follows
-4 Incinerate
-2 Grim Lavamancer
-1 Fireblast
+4 Ball Lightning
+2 Bloodbraid Elf
+1 Plateau
My reasoning behind these changes, is to increase the amount of damage the average card in the deck deals. Ball Lightning is 3 more damage than Incinerate, and only 1 more mana. I know everyone knows the downsides of running Ball Lightning, but here's how I see it. It's 6 damage for one spell, in one of the best CC slots there is against Counterbalance. Bloodbraid Elf can Cascade into it for 9 Hasted power, and while I know that isn't likely, you're also only going to get a couple of possible things from that guy, and they're all attractive.
+2 Damage and Scry 2
+3 Damage to any target
2/2 Haste /w Drawback
x/x+1 Tarmogoyf
x/x Wild Nacatl (often 3/3)
6/1 Haste trample
a PoP to their face
for 4 mana, those all seem like worthy perks on top of the 3/2 Haste. Adding both Ball Lightning and Bloodbraid elf raises your curve a bit, but i feel like it adds alot of power to the deck. Take this sample hand for example, I just goldfished it.
Mountain, Forest, Chain Lightning, Lightning Bolt, Bloodbraid Elf, Lightning Bolt, Fireblast
Turn 1: Chain Lightning takes them to 17
Turn 2: Draw Tarmogoyf, and play it (not always this easy, but w/e)
Turn 3: Draw and play Taiga, Play 2x Lightning Bolt, attack with goyf.
Turn 4: Rip a Fetchland, Play Bloodbraid elf, Cascade into Goblin Guide. Attack with your 3 guys for 8-11 dmg, Fireblast. That's 20 damage, even if Goyf went plowing. Of course, this is only 1 example.
I'm not sure if these changes make the deck alot better. I could see Grim Lavamancer being missed for sure, but I don't think that he would be as good here. I can see this build being a bit more cumbersome on mana, but having alot more inevitability. It's really easy to run out of cards with a burn deck, and I think playing bigger guys helps alleviate that problem. Either way, it's a blast to play.
Last edited by troopatroop; 09-19-2009 at 03:33 AM.
I've never tested either card, so I cannot say.Well what's your opinion on Ball Lightning? And Bloodbraid elf too. Incinerate seems like a pretty weak slot of 4 to me, and the list I've been testing is alot different than yours. My opposition was probably alot worse, but it was a blast Goldishing the kids I played. None of their decks could keep up.
However, simply off theory, you're raising the fundamental curve. We don't have cantrips, and if you don't hit enough land, you're seeing virtual card disadvantage. Less so with Ball Lightning, but you never want to see 4 lands, which you actually have to have for Bloodbraid.
While you do get 6 damage out of 1 card with Ball Lightning, you also (on the average based on actual play statistics), you get 6 damage out of 1 card with Wild Nacatl. The difference is that you invest 1 mana with Nacatl and 3 with Ball Lightning. When you consider Bolt is 1cc for 3 damage, and that you can cast 3 of those in comparison with Ball Lightning, Ball Lightning seems lackluster.
Again, I've never playtested with Ball Lightning or Bloodbraid Elf, so this is all just my line of thinking. I could be wrong.
In a build like troopa's, could you maybe run lotus cobra? I haven't really tested the card yet but that might help with the bigger curve, especially in getting those bloodbraids.
I guess you could, but its another green card in a red deck, that doesn't really want to play alot of land. It would have to be a much different deck.
I was testing Bloodbraid Elf today, and I was on the fence about it. Sometimes it got stuck in my hand. Costing 4 is big, and it might be too much for the deck. That said, I think it's a really powerful card. I did beat an Ichorid player twice by getting to Bloodbraid Elf, cascading into a hasted guy, and Fireblasting ftw. I know the interaction with Ball Lightning has been thought about already, but I think it's legacy worthy.
The thing is, sometimes you're going to draw more land than you'd hope for. In a burn deck, that's the worst thing that can happen. You need to come up with Gas over and over. It's very possible to see your first 4 land drops, or to get a little flooded. By playing Bloodbraid Elf and Ball Lightning you make that alot better for you, because you have bigger plays to dump that mana into, as opposed to burn with a lower curve that just wouldn't have enough to finish. I think it's an interesting concept at least. Goblin Guide has been stellar, and turn 1 Nacatl is still bomb. Try out Ball Lightning a bit, see if you like it. For all the things it's weak too, at least Mogg Fanatic sucks now, and it's not something that people are going to expect in the first place.
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