This. Also, you don't use all of the cards in your library when playing, so what is the issue in milling 30-40 cards? I'm doing it all the time. Generally speaking I see like 10-12 cards total in a single game. Arc-Slogger can trade those useless 40 cards for 8 dmg, which is almost half of your opponent's life total. Combine this with a 4/5 body which steals the other 12 life, and you have obtained victory.Originally Posted by FoulQ
0.05.14 [Digital Devil] <Digital Devil> Ach! Hans, run! It's the Tarmogoyf!
0.05.17 [Hans (GER)] <Hans (GER)> ...
0.05.20 [<System>] <System> Player Lost
like I said, I'm not saying slogger is bad in any way, I just happen to prefer consistency to general utility, and I have never lost a game because of dropping arc-slogger, I have however lost because of a top-decked slogger that couldn't be played --> no hellbent --> dragon swings for 3-5 instead of lethal..
I use pyrokenisis in the sb to take care of merfolk/goblins/whatever, I like that strategy because in facilitates hellbent, I also use jitte's in the mb, I like it a lot. I'm not opposed to using slogger ever again, but currently I don't run it.
Saying "I never lost a game because I dropped Arc-Slogger" says to me you're either wrong or haven't played many games at all since doing so.
Now, I'm not making this argument because I think Arc-Slogger's fantastic. I'm making this argument because Arc-Slogger decides games. He'll lose you games from being unplayable, and he'll win you games from being an utterly decimating 3-turn clock from hell or an inexorable force that mows through all your opponent's defenders.
If you drop Arc-Sloggers, you've lost games because of it. You've admittedly probably won games because of it also, but you've lost games because of it. You just don't know it.
Really quick on the land destruction discussion, has anyone tested Seismic Spike from Ravnica? Its 2RR cost fits nicely with tomb/city and it can offset its own tempoloss by accelerating you into a creature, so its net cost is only 2.
Flowstone flood also doesn't look too too bad (if your library's a resource, why not life too?) since it helps with hellbent as well (I imagine only after you've played all the important stuff in your hand since it's random).
Or was it decided that LD isn't necessary/ would damage the deck too much?
Great success!
It's not that the LD approach is awful, per se (A teammate of mine has been doing amazing with a DS/Ponza hybrid), but Seismic Spike is a poor choice. The double red makes it an overcosted Stone Rain, and the mana bonus isn't something you can capitalize on well enough to truly profit.
Avalanche Riders, to me, would be the better choice of the two.
Taco, you have any interest in grabbing your friend's list and posting it here perchance?
I know I am very interested.
I don't actually know the exact list off the top of my head. I'll have to get it next time I see him. I know it runs Avalanche Riders, Pillage, and actually runs a Mox Diamond/Crucible of Worlds/Wasteland shell, but also runs Magus of the Moon, Arc-Slogger, and Rakdos Pit Dragon.
All aspects of my brain say that his list is very subpar, but he's won more than a handful of games against every deck I own with it, so there you go.
What about your list? Is it the same as the one at the beginning of the thread? DS seems like a pretty standardized build for the past 2 years- has really nothing of interest been released since then (and somehow this deck can remain a competitive sleeper)?
Great success!
Sounds like modern day, red 5/3 from an alternate time line. It doesn't run Crystal Vein, does it?
Fortunately no.
Honestly, I haven't been playing Dragon Stompy much recently. The emergence of Zoo and more decks packing Aether Vial have soured me on it at the moment. When I have been testing it, it's been trying wacky shit to see if I could rekindle my interest in the deck, ranging from the version where everything costs 3 to maindeck Flametongue Kavu to various other shenanigans.
I came to the conclusion that if I ran it again seriously, however, I'd maindeck Powder Keg. Keg deals with every Moon-dodging 1-drop that I see, ranging from Aether Vial to Birds of Paradise to Noble Hierarch, and it picks of random nuisances like Goyf and Confidant as well.
I don't have a list at the moment to back that statement up, but I'll come up with one later when I get time.
If you're just looking for a 1-drop-solution, I'd also consider EE. Costs 1 more mana, but can be used the turn it's played. On the other hand... Goofy is pretty safe of EE, while it would be at least possible to blow him off with Keg.
All of this went through my head already. And your ending argument is why I picked Keg.
The only real plus for EE is that you can lead with a Mountain and not a 2-drop land to get it down on turn one, meaning you don't heave to jeopardize your manabase if you've got a City.
I've just about given up on DS. I just hate the inconsistancy so much. I've played it in 3 30+ people tournaments and went 2-3, 3-2, 3-2. Granted I'm not a good player but its not my fault if I only draw 1 threat that gets delt with then I top deck garbage for 10 turns until I die... it is so frustrating. The first time I played 4 slogers and went 2-3, then I ran 2/2 slogger/kavu and finally slogerless and it didn't matter. I just can't get consistant draws. I'm very interested in the Ponza list too because back when I first started I played ponza in Type 2 when riders were type two with cave-in, stone rain, pillage, tectonic break, lightning dragon etc, lol. Ponza is my fav.
@Taco
Well, considering my worst tourney finish has been 5-2 (lots of mistakes that day) I think I would have a fair understanding of the deck, and as to whether or not I have lost because I dropped slogger, and that answer is no, I lose because of player error
Has anyone changed anything since zendi came out? my list is still pretty much the same(no slogger), but with zoo becoming more prominent I might be making some room for the guy, at least sb, have to test more. Anyway, I think (at least in my experience locally) a resolved blood moon is still gg for most decks.
Why don't you guys play Su-Chi in the deck? Yes, it used to suck before when mana burn existed. But now that mana burn is a thing of the past, Su-Chi is awesome. You don't have to worry about being colorscrewed (only drawing Tombs and Cities), if you played Su-Chi.
Wait, so you're playing Lotus Petal in the deck? Don't you get mana flooded. Why not play Flametoungue Kavu. It seems like it's just begging to played in a deck like this. It is afterall, one of the top 10 best red creatures ever printed?
It seems like you're playing Lotus Petal because you're getting colorscrewed too often with this deck. I understand, but if you're dreading getting killer hands with stuff like Chalice or Trinisphere without the Ancient Tombs, why not instead play Su-Chi instead.
I play the petal, because it improves consistency, turn 1 dragons/big plays, and keeps hellbent if turn 1/2 you dump your hand to get RPD in play then topdeck Arc-slogger or something the next turn and have no way to play it so you don't have hellbent and you swing for 3-5 instead of 6-12... thats why I play petal, to keep my hand clear, even with 3sphere in play, you most times have 3 mana to play a petal or mox, but 4-5 can be tricky, so thats why I dropped the slogger initially to keep hellbent more consistently.
su-chi seems bad, what are you going to do with 4 colorless, most times he'll die on the opponents turn, just seems sub-optimal, although I have never tested it, so maybe I'm missing something, but its almost like playing masticore, he goes against the theme of the deck of not having a hand then dies the following turn because you can't discard, I would rather have RPD and the Raiders turned on than masticore in play, FTK would be decent.
Petal seems like it makes an already inconsistent deck even more inconsistent, by making it more likely that you will have hands where you're mana flooded, or have no credible threats. Why not just play 2 Mountains and 2 Arc Slogger or FTK or Su-Chi some other threat instead?
Moutains are nice because they actually stick around.
What Su-Chi does is make all those hands with Ancient Tomb, City of Traitors, Chalice and Trinisphere but no colored mana sources keepable. If you have a Su-Chi in hand, you can keep such a hand.
Actually, a hand where you have a single Blood Moon or Magus and Simian Spirit Guide to cast them with, but only colorless mana sources beyond that becomes keepable too. A Blood Moon followed by Chalice or Trini followed by Su-Chi will win you most games.
Su-Chi doesn't need you to discard anything. It doesn't die if your hand is empty. Are you confusing it with Masticore or some other card maybe?
What I mean is not that you have use for those four colorless mana he generates when he dies. What I mean is that it no longer matters.
Back in the day. Everytime Su-Chi dies, you lose 4 life because of mana burn. This was a huge con against the card. Now that mana burn has been eliminated, he becomes a lot better than he used to be.
You seem to think Su-Chi is a legitimate threat as a 4/4. He is not.
Also, a hand where you lay a moon effect and "don't have colored sources," well now you obviously have colored sources.
Su-Chi does not add red mana. I'm very confused here why he is even being considered? The deck only has room for one 4cc beater and one 5cc beater, really. There is very little wiggle room, and some people don't even max out arc sloggers (I'm not getting into that again, however). How is Su-Chi's four colorless mana added usually during an opponent's turn really going to help us? His 4/4 body is also really not that impressive in modern legacy.
Gathan Raiders being a 5/5 is really a big difference than a 4/4 in legacy. He also helps us reach hellbent for our RPD, one of our fastest if not the fastest win condition in the deck. Su-Chi adds mana we can't take that much advantage of. The problem is not being able to cast arc-slogger in the deck, I don't know where you are getting the idea that we need 4 colorless mana for something??
If you could just clarify this. I don't see why he is even a consideration. At least lotus petal (although I would never play it) has at least some merit.
Last edited by FoulQ; 10-23-2009 at 05:23 PM.
I dont play this deck anymore but has anyone tested Chandra Ablaze?
TEAM AWESOME
Well, at least we smell better
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