Team America and Thrash have much better game against LED Ichorid post-board than they do against the LED-less lists simply because those lists run more land. This makes Wasteland, Daze, and to a degree, Stifle more effective, mainly post-board when Ichorid needs to resolve spells to stop their hate. It's also because LED-less lists run more permanent discard outlets, and both of the mentioned decks have a relatively slow clock.Originally Posted by sunshine
The irony here is that neither of these decks have a prayer game one against LED Ichorid, while the slower version makes their disruption more relevant since they have time to use it. And if you land an early discard outlet, or they don't draw their hate post-board, they still don't have a shot. So the truth is that neither rightly runs graveyard hate. Ichorid is pretty easy to dodge, and even if they do run hate, the odds of these decks getting it, and being able to play it in a relevant time against LED versions is so slime that they would actually be doing themselves a disservice in replacing more relevant cards from their sideboard unless they suspect a high metagame concentration of grave-dependant decks. I've beaten Team America after they side in Crypt without ever having a single mana, just because their clock was so slow.
The gist is, with either version against these decks you either hope to land a discard outlet, and just play as if they have no GY hate, don't sideboard, and attempt to blow through what they might have (LED), or play the slow game, and hope they can't burn or Tombstalker you out (LED-less).
~ Team Unicorn Motto
What about Mindslicer instead of Hypno?
Not as good, since you need an additional sac outlet.
And it hits your hand as well, which can be quite bad postboard.
With Entomb unbanned, do you guys think it will be a good addition? I like the fact that I can tutor for basically anything, but I feel that cards like Careful Study and Breakthrough are better at enabling dredge, while I like the reusibility (discarding-wise) of Pimp and Tireless Tribe.
I think Entomb could be a pretty good way in this deck to tutor up an Ancient Grudge. I think Entomb is much better for the Non-LED Version than the LED version though. It'll be something interesting to toy around with and see if it finds a spot.
I am definitely excited to try out Entomb in this deck as well. A lot more relevant here than in the LD version. It's versatility will probably win it a couple slots. Probably not going to end up as a 4 of though.
I’ve made Top8 of a 85-man tournament in Belgium with Ledless Ichorid yesterday.
I played the following:
MD:
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Putrid Imp
4 Tireless Tribe
4 Golgari Grave troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Bridge from Below
3 Breakthrough
4 Cabal therapy
3 Careful Study
4 Narcomoeba
3 Dread Return
1 Cephalid Sage
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
SB:
1 Ancestor’s Chosen
1 Eternal Witness
4 Chain of Vapor
3 Firestorm
4 Ancient Grudge
2 Wispmare
It was the first time I played Ichorid and I only picked up this deck about a month ago…
In the Swiss I went 4-0-3, with wins against Zoo (twice), Recurring Rock and Goblins; drawing with Merfolks and ID with ANT and Goblins.
For the Quarterfinal I got paired against ANT. I managed to take game 1 with double Therapy on turn 2 and going off on turn 3. But game 2 he goes off on his first turn and game 3 on his second. In both games I had an excellent hand which could have combo’ed on turn 2 or 3 but I never got the chance (as expected against ANT).
I was very satisfied with the main deck, the only spots I’m not certain about are my 2 DR targets. I’ve used the Zealot once, although it was quite important as it was against ANT. Sage I think I used twice; once where Witness wouldn’t have cut it (no mana open to play Breakthrough/Study/Coliseum). I’m not really convinced of both; I’m definitely going to try Witness instead of the Sage. I don’t know what I would replace Zealot with. I like Hypnotist but he doesn’t seem to be the best choice for an aggro meta.
MVP’s in the main: Ichorid, Cabal Therapy and especially Tireless Tribe.
I was also quite pleased with the sideboard. I Dread Returned Ancestor’s Chosen 3 times and won each of those games. Grudge is fantastic; I’ve made people pop their Relic early 3 times or so, to then continue dredging through Pimp or Tribe and roll them over with Ichorids and Zombies.
The Witness will move to the main if it turns out to be better than Sage. I did not board in Firestorm a lot while I played several matches where I could have boarded them in, I never really wanted to board in 8 or 9 cards as I feel it disrupts the deck too much. I’m probably wrong here as everybody seems to love Firestorm… I also hardly ever want to take the Tribes out for Firestorms because in games 2 and 3 you really need those permanent discard outlets rather than the one-time discard effect.
This deck is very consistent; I only mulled to 5 once all day and it plays so well through hate. I lost 2 games to hate, one to double Extirpate (on Bridge and Ichorid) and one to Propaganda (most Merfolks don’t run it in their side over here so I only boarded Grudges…). I really like the deck and I’ll probably take it to my upcoming tournaments.
Comments, questions, tips are very welcome.
Thx,
Zjef
Congratz on the finish =).
I recently began to like 2DR/1 Target, but I guess thats up to the person^^
Otherwise the main looks extremely solid.
I'm not a fan of the board though.
I do not like Witness at all and 6 spells for Leyline seem a little overboard.
How often when you Dread Returned Sage or Zealot could you have just won with GGT instead?
How was Ancestor's Chosen? How often would it have been better/worse as Sphinx of the Steel Wind?
I don't think Entomb deserves a slot. It's too situational, and I'd rather just have an extra copy of whatever hate card I was tutoring up instead.
Magic Level 3 Judge
Southern USA Regional Coordinator
Thanks.
I like 3 DR simply because if you have 2 Bridges and you can flashback a dread return, you usually win so I want to get one in my yard with the first couple of dredges...
I switched the 4th Firestorm to a Witness a couple of days before the tournament as I thought it would gave me a bit more options in game 2 and 3 but I boarded Witness once and never used it...
Wispmares and CoV are not only there for Leylines as I really didn't expect to face many Leylines but I did expect a lot of Landstill and Rock (Moat, Humility, Deed and random stuff like Propaganda in Merfolks).
I only DR'ed Zealot once but it was very important that one time as it was against combo and if I had to DR a Troll or anything else, I probably would have lost because he probably could have gone off in his next turn. However that was the only matchup that Zealot was relevant so I definitely want to give something else a try but the only thing I can think of is Sadistic Hypnotist and I think it will really depend on the meta as to how good he is...
Witness or Sphinx of Lost Thruths will probably replace the Sage.
Ancestor's Chosen was awesome. I wouldn't replace him with Sphinx of the Steel Wind or any other fatty. If they have a StP or PtE for your fattie, you still lose while if you reanimate the Chosen it almost always buys you enough time to beat them with Ichorids, Zombies or maybe even Moebas. I DR'ed the Chosen once when I was at 6 life when my opponent would have been able to deal me 2 with a Kird Ape the next turn and then Fireblast for the win so he definitely won me that game.
I agree with you on Entomb. When I first heard about the unbannings, I thought great a tutor for Ichorid but now I do think it is too situational and the problem is also what to take out for it. If you play less dredgers (Thugs) then it will become harder to chain dredges and you'll lose a creature to return Ichord. Maybe 1 DR could be replaced with Entomb but other than that I wouldn't know what to take out.
Entomb gets you a Grave-Troll to start dredging, which is pretty much the point of all the setup cards. I understand it's not reusable like PImp and doesn't draw cards like Study, but it's the only card in the deck that can start dredging all by itself, and post-sideboard it very importantly deals with Crypt/Relic on a one-for-one-basis via Grudge, which none of the other setup spells can do.
I also don't get how Entomb can be "too situational" when it can fetch so many different cards for so many different situations. There might be disadvantages to Entomb, but "too situational" isn't among them.
georgjorgeGeistreich sind schon die anderen.
That and it helps you rebuild after having your gy is removed.
Just out of curiosity, for the people decidedly in favor of Entomb, what do you propose Entomb would take the place of? You're most often going to get a dredger with it but obviously you can't just swap out 4 dredgers for Entombs.
awesome
Know what also helps rebuilding after your graveyard is removed? Keeping a dredger in hand. We run all of these 1cc discard outlets for a reason: so we don't have to dump our entire hand into the yard whenever we want to dredge.
Entomb is only useful in your opening hand, and is worse than all the cards that it could replace. I cannot possibly see inclusion in the maindeck.
It could be interesting in the sideboard to run a toolbox of Flashback cards + 3-4 Entomb, but that probably also sucks and is worse than current configurations.
Granted your point is valid, however entomb works as a great top deck in those situations and sometimes our discard outlet has been dealt with. But meh, I suppose that situation is ummm...rather situational. Still, a little testing couldn't hurt.
Entomb is probably better in the LED version, where it can search for Deep Analysis when you have LED and dredger in hand, or for dredger when you have LED and Deep Analysis.
There's some other not so obvious interactions:
- Searching for Dread Return/Finisher
- Searching for Bridge from Below in response to removal
- Searching for hate game 2/3, sometimes you just flip too many Bridges/Narcomoebas before flipping the Grudge and that hampers your aggro capabilities after they Crypt all your combo pieces
In the non-LED version, both Putrid Imp and Tireless Tribe are better than Entomb.
Funny that in the LED thread, they said it would work better in LEDless DredgeIt's just hard to believe that the mighty Entomb is not going to find a place in either decks....
I'm going to play a tournament next Saturday and I want to try LedLess Ichorid, but I have some questions and would be great if someone reply them:
- If you get a hand without lands but with a dredger, you keep it?
- I don't have Firestorm. Which sideboard must I try? I like the Duress vs combo but don't know if I can use them vs any other deck.
- Why some players splits ray of revelation and wispmares?
- Nobody test the Eternal Witness in the Sage slot? Return a Coliseum and play it it's very similar to return a Sage to play (if you have the U).
- What must I side in the Mirror? Led and Non-Led.
Thanks
On the play, definitely not. On the draw, it depends on the matchup, but generally no. I don't think you're fast enough if you just dredge once per turn. The deck mulligans extremely well, so there's no reason not to go to 6. I had a ton of mulligans this past week at my weekly Legacy, but I also went 3-0 through multiple mulligans to 5.
Depends on what you expect to face. I mean, it's kind of silly to say "Well I can't find these cards to SB against beatdown decks, so I'll just stock up on extra anti-combo hate instead". Leyline of the Void is probably your second best bet.
Depends on how many slots they have and what they expect to face. Wispmare is much much better at fighting Leyline, and Ray of Revelation is much much better at fighting other stuff.
Personally I don't run either. Test it yourself and see what you like better.
Depends what hate you expect. Richard Feldman used to just side Leyline in against the LED mirror because you were better at being a shitty creature deck than they were. In the non-LED mirror, you may need a few Chain of Vapor or Ray of Revelation or something in addition to Leylines.
If people just have Flame-Kin Zealot in game1 to beat fast aggro and combo, why not just maindeck the Ancestor's Chosen? It would save a sideboard slot.
Also, there's a big problem with Entomb. I get that you want it because you can start dredging with it. But I wouldn't keep hands with just a 1-shot discard outlet and a dredger (no different than DDD or One With Nothing). And hands that look like land, land, Putrid Imp, Entomb, 3x blank are miserable. If that Entomb gets countered, you lose, whereas if you keep land, land, Imp, Study, Dredger, 2x blank you can easily keep that. In other words, Entomb is deceptive and you can't always rely on it to tutor up a dredger.
Magic Level 3 Judge
Southern USA Regional Coordinator
I disagree with this, but to be fair I think I choose to go the DDD route more often than most. Even with an outlet and the mana to play it I will often opt not to (generally this is only on the draw, and we're assuming an opponent that is unknown or representing blue). Especially with the LED-less versions it is often the case that you won't be dredging more than once per turn for a while anyway. DDD gets there a lot more often than having your only discard outlet countered does.
As for Eternal Witness in the Sage (now Sphinx) slot: Witness's stock rises and falls depending on your sideboard. Currently, a single Witness is my only "pure" Dread Return target. However, I think you could make a strong argument for not playing Witness at all if your sideboard did not contain any cards that need to be played from your hand.
awesome
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