Ior Ruin Expedition is obviously bad but Spell Pierce looks really great. I think it will be played in tempo thresh. I dont know if it deserves a spot in landstill. Maybe it can replace Counterspell...but otherwise I like the versatility of hard counters.
@memnarch
Interesting. I usually dont like balance in Landstill.
I dont like the o-rings in your build. How do they work in testing?
Would be wrath/standstill/Path the better choice?
And I think you should play 6 fetchies. F. Conclave and Mutavault are too much - you play 4 wastelands.
@mossivo
I dont get the point with Marsh Flats. You play no swamps and you cant fetch a basic island, which seems much more important for me than the basic plains. At least I would play 1 Marsh Flat and 1 Delta.
3 Mishras looks a little strange but you play 3 decree for the finish which is acceptable.
@Dust bowl
I played dust bowl for several months in my list but I will cut it again for 1/2 wastelands. On the paper it looks really nice when u can screw your opponent with only one land but practically I often see me that I cant tap out in my turn (holding a counter) just to waste a land and see my opponent top decking a land. Wastelands fits in this roll. I can waste the land and play EOT Cunning wish->Enlight. Tutor-> CoW for the screw.
Otherwise dust bowl has its power in the control mirror.
I'm running into alot of mirror and use of Plainswalkers. The O-rings are great. Cheaper then Engineered Explosives and EE can't hit high CC Plainswalkers either. Only up to 3CC so Jace I can hit with EE in my deck. Also its just the versatility for 3 mana is worth it but late game there is the factor of the O-ring leaving play.
Mossivo's counter package basically relies on a single blue to work, while nearly all wincondition, and most board control elements, requires double white to work (not to mention white is a good portion of his sb). In the earlier stages of the game, is far more important for his list to quickly achieve a single blue mana and at least 2 white mana, diminishing the amount of specific white in the deck for the mid-late game, where blue really begins to matter. Having 6 ways to access his specific white i the earlier game is an assurance against aggro and aggrocontrol, so I can see why he want flats instead of deltas (though I'd probably go for a 1/1 split myself, but that's to say that his choice does make sense). 3 mishra is not strange, it's a lot he plays 3 to reduce the amount of uncolored mana producer lands in the effort of stabilizing the manabase. Now with the 3rd decree I see that choice matter much more.Originally Posted by i_need_extra_turn
Maybe because you are using bowl in the wrong way. You don't want to waste "A" land, a generic land. You want to waste MANlands, and that's all. Landstill, in this configuration, is no more a deck that does massive LD, nor it cares. It better focuses on board control. You can think of bowl as the 4th factory if you wish, better defensive than offensive. And now with the 3rd decree, again the choice makes much more sense. Plus bowl allows to play without crucible, which is a gained slot, while waste usually requires crucible to work fine, and it requires multiples to do well, while bowl needs only itslef. Against aggro, you do not really want to make land disruption: the rare case it happens, you would have already won as well (or tempo decks that lose tempo for random screw have already lost, let's put it this way). Certainly, it's happened that I screwed a slow aggroloam with bowl on t4 and some vindicate: it's satisfactory, but it's not the main goal of the deck. Better not focus on LD to profit of the random screw of others, better to stabilize our manabase and care of LD essentially in the control MU, for which Dbowl was designed for, as you well understood.@Dust bowl
I played dust bowl for several months in my list but I will cut it again for 1/2 wastelands. On the paper it looks really nice when u can screw your opponent with only one land but practically I often see me that I cant tap out in my turn (holding a counter) just to waste a land and see my opponent top decking a land. Wastelands fits in this roll. I can waste the land and play EOT Cunning wish->Enlight. Tutor-> CoW for the screw.
Otherwise dust bowl has its power in the control mirror.
Your manabase scares the crap out of me. 10 colorless lands out of 24? This is exacerbated by the fact that your build wants UU on turn 2 and WW shortly thereafter. Also, I would recommend more fetches to maximize Top's effectiveness.
@i_need_the_extra_turns:
I prefer Dust Bowl because it takes up fewer slots and let's you run 4x Factory. Wasteland is much more of a tempo card whereas Dust Bowl is more aligned with the control strategy of Landstill. My biggest concern is that it only takes one opposing Wasteland to eff up that gameplan, but then I guess they're not hitting your Factories/colored mana.
@mossivo:
That latest list is begging for a 4th Standstill now that you have 3 Decree and 3 Factory (which I would bump up to 4 as mentioned above). I agree with others on the 1/1 Delta/Flats split. Lastly, how much better has 1x Path been over 1x Vindicate? FWIW, I like the list a lot.
My list:
Misplayer: I'll look into testing the fourth standstill again. Its been a while since ive run four.Code:4 flooded strand 2 Marsh Flats 4 Tundra 1 und sea 1 scrub 3 island 3 plains 3 mishra 1 dustbowl 1 academy ruins 4 force 4 snare 2 c.s 3 top 3 standstill 3 brainstorm 4 stp 3 ee 2 wrath 1 humility 1 path 1 disk 3 decree 2 elspeth 2 cunning wish sb: 1 pulse 1 pate 1 ray of dist 1 e tutor 2 path 2 relic 3 EP 3 CB 1 cow
Gustha: Took the words out of my mouth.
Memnarch:
No I prefer Dustbowl above wasteland. Wasteland is (quicker) then dustbowl but dustbowl is a repititious effect without wasting an additional slot on COW while also preserving your landbase. Rockout and I actually just had a conversation on this. In order to run wasteland (x3) you need to have a landbase of 24 lands or 23 + E. Dragon. Wasteland acts as a utility spell more then an actual land so nine times out of ten your going to be mana hungry more and also making it difficult to achieve the famous four land goal of land still. When wasteland actually does act as a land you run the problems of non basic hate as it fundamentally makes your land drops weaker (forces you to fix your mana more with non-basic answers.)No wasteland? Its so much quicker then Dustbowl. You need that many basics? You still have counters and ways of stopping B2B and Blood Moon, those matches still don't come up as frequently as Goblins and thresh though. Teamed up with Crucible people tend to want to scoop after that resolves. And also 3 Brainstorm? That card is much to good to only use 3 especially when its the type of card that helps you late or early game when your searching for land / answer. I do agree with 3 Standstill though that card has been treating me well, with enough man lands and wastes you can out wait most any deck.
Keep in mind that this one distinction (Wasteland versus Dustbowl) is a dramatic difference in how I personally play land still.
Playing basic lands is stronger then producing countermagic to handle non-basic land hate.
Also FYI: Good players don't scoop to COW unless theres no out and a wastelock ensures inevitability. Also Cow isn't exactly amazing in the goblins or thresh matchups (Unless its thrashthrashthrash)
The idea with Land Still shouldn't be about playing the waiting game.
Also more manlands doesnt translate into more wins. It does however mean that you are much more susceptible to waste/stifle hozing's.
You're welcome. But please put that 4th standstill into your list. It screams for it.I see 3 viable options:
1) -1 top +1 jace: jace is absurd in the control mirror, and you virtually have no other way to generate CA when you side standstills out (i mean, real CA, not the virtual CA of counterbalance); not hurting with the sb cb.
2) -3 top +1 standstill +2 fof
Straight ol' style. Card quantity over card quality. The deck can support it, plus fof is always broken in the control MU. You should let out cb from the sb for the good ol' MM as well
3) -1 top +1 standstill
Simple. Linear. Not hurting with sb cb. Good with your other deck choices. Don't really need the second top with the 3rd decree.
This time it's your turn to take the words out of my mouth.
I'm having a hard time with straight red sligh at the moment. Does anyone know a good strategy of playing against them? I'm already playing 3x Blue blasts and 3 negates plus an extra explosives in my sb against them but even at 10 life my life total seems to be at risk. my current strategy is fetching for basics to avoid price of progress damage and to hold onto swords for ball lightnings but turn 4 wrath to clear the board always seems to slow. by turn 2 with EE set at 1 my life totals already down to 12-15. What are cards that you guys would side out for this match up? At the moment i side out 3 vindicates, 1 wraths and 3 fact or fiction, leaving in 2 elspeths, 2 wrath and 1 humility as my 4 drops.
My win conditions are 3 factories 2 elspeths, 1 E dragon, 2 decree of justice but it just seems too slow against their fast clock
Ball Lightning? You might want to save a BEB for ball lightning since you don't give them 6 life and be willing to swords your mishra's in response to lethal. I'd advise running either cunning wish for pulse, ajani, or cop: red. The great thing about landstill is its ability to swing huge odds into their favorite post board even more so than any other deck in the format. I've even resorted to ivory mask at times. An idea that is outside the normal realm is something that can throw your opponent off and allow your path to victory easier.
Co-Founder of Team Awesome - I heard Randy Buehler say a while back that good players give themselves the most number of turns to find the answer.
The Source on MTGO - Predator8785 and RockOut
Also, if you're playing black and your opponent plays lots of elementals, bring in engineered plague too...better than wrath...
@rockout: you avatar is too cool!
Yeah, that's a good point. Being able to shut off a total of 24 possible damage from 4 hellspark elementals plus their unearth is a solid reason to bring in plague. I forgot to mention that, I do the same thing.
Co-Founder of Team Awesome - I heard Randy Buehler say a while back that good players give themselves the most number of turns to find the answer.
The Source on MTGO - Predator8785 and RockOut
Ball Lightning is an elemental too :)
Hello friend.
k thanks guys for all the help. At the moment I'm seeing if this sideboard works against my more difficult matchups
2 Crucible of the Worlds
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Circle of Protection Red
2 Ethersworn Cannonist
3 Path to Exile
1 Engineered Explosive
1 tormod's crypt
Thoughts on room for improvement? I've designed it mainly against landstill's more difficult matchups, Combo, Tribal, aggro, and Canadian thresh. I haven't tested against ichorid yet though
The 3 slots im using for cop red could also be something else, runed halo for example
To me I feel that Cannonist is a better answer to combo than Orim's chant because if you chant tendrils in response to their chant they'll just stall and go off protected next turn
This sideboard is incredibly confused.2 Crucible of the Worlds
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Circle of Protection Red
2 Ethersworn Cannonist
3 Path to Exile
1 Engineered Explosive
1 tormod's crypt
why's that?
your running 1 tormod's crypt. Thats a total of ONE graveyard removal in your entire deck. Now if you run west (Im assuming you do) then you still are handing any graveyard deck a bye.2 Crucible of the Worlds
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Circle of Protection Red
2 Ethersworn Cannonist
3 Path to Exile
1 Engineered Explosive
1 tormod's crypt
EE is kind of awkward especially if your running 3 in the main deck (You should be running three.)
cannonist is perfectly fine but if you run cop red and beb I really think your over comiting yourself. Take a look at my list a page or so back and run that. I think youll like its rdw matchup!
2 Crucible of the Worlds
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Circle of Protection Red
2 Ethersworn Cannonist
3 Path to Exile
1 Engineered Explosive
1 tormod's crypt
hmmm let me try to explain my logic behind this and if i'm still overcommitting towards my red match ups i'll change things.
against Thrash i board in 2 crucibles 3 BEB and 1 EE (for 3 EE's total)
against Merfolk i board 3 path to exile
Goblins: 3 BEB, 3 COP red
FDDT: 2 Cannonist, 1 EE
TES: 3 BEB, 2 Cannonist, EE
Ichorid: Crypt, EE
Burn:3 COP Red, 3 BEB
Sligh: 3 COP Red, 3 BEB, 1 EE
So it does look like I'm throwing my Ichorid match up after all. i'll probably take out 1 cop for another tormod's or relic
Last edited by whiteshepherdman; 09-19-2009 at 03:09 AM.
What's wrong with actually running cards that are good in multiple matchups? Ditch the COP: Red and canonists and run Ajani and Engineered Plague instead, drop the blue blasts for negates?
That's what I'd do at least :) The cards you're running here are incredibly narrow and saying a COP: red works against both burn and sligh is kind of silly, as is saying canonist works against doomsday and TES (and don't forget ANT).
Hello friend.
The thing is, when you play red sligh and burn, half of your deck already doesn't matter to them game 1 cause they are just going to burn you to death. playing standstill a lot of the time is a mistake because its just going to give them a new hand. They have more burns than we have counters. I cast standstill only when i can turn 1 swords turn 2 standstill, or when the opponent has at least 2 or 3 cards more than me. In any case they just don't care if you counter their ball lightning or price of progress cause they'll just wait for more burn spells. In the late game, holding force, and negate sitting on 10 life i've still got the man kicked out of me by my little brother who after i counter his REB protected price, uses a forked fireblast and topdecks a lightning bolt to end the game. racing sligh in a damage battle is not going to turn out favorably. We play a ton of 4 drops, bombs but they hardly do anything unless you play humility which is awful in the mirror. Trust me, ive tried it too, my previous sb looked like this
2 Blue elemental blast
3 path to exile
3 negate
2 spell snare
2 crucible
1 EE
1 Relic
1 tormod's crypt
Now in this sb, the relevant cards which i could've used are EE, BEB, negate, path, spell snare, and Relic or tormods if you hate lavamancer or barbarian ring
My reasoning for COP red is that trading their spell with a counter is hardly fair imo. The deck thrives on unfair trades grabbing at least 2 creatures for 1 wrath, playing cyclers under standstill that give you better board position and maintaining card advantage
I'm not saying that my previous SB was perfect, its just that there needs to be a better answer for burn spells. negate hardly makes a difference. Ajani Goldmane would work but cop also works for me against goblins whereas i wouldn't side goldmane against goblins. I've also things like pulse of the fields but it isn't a foolproof solution. Since i don't play a wish list pulse isn't as useful, when i do run it, i have to commit too much mana resources into using it whereas goldmane would give me free lifegain. pulse is unreliable as they can always in response: proceed to burn your life totals away
My question: In your own sideboards, what would you use to stop the life loss from burn?
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Reply With Quote